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faith
- Thread starter RON35951
- Start date
If my statements are "philosophical" and not scripture, you reveal that you do not know and understand scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]I would like to point out that if someone I highly respected said that the Bible was all screwed up, they would cease to have my respect not the Bible. Forgive me, but if you would present evidence (example: scripture references) with your statements people would tend not to call them philosophical. People cannot remain open-minded (and teachable) unless you prove your statements via some form of authoritative (preferably Biblically) based reference. You shouldn’t assume people know what scripture you are referencing.
"The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."(2 Timothy 2:24-26)
I have been asking questions such as, “Can you explain why Jesus says that we are slaves to sin or why Paul says "dead in your transgressions", so that I would not have a pre-conception but you haven’t answered many of my questions. Maybe I should be more to the point.
Do you believe?
1 – That man is capable of choosing Christ without God’s intervention. That’s the way God created man. Man is not so dead that he cannot make a choice.
2 – That man is dead in sin and cannot choose God apart from God’s “prevenient” grace, which he gives every man to bring them into a neutral state like Adam was in before the fall.
3- That man is a slave to sin because he is spiritually dead and must first be made spiritually alive before he can willingly and freely choose Christ.
Greetings, ILUVLIGHT! (BTW: I like your handle)
You said,
I didn’t say that there was such an order. Being raised from spiritual death is not justification, it is a means unto justification.
“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
The "And" denotes a separate action of God putting His Spirit within us. God changes our hearts because if He doesn’t we would all be in hell.
“The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.” (Genesis 8:21)
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:6-8)
Natural man will never freely and willfully choose Christ because that man’s will is in slavery; because, he is spiritually dead. God must free that man from his bondage to sin and he does so by a spiritual rebirth. This enables man to freely and willingly choose Christ in faith.
I hope this clarifies what I was saying.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Drew,
You asked,
Do you believe?
Define prevenient Grace! The God of the Bible has but one grace!
You asked,
Do you believe?
NO! because if God did not intervene, we would not have a Word of God! We would not have a Savior, We would not have an Atoner, We would not have everlasting life. There would be nothing for man to choose! Yes, God did give man, in the creation the ability and capability to hear God's word, to choose, and yes, to repent from sin! Every man who ever lived had the same ability and Capability, there are no exceptions so long as the person has a brain that person has the freedom to use it as he sees fit!
NO! man is not dead for any reason. However, before the Atonement for sin performed by God the son, man was destined to death because of sin! There was no way to escape the penalty for sin. But because Jesus atoned for sin, Sin is no longer a factor in man's salvation. NO man faces death because of sin, the penalty has been paid! So NOW Salvation boils down to this. Those who have faith in God have everlasting life! Those who lack faith in God get cast into the lake of fire, not because of sin, but because they lack faith in God.
Define prevenient Grace! The God of the Bible has but one grace!
NO, Man is not a slave to sin because he is spiritually dead! ALL born again persons still sin, yet they are said to be "alive in the spirit"! So what's their excuse! Your premise is "Stinkin' thinkin'" baloney! All that is necessary for any man anywhere in the world to be saved is for that man to have faith in God, whether or not he still sins! Sins are deeds in the same manner that works of righteousness are deeds. All deeds will be judged but the person who does the deeds is judged only by his Faith in God. You have it? YOU LIVE. You don't have it, YOU DIE!
Wes,
Things are starting to become a little clearer now. Thank you for answering the questions. I have asked questions so that I would not make false assumptions about what you believe, giving you the benefit of stating for yourself your own beliefs. I don’t know why you do not show the same respect for me.
“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.”
(2 Corinthians 3:18 NASB)
As for not being dead in sin or a slave to sin can you please reconcile the following scripture reference (without negating / contradicting it) to your beliefs (please use only scripture as your authoritative reference)? Please explain what Paul is saying here.
Jesus did come to save sinners and I would agree to his work being finished in that he atoned for “His people”; He didn’t just make it possible for people to be saved He actually saved them. Christ bore the sins for precisely those He intended to reserve for Himself.
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21 NASB)
“By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?” (Isaiah 53:8 NASB)
Salvation is freely offered but only those who come will be saved. Who will come?
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40 NASB)
As a side note: your postings addressed to me lack significantly in scripture reference. This is why I make such claims that your statements are philosophical. Please prove your accusations and statements with scripture references. Scripture must harmonize and we cannot take only the verses that suit our beliefs and throw the rest out.
Things are starting to become a little clearer now. Thank you for answering the questions. I have asked questions so that I would not make false assumptions about what you believe, giving you the benefit of stating for yourself your own beliefs. I don’t know why you do not show the same respect for me.
I never said that man who is considered “alive in the spirit” no longer sins. That is a misconception/misrepresentation on your part. We are being restored to the image of God. Man will continue sinning until we get to heaven and are given glorified bodies, made perfect in Christ.
“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.”
(2 Corinthians 3:18 NASB)
As for not being dead in sin or a slave to sin can you please reconcile the following scripture reference (without negating / contradicting it) to your beliefs (please use only scripture as your authoritative reference)? Please explain what Paul is saying here.
Why does a man have to pay the penalty twice then? If his sin is atoned for, why does he die for not having faith? By this statement I can only assume that you mean that all sin is atoned for except the sin of unbelief. What then atones for unbelief? If you say belief, that is a works doctrine. If a person believes again, believing is restored but what atones for the sin of unbelief?
Jesus did come to save sinners and I would agree to his work being finished in that he atoned for “His people”; He didn’t just make it possible for people to be saved He actually saved them. Christ bore the sins for precisely those He intended to reserve for Himself.
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21 NASB)
“By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?” (Isaiah 53:8 NASB)
Salvation is freely offered but only those who come will be saved. Who will come?
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40 NASB)
As a side note: your postings addressed to me lack significantly in scripture reference. This is why I make such claims that your statements are philosophical. Please prove your accusations and statements with scripture references. Scripture must harmonize and we cannot take only the verses that suit our beliefs and throw the rest out.
Wes Outwest
New Member
If anyone makes the assistance of grace [to believe the gospel] depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). - Council of Orange 529 AD
Wes Outwest
New Member
I agree Kiffen, But Grace is not the gift, grace is the behavior of the gift giver! God has given us the gift and is graciously waiting for each man to accept or reject it. Man's eternity depends on his choice!
Believing the gospel comes from hearing the gospel, with "hearing" meaning "accepting the truth of it" and putting one's only possession which is faith in that truth.
Faith is the only thing about man that God did not give as a gift, he gave man the capacity to possess faith, but faith comes from within man through hearing the word of God. Another term for Faith is persuasion, I am persuaded that Jesus is God the son, the Christ come in the flesh to dwell among men teaching them of the Father, then atoning for Sin so that those who do believe in the Father, can have the promised everlasting life. That persuasion is FAITH, and God did not install that faith in me, he gave me every reason to Possess it in myself.
Believing the gospel comes from hearing the gospel, with "hearing" meaning "accepting the truth of it" and putting one's only possession which is faith in that truth.
Faith is the only thing about man that God did not give as a gift, he gave man the capacity to possess faith, but faith comes from within man through hearing the word of God. Another term for Faith is persuasion, I am persuaded that Jesus is God the son, the Christ come in the flesh to dwell among men teaching them of the Father, then atoning for Sin so that those who do believe in the Father, can have the promised everlasting life. That persuasion is FAITH, and God did not install that faith in me, he gave me every reason to Possess it in myself.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Drew;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Or does it mean it is all inclusive. If so then all men will be saved and you are no longer a Calvinist but a universalist.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
It is a stretch to say that all that comes to Christ is given to Him before Hand. While those who were given to Christ were the disciples. The all there as described by Calvinist doesn't mean it is all inclusive. As in;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Or does it mean it is all inclusive. If so then all men will be saved and you are no longer a Calvinist but a universalist.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Part of the problem is to differentiate between, "Faith," dogma, and "faith" as comming from the same root word as "believe," "belief."
What is a belief but a conclusion? "I believe" is the logical equivalent to "I have concluded."
Why do people believe or conclude . . . things? Because they have been taught from childhood (indoctronated)or have made personal observations or have learn of other people's observations i.e. collected data.
What do people do when reveiving data from whatever the source? First, we make a probability analysis as to the validity of the data. Second, is there is a probablity the data may be correct we make a personal risk analysis.
For example, "Pascal's Wager." For a Catholic living in France there was very little risk in accepting and acting upon the teaching of the Catholic Church. If Pascal had been a Jew living in Catholic France at that time the risk calculus would have been much different.
What is a belief but a conclusion? "I believe" is the logical equivalent to "I have concluded."
Why do people believe or conclude . . . things? Because they have been taught from childhood (indoctronated)or have made personal observations or have learn of other people's observations i.e. collected data.
What do people do when reveiving data from whatever the source? First, we make a probability analysis as to the validity of the data. Second, is there is a probablity the data may be correct we make a personal risk analysis.
For example, "Pascal's Wager." For a Catholic living in France there was very little risk in accepting and acting upon the teaching of the Catholic Church. If Pascal had been a Jew living in Catholic France at that time the risk calculus would have been much different.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi BillWald;
Good points about faith.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Good points about faith.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
Faith is more than thinking and hoping that I am one of the elect.
Faith is a believe and trust in the promises of God such as John 3:16. Sinners can believe in the concept of Christ's forgiveness and know that He will forgive, but trusting in Jesus is a matter of the conscience, mind, and the will. Believing about Christ is one thing; trusting that he will save me is quite another concept and step.
When we personally receive Christ we can know that we have passed from death into life. [John 5:24 & Romans 8:16]
If you do not have assurance of faith you are either unsaved, have a wrong view of God (theology) or you are a Christian who is 'double minded' in the sense that you are dabbling in sin. A Christian can never be sampling sin and have inner peace at the same time.
Faith is a believe and trust in the promises of God such as John 3:16. Sinners can believe in the concept of Christ's forgiveness and know that He will forgive, but trusting in Jesus is a matter of the conscience, mind, and the will. Believing about Christ is one thing; trusting that he will save me is quite another concept and step.
When we personally receive Christ we can know that we have passed from death into life. [John 5:24 & Romans 8:16]
If you do not have assurance of faith you are either unsaved, have a wrong view of God (theology) or you are a Christian who is 'double minded' in the sense that you are dabbling in sin. A Christian can never be sampling sin and have inner peace at the same time.
I concede the poor choice of words. I was referring to your statements, not scripture, that’s why you can’t find the basis in scripture. What your statements appear to be saying are, 1) man sinned, the penalty death, “man was destined to death because of sin!” [I certainly agree but I must also add that man still is destined to death unless he is justified by faith. ] 2) Jesus atoned for every sin, “But because Jesus atoned for sin, Sin is no longer a factor in man's salvation. NO man faces death because of sin, the penalty has been paid!” [I agree that Jesus atoned for the sin of those He intended, but your statement concerning ALL men seems to be the mistake]
I believe you use dictionaries.
Atoned
ATO'NED, pp. Expiated; appeased; reconciled.
- Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
That means there are no more penalties as you have already said. God’s wrath has been appeased, as there has been reconciliation. This is consistent with your use of the word.
3) Man must die for unbelief/lack of faith. “All deeds will be judged but the person who does the deeds is judged only by his Faith in God. You have it? YOU LIVE. You don't have it, YOU DIE!” Here’s where your logic seems to come to double jeopardy, as man must die for unbelief while his sins have already been paid for. Atoned is reconciled, so was your use of the word “Atoned” a poor choice of words? Would you like to rephrase this?
You went on to say that:
Why do some men still go to hell? Aren't they paying the penalty? Do you believe that all men will be saved? [Universalism]
This is consistent with your use of “atoned” and it’s proper definition. I really am curious, Wes, do you believe “ALL” men will eventually be saved? Your very own words are saying that, yet you also say about faith, “You have it? YOU LIVE. You don't have it, YOU DIE!” You are contradicting yourself, so I ask which is it?
I have already stated that I believe “Jesus is God the Son”. Why do you continue slandering me with your premise?
Please explain why a man who doesn’t believe dies if ALL of his sin has been atoned for? See also my comment to your next question.
You asked me “Why do you call belief a work?” Let me explain by quoting a scripture verse that everyone should be able to recognize and understand clearly as stating the means of salvation.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NASB)
or if you prefer the King James Version,
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV)
The Greek word translated “believes / believeth” is pist-yoo'-own (I’m sorry I haven’t figured out how to display Greek through this board, you’ll have to do with the phonetics.) It is a “VERB” which denotes action, a present active participle. I would agree that “belief” is a noun, but you have to obtain the state of “belief” through… “Believing”, which is an action, a work, even by your own words:
The same thing goes for faith. There must be a process that brings one to faith. You cannot have faith without believing.
You appear to be picking at my words.
I would agree that unbelief is the absence of belief/faith; however, concerning your statement “Unbelief is not sin”:
If unbelief is not sin, why then is unbelief punished by DEATH? Men die and spend eternity in hell because of… SIN.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23 NASB)
All who hear the word of God, the teachings of the apostles, must make a conscious decision about what they have heard. The must decide for themselves if Faith in God is a good thing for them. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but who will come to Jesus believing? Sorry, Wes, you just negated scripture, the John 6:37-40 scripture reference that I gave earlier. Instead of putting it all into harmony with your passage you purposely leave John 6:37-40 out favoring John 17:20-22 because it fits your tradition. That’s eisegesis friend.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40 NASB)
You’ve been using more scripture… Thank you! But I am still seeing the failure to harmonize other scripture references. You cannot pick and chose what fits your tradition and reject the rest. Please bring John 6:37-40 into harmony with your statements?
You said,
What causes belief? Is it mere luck? Is one person not as smart as another? Why does one man believe when a person hearing the same message didn’t believe? Does one make better use of God’s grace than the next? You said that you could reconcile this earlier, but you never used scripture, just philosophical discussion. Doesn’t God’s Word have something important to say about why a man believes? I believe and have shown that it does. Man will believe when God enables man by freeing him from the bondage of sin. This does not mean that man will cease to sin, it means that he is no longer incapable of pleasing God.
You still haven’t reconciled the passages I quoted as stating man is a slave to sin / dead in sin; however, I would be happy if you would just give an exposition of John 6:36-45
It is a stretch to say that all that comes to Christ is given to Him before Hand. While those who were given to Christ were the disciples. The all there as described by Calvinist doesn't mean it is all inclusive. As in;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Or does it mean it is all inclusive. If so then all men will be saved and you are no longer a Calvinist but a universalist.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Drew;
Atonement In Original Greek;
katallagê "exchange" Entry in LSJ or Middle Liddell
katallagên fem acc sg attic epic ionic
Frequency in other Authors Greek Word Search
Corpus Words Max. Inst. Freq./10K Min. Inst. Freq./10K
New Testament 137853 4 0.29 4 0.29
Greek Texts 4851049 13 0.03 12 0.02
If you think about it this is much clearer about what it actually means.
Christ exchanged Him Self for us as punishment for our sins.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
You cannot define what was originally written in Ancient Greek with an English Dictionary. This why Calvinist believe that predestination is unalterable. It's plainly misleading because Original Greek is a pure language with out multiple meanings for words. Only the root meaning of a word was understood.
Atonement In Original Greek;
katallagê "exchange" Entry in LSJ or Middle Liddell
katallagên fem acc sg attic epic ionic
Frequency in other Authors Greek Word Search
Corpus Words Max. Inst. Freq./10K Min. Inst. Freq./10K
New Testament 137853 4 0.29 4 0.29
Greek Texts 4851049 13 0.03 12 0.02
If you think about it this is much clearer about what it actually means.
Christ exchanged Him Self for us as punishment for our sins.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Drew;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Really and just where do you see the context that supports only a few will be given. There is none here, no adj. So show me where that context is oh noble Calvinist
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
RC;
I'm surprized at you. Here you are using a narrative. Will wonders never cease.
This is how I know they were all saved because everyone of them was appointed to eternal life.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
I'm surprized at you. Here you are using a narrative. Will wonders never cease.
Notice it doesn't say some of the Gentiles began rejoicing. They all believed because we are appointed to eternal life. All men can believe. You keep claiming that they can't but fail to show proof.
This is how I know they were all saved because everyone of them was appointed to eternal life.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
You cannot define what was originally written in Ancient Greek with an English Dictionary. This why Calvinist believe that predestination is unalterable. It's plainly misleading because Original Greek is a pure language with out multiple meanings for words. Only the root meaning of a word was understood.
Atonement In Original Greek;
katallagê "exchange" Entry in LSJ or Middle Liddell
katallagên fem acc sg attic epic ionic
Frequency in other Authors Greek Word Search
Corpus Words Max. Inst. Freq./10K Min. Inst. Freq./10K
New Testament 137853 4 0.29 4 0.29
Greek Texts 4851049 13 0.03 12 0.02
If you think about it this is much clearer about what it actually means.
Christ exchanged Him Self for us as punishment for our sins.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Hey Mike, (or would you prefer ILUVLIGHT)
I never said "few" and I have already shown by the immediate context "those the father gives". The immediate context explains that "all" is referring via “that” to the grouping of "those the father gives". Wow, I can even do it without grammatical terminology, which should make it less confusing right?
Something tells me that your definition of "Context" is different than mine. Would you be willing to explain your thoughts on good hermeneutical practices, especially on how to keep things in context? It might help me to understand where you are coming from. Thanks for your time.
I never said "few" and I have already shown by the immediate context "those the father gives". The immediate context explains that "all" is referring via “that” to the grouping of "those the father gives". Wow, I can even do it without grammatical terminology, which should make it less confusing right?
Something tells me that your definition of "Context" is different than mine. Would you be willing to explain your thoughts on good hermeneutical practices, especially on how to keep things in context? It might help me to understand where you are coming from. Thanks for your time.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Drew
It does not say those that the Father gives me.
It says;
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
It doesn't imply any special groupexcept the disciples.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
It does not say those that the Father gives me.
It says;
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
It doesn't imply any special groupexcept the disciples.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike