faith

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi RC;

I think God is faithfull to give us teachers faithfull to the very yod and tiddle and had many translations to easily translate from one language to another with the EXACT understanding of the words... Especially the Septuagent...

Then you'd be wrong the Septuagint has problems with Jesus's geneology. There are also problems with Jeremiah, Baruch and the Psalms.

Here are some comparasions I got off the net;

"1. The Masoretic Text of Psalm 138:1-2, read as follows:

Psalm 138:1-2 - A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole
heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy
loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word
above all thy name. (KJV)

What we find here is God's "word" is above His "name." Now lets look
at the Septuagint:

Psalm 137 = 138:1-2 - A Psalm for David, of Aggeus and Zacharias. I will
give thee thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; and I will sing psalms to
thee before the angels; for thou hast heard all the words of my mouth.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and give thanks to thy name, on
account of thy mercy and thy truth; for thou hast magnified thy holy
name above every thing.

Now what lines up with the New Covenant Scriptures. I believe its the
Septuagint. Messiah was given a Name above all things. And we
know He is the Living Word, and Living is the key! Could it be that the
change came because of John chapter one. I believe that is one of the
answers."

You're using a corrupt version no wonder you appear to be wavering so badly.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Drew,

You said,

'Sorry, I didn't intend to skip over this. Calvinist do accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. They just believe that God is the author and perfector of our faith [we are not co-authors]. Calvinists are also confident of their election because they know that they don't have to trust in themselves for their faith that justifies, they trust God for it. The evidence of our faith confirms our election.'

Thanks for your answer. It helped me understand.

I am a four point Arminian and my fifth point is Eternal Security. I too, can affirm your statement of faith above in your quote. Salvation is all from the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mixing faith with the hearing of the Gospel unto salvation does not make us co-authors of faith. Faith is our response to the Lord's calling to believe in His Son.

Hebrews 4:2 says that the preaching of the truth to some was of none effect, because their understanding of the Gospel was not 'mixed with faith in them that heard it.'

Grace is offered to sinners as a gift. [Ephesians 2:8] Faith is a sinner's response to God's call to salvation, and must be 'mixed with faith,' [Hebrews 4:2] which is the human response to the Lord.

Yes, Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. We cannot lift ourselves up to Heaven by our own 'bootstraps.'

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[rc]

I'm the one lining up with the LXX not your!... The LXX was before Christ. Anyways ... You're the one that doesn't believe that God couldn't keep His Word correct and has lost it's proper intention because He couldn't control men with pens, not me!

That's the problem with worshipping man over God ILL ... A sovereign God can keep His Word exactly the way He INTENDED it.. down to the very dotting of an i . But when man has power over God ... well... who can trust the Bible.
You keep your liberal apologetics off this thread. You can't even understand the Bible conservatively and now I know why... You're on a slippery slope that will lead you to despair my friend. That liberal gibberish you spewed from that liberal web site is flawed for many reasons. There is VERY little problems with reconcileing ther LXX and the BHS texts... Getting proper Bible software like Bibleworks you can see the differences Bibleworks has a LXX and BHS comparative/linear. There is no loss of meaning or intention or translation problems... the word in the Hebrew is EASILY understood to mean angels... the Heb. scholars properly interpreted that in the greek for aggelos (angels) concise, proper understanding and translation. So take your liberal trash and throw it out the door cause it's not going to fly here.

 

[rc]

"Did God really say" gods ? or angels? .... Hmmm who said that? .... ILL? or ..... could it be .... SATAN!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi RC;

The LXX was before Christ. Anyways ...

Yes and it changed dramatically after the New Testament was written.

You're the one that doesn't believe that God couldn't keep His Word correct and has lost it's proper intention because He couldn't control men with pens, not me!

This statement really shows just how little you know about the word of God. The Masoretic text is the Original, written in Hebrew. The Septuagint was written in Greek. It did not go through the rigors of making it accurate by the scribes of the Jewish text which is why it is corrupt. I thought you studied the Judean faith growing up. If you had you would know that the Old Testament came from the Jews not the Greeks.

That's the problem with worshipping man over God ILL ...

Your the one guilty of this. In fact you hold the words of the Greek in Higher esteem than Hebrew masoretic text. It appears you are Predjudice against the Jews. Preferring the Greeks

A sovereign God can keep His Word exactly the way He INTENDED it..

Yes He did in the Masoretic Text. Of course you believe that anything that says Bible on it is correct.

You keep your liberal apologetics off this thread. You can't even understand the Bible conservatively and now I know why... You're on a slippery slope that will lead you to despair my friend. That liberal gibberish you spewed from that liberal web site is flawed for many reasons. There is VERY little problems with reconcileing ther LXX and the BHS texts...

First let me tell you RC you have no authority to order me to do squat. I'll post here until I'm told by the moderaters or the administeraters to stop. There isn't anything you can do about it. Besides you're the one posting trash
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[rc]

I'm not putting the Greek over the Hebrew. And by the way the LXX was by the 70 greatest JEWISH scholars of the time.... I'm saying that there is harmony between the two. Your the one sowing discord, causing doubt... hmmmm like someone else... I like how the LXX was corrupted by the NT though it was written 300 years before it! ha ! Your fighting a lost cause here my friend... seems like you've done alot of "website" reading and no diciplined learning in school. You get your news from CNN too?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi rc;

I'm not putting the Greek over the Hebrew. And by the way the LXX was by the 70 greatest JEWISH scholars of the time....

A Jewish Scholar is a lot different than a Rabi;
The masoretic Text is much older than the LXX. And it's copying was over seen by the priest. If one dot or tittle was wrong they threw out the whole thing and made the scribe do it over. Even Christ acknowledged this and was proven to be very accurate by scrolls much older than what we have today.
The LXX has never been accurate it has always been corrupt and as far as it being written before Christ well that is what it proponets claim but I wouldn't count on it. Those who sell the NIV made the same type of claims and now they print a gender neutral bible.
I just don't believe you know what you're talking about.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Drew]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They just believe that God is the author and perfector of our faith [we are not co-authors]. Calvinists are also confident of their election because they know that they don't have to trust in themselves for their faith that justifies, they trust God for it. The evidence of our faith confirms our election.

I believe that the same ratio of Calvinists fall away from faith in God as any other group of believers. No I have no stats to back up that belief, but it is quite logical, and there seems no evidence exists to refute that belief. If that were not true, Calvinist churches would be the fastest growing religious group in the world. But alas, just as many of them are in trouble, threatening to close their doors as another group.

Further, if faith is the evidence that confirms election, then every mormon, muslim, etc. is elected, they all claim faith in a deity they call God.

I am happy to see you confess that faith belongs to the one possessing it, and is not a "gift" from someone else. </font>[/QUOTE]________________________________

Hey WES, OutWest

WES, OUTWEST said,

I believe that the same ratio of Calvinists fall away from faith in God as any other group of believers. No I have no stats to back up that belief, but it is quite logical, and there seems no evidence exists to refute that belief. If that were not true, Calvinist churches would be the fastest growing religious group in the world. But alas, just as many of them are in trouble, threatening to close their doors as another group.

You shouldn’t be making statements that you can’t prove. Numbers do not equal true conversions. Seeker friendly churches do anything to bring someone to a “choice” even to the point of neglecting repentance. You prove nothing.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:21-23)

Further, if faith is the evidence that confirms election, then every mormon, muslim, etc. is elected, they all claim faith in a deity they call God.

Now you’re taking my words of context. The faith I was speaking of is Faith in Jesus Christ our Savior. Check the context of my words.

I am happy to see you confess that faith belongs to the one possessing it, and is not a "gift" from someone else.

How is this Wes if “they trust God for it [it being faith]”? I have not been inconsistent here. I have already discussed this concept with you and you have failed to respond concerning my question on John 16:7-11. You have also failed to address your contradiction concerning faith in my last post to you. Concerning the out of context remarks you have made I can only assume that either you do not know what you are talking about or that you have suspicious intentions. You continue to take the parts of scripture that best suit your tradition and leave the rest of scripture out even negating other scripture text. You are teaching half-truths and proclaimed them the whole truth. That is a clear and documented deception.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Now you’re taking my words of context. The faith I was speaking of is Faith in Jesus Christ our Savior. Check the context of my words.

Having studied Mormonism under Mormon Skake leaders, I can assure you they believe that the Jesus of their bible is the same Jesus Christ that you put your faith in! They simply believe different things about him than what we believe! Yes, they have faith IN JESUS CHRIST!

Muslims Likewise have FAITH IN ALLAH (their God and 'savior') If you deny that then you the one out of touch!

 

[Wes Outwest]

How is this Wes if “they trust God for it [it being faith]”?

"if they trust God for it?" Isn't "trusting" FAITH? If one must trust God in order to "receive" faith, what is one actually doing? Isn't faith the substance of things hoped for? So, if you are hoping for faith, aren't you faithing for faith?

I have not been inconsistent here. I have already discussed this concept with you and you have failed to respond concerning my question on John 16:7-11. You have also failed to address your contradiction concerning faith in my last post to you. Concerning the out of context remarks you have made I can only assume that either you do not know what you are talking about or that you have suspicious intentions. You continue to take the parts of scripture that best suit your tradition and leave the rest of scripture out even negating other scripture text. You are teaching half-truths and proclaimed them the whole truth. That is a clear and documented deception.

If I were to expound voluminously to your comments, I'd be writing your thesis for you.

 

[Wes Outwest]

You shouldn’t be making statements that you can’t prove. Numbers do not equal true conversions. Seeker friendly churches do anything to bring someone to a “choice” even to the point of neglecting repentance. You prove nothing.

I'm not sure I was attempting to prove anything with that statement of MY OBSERVATIONS!

If what you say about Calvinism is true then where is the fruit? Why aren't the Calvinists growing exponentially?

 

[rc]

Wes,
8 out of the top 10 missionary ministries are calvinistic... The fruit is growing in masses everywhere around the world, not in this man loving, man worshiping, humnanistic hell hole of usa and europe. And you think that they are "teaching" calvinism? ... Brother it's the gospel, calvinism is just a study for older Christians that are growing spiritually in their quest to know God more... Your equating convertion rates is downright infantile... You can't equate truth with man centered understandings... I know since you are man centered you look at material things like numbers (like the seeker friendly churches..all Arminian). .. I guess Jeremiah's was just horrible!! Not one convert in all those years !!

 

[Wes Outwest]

What you describe is non-denominational evangelism, the outpouring of the spirit upon mankind.

As for "man centered"; In case you haven't figured it out, Man is what salvation is ALL about!

God was self sufficient before he created, and he is self sufficient now and is self sufficient for all eternity.

He don't need us, we need him.

He's not in trouble with us, we are in trouble with him.

We are the redeemable, He is the redeemer!

We are the created, He is the creator.

Calvinism is of man, Evangelism is of God!

 

[Ray Berrian]

rc,

You said to Wes, ‘8 out of the top 10 missionary ministries are calvinistic... The fruit is growing in masses everywhere around the world, not in this man loving, man worshiping, humnanistic hell hole of usa and europe. And you think that they are "teaching" calvinism? ... Brother it's the gospel, calvinism is just a study for older Christians that are growing spiritually in their quest to know God more... Your equating convertion rates is downright infantile... You can't equate truth with man centered understandings... I know since you are man centered you look at material things like numbers (like the seeker friendly churches..all Arminian). .. I guess Jeremiah's was just horrible!! Not one convert in all those years !!

With all due respect you contradict yourself because you said toward the end of your message, ‘I know since you are man centered you look at material things like numbers . . . ’ and then elevate for our attention your numbers which are supposed to impress us that ‘Eight out of the top ten missionary ministries are Calvinistic.’ Caught you in the numbers game!

We need a non-bias evaluation of your first sentence above. Where are those statistics? Also, what makes them the ‘top ten missionary ministries?’ Is it the number of missionaries in each group?

Your idea of a ‘man loving, man worshiping, humanistic ___ hole in the USA and Europe is bogus. It is our nation who supports more ministries and food relief program through ministry plus our government support of those in need around the world.

There is nothing wrong with trying to evaluate what we are doing in ministry. In this way we encourage one another, in the things of the Lord, to do even more for Him. The Lord will judge each of us as to our motives at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Just make sure that you are witnessing to the lost everyday.

As to ‘man worshiping humanistic’ beliefs I do not believe one shred of ‘the man worshiping’ concept. Arminian Christians love the Lord and know He is sovereign over the entire world, just as much or more than Calvinists.

The facts are even stated by your own Calvinistic writers that the Five Points of Calvinism can be traced back to the ‘humanistic views’ of Roman Catholicism back as far as St. Augustine. The good thing is that as to the points of Calvinism, Catholicism has evolved more toward the Arminian view of our day than you obstreperous and fractious Five Point Calvinists. But, we have not given up on you and keep praying that the Holy Spirit will remold your erring ways.

Viewing God and His Gospel though the lenses of Calvinism is not hungry and growing Christians maturing in faith it is simple indoctrination.

You may be right about Jeremiah. We are called to be faithful to the Lord and His Word will not return to Him void, says the Scripture. Did you expect to see a list of those saved under Jeremiah’s ministry?

When I was in the ministry we used to compete among the pastors, which was an incentive to try to bring as many as we could to the Lord before the next Annual Conference. Yes, our denominations push us to advance Church Membership. I do not see this as inherently evil, as long as we do not take the praise for others finding the Lord. Again, the Lord will judge each of us as to motives and our secret actions while living in this lifetime. The secret things will be revealed, says the Word of God.

I agree with you that in America, generally speaking, people put in their one hour at church and then wait one week before they put on the 'spiritual bib' waiting for their pastor to feed them. Much of the excitement for the things of the Lord is missing, and some are happy with what they view as orthodoxy. In many cases it is dead orthodoxy. There is little life in the Spirit for many reasons. Some are looking toward a larger home or car or a summer place in the mountains while those around them are dying and leaving this world without Christ.

I have contacts in Africa and the people are really hungry for the things of the Lord. They want Bibles and good devotional materials. They need to send missionaries to the USA and start revival fires in our communities and to preach to the lost.

While there are many who love the Lord in America I think that the Lord is just letting our sins carry us away and our nation is fast going toward being a second rate nation. We are borrowing money from China, South Korea, Japan in even nations in South America just to keep our nation at war in Iraq. Our 'favored nation' of China will cause them to become stronger economically and militarily, because we allow so many of their imports. The Lord in His sovereignty has His providential ways to bring us to our knees. If Israel could not get away with their backsliding, do you think for a second, that Jesus is not going to judge us for our worldliness?

 

[rc]

Ray, come on.. all those years in "semenary" and you didn't take a chruch history class? The catholic church is Augustinian? HA HA HA HA !

I didn't play "numbers" games as looking at the RESULT. I'm saying the fruit is the ones GOING and DOING... looking at HOW many converts is the stupid thing here...You don't judge things on outcomes because most of them, over 90% never where converted by just confessed...

Arminians believe in a SOVEREIGN God more than Calvinists! ha ha ha.. Your God can't even change the heart of a man... he has to be persuaded... My God creates a new heart in a man and causes him to believe... That's why I can pray for God to change a man's heart to believe and you CAN'T.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Arminians believe in a SOVEREIGN God more than Calvinists! ha ha ha.. Your God can't even change the heart of a man... he has to be persuaded... My God creates a new heart in a man and causes him to believe... That's why I can pray for God to change a man's heart to believe and you CAN'T.

Tell us exactly how your God does that "changing of a man's heart". I'm looking for the mechanics of how it is accomplished...and of course, you must support it with scriptures as you demand of me. Afterall you profess it, you should be able to explain it!

 

[Ray Berrian]

rc,

My brother, you said,

Ray, come on.. all those years in "semenary" and you didn't take a chruch history class? The catholic church is Augustinian? HA HA HA HA !

Here is the history that you need to read. ‘B.B. Warfield declared, “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers.” (Benjamin B. Warfield, CALVIN AND AUGUSTINE, ed. Samuel G. Craig {Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1956} p. 22.

C.H. Spurgeon admitted that ‘perhaps Calvin himself derived it (Calvinism) mainly from the writings of Augustine.’ (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, ed., EXPOSITION OF THE DOCTRINE OF GRACE, Pilgrim Publications, n.d., p. 298.

Alvin L. Baker said, ‘There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustinian’s influence.’ Alvin L. Baker, BERKOUWER’S DOCTRINE OF ELECTION,: Balance or Imbalance? Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1981, p. 25.

If you need more contemporary ‘church history’ as you said I will find more references by hyper-Calvinists in their own words. Simply stated for you, “Calvinism has it early roots in the underbelly of Roman Catholicism.” And before you jump me, let me go on to say, that modern Catholicism, thank God, has moved closer to evangelical Arminianism, while some of you hardliners still think and believe like the sainted Augustine. Seminary or lack of it has nothing to do with anything. Just study before you speak; you will make yourself look better on the board.

I didn't play "numbers" games as looking at the RESULT. I'm saying the fruit is the ones GOING and DOING... looking at HOW many converts is the stupid thing here...You don't judge things on outcomes because most of them, over 90% never where converted by just confessed...

Where did you get 90%. For example, do you think people at a Graham evangelistic crusade would make a fool of themselves by walking down in from of several thousand people if they were not for the most part sincere? Unless you are more perceptive than me, I don’t think you can read all men and women’s hearts. Give the Holy Spirit a little more credit than 10%.

Arminians believe in a SOVEREIGN God more than Calvinists! ha ha ha.. Your God can't even change the heart of a man... he has to be persuaded... My God creates a new heart in a man and causes him to believe... That's why I can pray for God to change a man's heart to believe and you CAN'T.

Your alleged idea is that God selects His elect and then fools them into thinking they have decided to receive Christ. God have the couple in the Garden a choice. The allowed them to name the creatures and to care for the Garden. God did not do everything. Your last sentence in the above paragraph is crazier than the rest. We pray for lost souls and the Lord will attend the heart of the lost with the conviction and convincing power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord will not, however, override the will of the human agent, meaning the sinner. Your prayers are not any more authoritative before the Father than ours.

Go and study my sources and prove your theory totally wrong. Get back to me after you do some more research.

Hiding your head in your Calvinistic sand will not clear your mind as to the truth.

 

[rc]

Wes, easy... ton's of em but one proof text is enough..
ESV Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Ray, all your doing is tracing the roots of Biblical truth and the teachers of the church that approved of it which goes back to John himself... Now, try doing that same research on Arminianism! Where does that trace take you too? Hmmm... I'll give you a 1700 year head start... Pelagius who was he and where did he get his view from? ... This view has always been stamped as heretical by the CHURCH. NOT the Catholic church as you think it but the Pre- pope "UNIVERSAL" true church...

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Wes, easy... ton's of em but one proof text is enough..
ESV Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Ray, all your doing is tracing the roots of Biblical truth and the teachers of the church that approved of it which goes back to John himself... Now, try doing that same research on Arminianism! Where does that trace take you too? Hmmm... I'll give you a 1700 year head start... Pelagius who was he and where did he get his view from? ... This view has always been stamped as heretical by the CHURCH. NOT the Catholic church as you think it but the Pre- pope "UNIVERSAL" true church...

To whom is Ezekiel speaking when he Speaks the word of God as every true Prophet must?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

RC;
I find your understanding of the history of the church rather limited. The universal Chruch didn't even exsist until 325 AD that is a historical fact. The universal Church is the Catholic Church which is what universal means.

Pelagius who was he and where did he get his view from? ...

Augustine, Clement, and Origin. The Alexandrian School of Theology. The same place Calvinism came from. Hmmmm.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike