faith

Thanks Mike, let me move the quotation mark over one word as I intended it. Oh, and look, I duplicated the error in the next sentence too. Let me fix that. There, that's better. I guess that is what I get for copying/pasting. There, all done.

I never said "few" and I have already shown by the immediate context those "the father gives". The immediate context explains that "all" is referring via “that” to the grouping of those "the father gives".

 

Hi Drew;

I apreciate humor did someone help you with this

Yes but those that the Father gives have already been given in;

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Those that were given were the disciples. The disciple were destined to be who they were and they all accepted there destiny except Judas. He resisted it. Yet even that was predetermined and as well accepted it but afterward regretted it and commited suicide I think because he knew he made a big mistake.
Are you trying to say that everyone who is saved is given before he has faith?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

rc,

You said,

This is the error that all Calvinists fall into when proof texting their ideas. You need to study before you speak, with all due respect to you as a person.

This kind of tactic we would expect out of a first year Bible College student. And then they want you to explain the verse to them. Probably you too.

Check other commentaries and the various Greek words before you comment. After you have done your best, I'll touch base with you and give you my understanding of said verse.

Best regards brother . . .

 

The scripture tells it this way: Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God. It is not dogma, it is not lifetime teaching, it is nothing but Hearing the knowledge from the Word of God and drawing conclusions based on that knowledge.

Believing is not a gift of God it is a command from God to those whom he created ALL mankind, in whom he instilled the ability to believe. We all have that ability!

Believing being what FAITH is must mean that We are commanded by God to have faith, therefore it is not a gift of God but something that we his created beings MUST POSSESS in order to be saved by God.

 

Drew said,

NO I would not like to rephrase. Sin has been atoned by Jesus, therefore Sin is no longer a factor in man's Salvation! Salvation is through FAITH ALONE. Salvation was enabled by Jesus atoning for ALL SIN in ALL TIMES. If the penalty had not been Paid by Jesus, NO MAN could received Eternal life, because he still faces the penalty for sin, which is...DEATH! You cannot have everlasting life if you are under the death penalty! The penalty has been removed from mankind, therefore, by believing in God the son, you pass from death into life. No man is under the death penalty for sin. But many are under the death penalty because they refuse to believe in God the Son.

That leaves FAITH! God the Son says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish (face death) but have everlasting life (the Free gift of God to those who believe. So if you have faith in God, you live. If you do not have faith in God, you die...but the death of the one who has no faith is not due to sins it is due to lack of faith, which is something you are supposed to possess by hearing the Word of God, and which is something that God looks for in you.

No I do not believe in Universalism! NO I do not believe that All men will "eventually" be saved, scripture does not support such!

Please explain why a man who doesn’t believe dies if ALL of his sin has been atoned for? Revelation 20 14,15

The scripture you quote deals with Sin. While I agree with the wage for sin being death, the Atonement of Jesus for Sin wiped away that wage, we no longer face the death penalty because of Sin! Unbelief is the absence of belief which Jesus says is something you must possess to be Saved!

There is NO LACK OF HARMONY between what Jesus says in John 6 and what he says in John 17. John 17 simply makes it clear who the Father gave "out of the world" to Jesus who is God the Son, and who specifically it is who were "Taught by God", there are no others in scripture of whom "Taught by God" applies except the Apostles. ALL since, have been taught by the teachings of the Apostles.

And by the way, It is your traditional understanding that clouds your thinking!

What is it about this relatively small portion of the discourse in the synagog that you want me to isegete? I am not persuaded by your insistance that this passage justifies the doctrine of election! IT DOES NOT!

"Being drawn" let's look at this. The scene is an upcoming Concert by your favorite performers, but you know nothing about it because you have failed to "hear the word" that contains the details. It is the word that would draw you to attend the concert, but you did not get the message. So you are not drawn by the word, and you miss the concert! But the concert had room for everyone, and all who came were admitted freely but only those who heard the word made preparation and attended. The Father gave us HIS Holy Word by which we are to be drawn to the SON. If you don't open the word you don't get the invitation to attend. The word can be and is given in many different forms, but if you don't act on what you hear....oh well!

 

I apreciate humor did someone help you with this

Yes but those that the Father gives have already been given in;

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Those that were given were the disciples. The disciple were destined to be who they were and they all accepted there destiny except Judas. He resisted it. Yet even that was predetermined and as well accepted it but afterward regretted it and commited suicide I think because he knew he made a big mistake.
Are you trying to say that everyone who is saved is given before he has faith?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Mike,

Yeah, It’s good to know that we can get in a laugh or two.

I agree that we should strive to remain consistent with the broader context of all scripture; however, we also should remember not to neglect the more immediate context. Although there is similar wording in John 17:12 this does not make it within the context of John 6:37. Allow me to explain:

In the immediate context we see, concerning the grouping of those “that the Father gives”, that they also “come to Me.” The context shows a contrast between those who “do not believe” in v36 and those that come. Additionally, the context continues on to state that Jesus came not to do His will but the will of the Father. Then Jesus states, “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” Note that the gender is neutral in “but raise it up on the last day.” The immediate context shows that those the Father gives are a grouping of more than just the disciples. They are male and female of those from God’s elect, which are those who believe as mentioned in v40.

 

Hey Wes,

In response to this, please see my message to Mike [ILUVLIGHT]. I address the differences in context between John 6 and John 17.

You were saying to billwald in the post just before your response to me:

If “Believing” is a command from God and if “Believing being what FAITH is must mean We are commanded by God to have faith” the state of unbelief becomes a state of sinfulness because we are in disobedience to God. My part remains consistent in that not believing is sin and unbelief is a state brought on by sin. In order to convince me of your point, you will have to show me how you came to the conclusion that Christ “atoned” for the sins of “ALL” as in everyone that ever lived.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit brings conviction? It is the inward work of the Holy Spirit that “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me.” The word is preached, the seed is sown, it is given water, but God makes it grow.

I don’t see how you can reconcile this scripture with your claim of:

Man proclaims the Word of God, but it is the Holy Spirit that works within us to bring us to repentance and faith. This is being taught by God.

 

Hi Drew;

While I can apreciate your effort you still haven't shown that this is talking about the special elect that Calvinist claim to be part of. You have gone in to English Gramar to explain a Greek writing that was written nearly 2000 years ago. Yet you seem to think it can be explained by moder gramatical applications of English. It can't be done.
This is how it looks in the original Greek;

[37] Pan ho didôsin moi ho patêr pros heme hêxei,

A total of nine words.
In English;
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
A total of 23 words;

In Greek;
[37] Pan ho didôsin moi ho patêr pros heme hêxei,

Pan = all, Ho = that, didosin = to Give, Moi = Ego,or me, Ho =That, pater + Father Pros = motion from Heme = also ego or me, hexei= to have come.

Where the problem comes in now is that we don't have a dictionary to explain the Greek gramar from the period. We also have to note that "Heme" is a modern Greek word added by translaters for gramatical purposes. I'm not a Greek master all I really know is what I have read about the subject so just how they are able to even define a Greek word from a codex is best left to scholars and we all rely on what they claim. We have to admit that they do have religious convictions of there own that can't help but influence what and how it is translated.
Which is why I'm intrested in the original Greek.

So here you are discussing English gramar which has nothing to do with the Bible.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hey Mike,

I don't understand your point of contrasting the number of words used. I don't find it even relevent to our discussion.

Well, maybe we shouldn't trust any of the Word-by-Word translations that translate this from the neuter. So should we throw out the KJV, NKJV, and NASB Bible translations that seem to have err'd on their translsations from the neuter? Those scholars we depend on must have made it up. What do you think?

Anyway, the neuter doesn't make the case it merely solidifies it. The context still shows that the grouping is refering to all of those who will come to Jesus for salvation.

 

Hi Drew;
What neuter would that be?. If the gospel is about salvation how in the world could it be neutral ?
Your confussion about the gospel stems from your mentors. If you disregard what they have taught you then you might see the forest as trees, instead as something different. The scriptures aren't about one verse. It's about the Salvation our messiah offers, and the only way to understand it is to consider it all. Not one sentence at a time.

All I can say is if I were fluent in original Greek I would no doubt consider just that. The Bible is only accurate in it's original manuscripts. There is far too much lost in translation the same is true with any translation especially something as old as our Bible.
Your trying to apply what was written about and to the disciples to your self in John 6. A chapter by the way that is not a parable. Parables are what was spoken to the masses.

My showing you what the verse looked like in original Greek was to show you that what we realy have for Bibles today are nothing more than the translators best guess. and by the way the Greek I show you was from the same codex used in the translation of the NASV.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

If Calvinists do not accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior because this is considered a ‘work’ in activating salvation, how do you know when you become one of the elect? Or does this happen in diverse ways to each Calvinist?

God wants us to know we are saved. This is proven out in John 1:12; Romans 8:16; and in I John 5:13,18. God does not offer and give a ‘hope so religion’ but ‘a know so faith.’

 

Hi Ray;

Very well said; A MEN
Mike

 

The topic is faith.

I do not think anyone would believe and/or say that the Pharisees were saved people. They tithed even of their condiments as noted in Matthew 23:23. Be reminded that Jesus said the following words. ‘ . . . and ye have omitted the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy and faith.’ Let’s talk about faith in Jesus. He is telling them that they should have faith in Him. And our Lord goes on to say, ‘ . . . and these ought ye to have done .

‘Have done’ are action words, meaning that God would have like to see their response to His being the Son of God, our Savior. I believe the Greek word is {poiasai} which is in the aorist active infinitive tense. It is my understanding that the aorist tense means an action that has a beginning. The combined aorist active tense means that, in this case, faith has a beginning point and will continue on into the future. {until we stand in His Presence} Feel free to check your favorite Greek scholar.

This being said, faith in Jesus Christ requires a human response or there is no real salvation. Faith has a beginning point and will carry us through, as noted in Philippians 1:6.

Jesus was saying to the Pharisees, ‘You ought to have had faith in Me and still could have tithed the ‘mint, anise, and cummin.’ Faith requires an active response to Jesus Christ, thus the {aorist active infinite tense}.

Faith in Jesus requires an act of human consciousness, meaning an act of the will.

Jesus waited for the Pharisees to respond in faith, but it never happened. The remained 'blind guides.'

 

Hey Mike,

Have you been watching Benny Hinn? You're misrepresenting my words again. Go back and read carefully.

 

Hi Drew;
I don't watch television haven't got the time but I think you've been listening to the Pope

I don't believe that is so; Actually I think you're unable to express what you really want to say.
Try again but remember we have to accept the responsibility of our own words so be as informative as possible. I'm not a mind reader.
The word "neuter" just didn't fit the context. After all it has so many possible meanings.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Got it! Sorry, for a minute there I forgot who I was speaking to.

And remember folks, Bob Barker says, "Don't forget to spay or neuter your pet."

 

ILL,

I guess Jesus made a mistake when He was transliterating the greek/aramaic (take your pic) when He pointed out the VERY important tense used by the Hebrew "I am" not "I was" ...from that Tense He could lay the doctrine of God is the God of the living.... I guess He needed your help in knowing that you can't trust man and they didn't have any "lexicons" so He might be wrong! Maybe Jesus isn't the I am maybe He is the "I was"... I think God is faithfull to give us teachers faithfull to the very yod and tiddle and had many translations to easily translate from one language to another with the EXACT understanding of the words... Especially the Septuagent... If we don't trust that you CAN NOT believe that Jesus was born of a VIRGIN... just a young woman!

 

Unless of course you believe the prophesies about the Messiah, then you cannot possibly confuse the issue of Mary's virginity without denying the deity of Jesus, the Son of God!

 

Hey Ray,
Sorry, I didn't intend to skip over this. Calvinist do accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. They just believe that God is the author and perfector of our faith [we are not co-authors]. Calvinists are also confident of their election because they know that they don't have to trust in themselves for their faith that justifies, they trust God for it. The evidence of our faith confirms our election.

 

I believe that the same ratio of Calvinists fall away from faith in God as any other group of believers. No I have no stats to back up that belief, but it is quite logical, and there seems no evidence exists to refute that belief. If that were not true, Calvinist churches would be the fastest growing religious group in the world. But alas, just as many of them are in trouble, threatening to close their doors as another group.

Further, if faith is the evidence that confirms election, then every mormon, muslim, etc. is elected, they all claim faith in a deity they call God.

I am happy to see you confess that faith belongs to the one possessing it, and is not a "gift" from someone else.