faith

[johnp.]

Wes.

Well then, if God gives faith to us, and we are in His image, we should be able to give our faith to those who seem to be lacking it.

Been a while since this one came up. The nitty-gritty.
GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

As you see from the scripture, man is made in the image of Adam. I know you don't believe this so I'll see you. Prove it wrong don't just say it is. Find me one man in the scriptures who was referred to as being in the likeness of God and who was not a man of God. I have not been able to find any.

Well then, if God gives faith to us, and we are in His image, we should be able to give our faith to those who seem to be lacking it.

And then who would be Saviour? Being a Saviour is the Saviour's job. Have you ever tried to give your faith away to another? Is it possible to do it? Bet ya can't! No of course we can't.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Have you tried to give your love to another? Bet you can't.

It's the only thing you can do with love man!

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Wes. faith (Page 7)

So, the argument is "against me", and has nothing to do with truth or THE FAITH.

Where have I used scripture but in defence of my doctrine or in attack against your false gospel which is no gospel at all? Notice that I do not use scripture against scripture I use it against you for you! To love my neighbour. What kind of friend would I be if I turned my back on you and agreed to disagree?

In case you haven't noticed, no argument has been won or lost! You continue to deceive yourself.

You: How does he give what He does not have?
Me: What! Has He got flippers? Flippant you say?
You: Are you implying by this 'humor' that faith is a created thing?
No Wes. You asked as if God could not give anything He did not have. I asked you if He had flippers because if He could not give what He did not have how could He give out flippers. I think that is a win for me don't you? A minor win to be sure but they add up. A jest? At least you answer these points where you think you see a crack. A noble sport.

You asked me, "What are you talking about?"
I replied, "I'm beginning to wonder to be frank!
My post posted 20 February, 2005 08:54 in a reply to ScottEmerson's line; "And predestine doesn't mean "forced a choice upon."
My reply to that is;
Predestine means to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand : foreordain especially by divine decree or eternal purpose.
To his next line which was;
"If God knew what our end-decision was from the beginning, he could have, thus, predestined it."
My reply to that is;
He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose.
The question;
What's your beef about predestine man? Damage your ego does it? It's meant to."
In case you haven't noticed, no argument has been won or lost! You continue to deceive yourself.
Enlighten me then Grasshopper And do you retract the statement that I am a Zen on the quiet? If you don't I'm going to keep calling you Grasshopper!

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Been a while since this one came up. The nitty-gritty.
GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

As you see from the scripture, man is made in the image of Adam. I know you don't believe this so I'll see you. Prove it wrong don't just say it is. Find me one man in the scriptures who was referred to as being in the likeness of God and who was not a man of God. I have not been able to find any.

How long in years was it from the time that Adam was created to the time that Moses wrote about it. Moses is credited by most as being the recorder or causing the recording of the folklore regarding origins.

To say that I do not believe what you say is to short circuit the whole thing. But No I do not agree with your interpretation. I do not believe that God altered man from His created man through the Procreated man when it comes to Image. Physical Image perhaps, but God is spirit and as far as man is concerned spirit does not reflect in image! When scriptures say man is made in the image of God, it would be quite a stretch to even imply "Physical image". So that leaves us with Spiritual Image. The only alteration of man's Spiritual image occured when man voluntarily disobeyed God. Disobedience became man's nature. But that occured in man prior to Seth! So why wasn't it said of Cain and Abel? The fact that it wasn't stated for Cain and Abel, blows holes in your theory that the Image of Seth was somehow different than God created in Adam.

When Scripture says that Seth was in the Image of Adam, one must ask the question, who else would Seth be in the image of if not his father? I don't think they had Milkmen or Postmen in those days, so there was no other image for Seth, a procreated man, to be born in. No, I simply cannot accept your interpretation of the scripture.

 

[Wes Outwest]

It's the only thing you can do with love man!

OK! Give me some of yours. You will then have less of it and I will then have more of it. Oh, can't do that? Then how does God do that?
You do say that God gives 'love' don't you?
You do say that God gives 'Grace' don't you?
You do say that God give's 'mercy' don't you?

Do you not understand that we are made in the image of God, and that we have all the equipment necessary for us to have love, to have grace, to have mercy, in the same manner that God has them. He does not need to give them to us, he has already done so through the creation of man the species, and through subsequent procreation of the species.

What is lacking is our knowledge of how to employ that which God created us to have and use, we lack it because our disobedient natures keeps it repressed within us. Once we become submissive to God, he awakens our dormancies and we become more like Him.

That is why the more we learn of God the more like him we become if, of course we submit ourselves to conform to his will. The Holy Spirit brings our dormant capabilities to life and we become "perfected" in Christ.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Design engineers are predestinators! They know what the device they are attempting to design is supposed to do! But, until the design is complete, and the device manufactured and tested, the designer does not KNOW that his design meets what it was designed to meet. But there was predestination involved from the beginning!

Ponder that!

 

[Bro. James]

Is your design engineer omniscient,omnipotent and omnipresent?

The concept of "omni" destroys most arguments made from the abilities of fallen man--who has the utmost difficulty with such a notion.

Also, God does not "attempt" anything--He carries out His Divine Will for His Divine Purpose and Pleasure. Someone said:"He don't make no junk"--obviously we are faulty in most everything we "attempt".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro James;

The concept of "omni" destroys most arguments made from the abilities of fallen man--who has the utmost difficulty with such a notion.

Someone recently asked me this;
Can a perfect God Make an imperfect plan? It isn't God that messes up His plans. It's sin and sin messes them up all the time. It was sin when God brought the flood. It was sin when God changed the language of men. It was sin when God destroyed Sodom.
Every Architect realizes that things happen and that even though they may know this. The easiest way around what ever obstacle appears, is to use what ever it is to His own advantage.

God being all powerfull could have created it to be under his control constantly, He is all powerfull. The thing you over look is the advantage to have His will come about that pleases Him most. What God very obviously created men for was His own pleasure. What could bring God more pleasure? Than just to know that His creation did exactly what He wanted and that is Love Him and worship Him of there own volition. We are commanded to Love God and Love is an act of the will without the freedom to Love Him on our own there is no Love.

Also, God does not "attempt" anything

Then why does He get so angry that He wants to wipe men off the earth? The flood for instance. Because man has free will he chooses to sin most of the time. Something called sin messed up His plan.I can agree that man is born in sin yet he is not born to sin.
Something must be wrong with your idea of what omni means.

He carries out His Divine Will for His Divine Purpose and Pleasure.

Just because God has a devine will doesn't mean His will always comes about. In fact the flood, Sodom, and the Tower of Bable proved that didn't it.

Someone said:"He don't make no junk"--obviously we are faulty in most everything we "attempt".

Oop's I guess he is capable of mistakes so much for your view of Omni Huh!.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Bro. James]

I cannot buy the idea that The Potter is having difficulty figuring out how to get the clay into the intended form. God did not make us robots--He can pull the plug any time He is ready--i.e. The Flood of Noah, Sodom and Gommorrah,etc.

We still have a problem with the fact that we cannot be gods--Lucifer has the same problem.

The New Age Movement is not "new".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Is your design engineer omniscient,omnipotent and omnipresent?

The concept of "omni" destroys most arguments made from the abilities of fallen man--who has the utmost difficulty with such a notion.

Also, God does not "attempt" anything--He carries out His Divine Will for His Divine Purpose and Pleasure. Someone said:"He don't make no junk"--obviously we are faulty in most everything we "attempt".

Selah,

Bro. James

Just pointing out the concept of predestination! Not declaring an engineer to be divine!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

OK! Give me some of yours. You will then have less of it and I will then have more of it. Oh, can't do that?

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...
Yet you boast that the love your god has for you can fail. He will stop loving you if you do not pull at the yoke hard enough! But then love that stops was not love at all was it since love never fails.
You say love can come to an end but this only proves that you do not understand what love is. Love never fails.
Have you not read what He thinks about us, the chosen, read the Song of Songs. Read Zephaniah. The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." (Great ain't it!) 3:17.
LK 15:8 "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, `Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
God rejoicing over a lost bad penny! He is crazy about His Lover. Me.

Then how does God do that?

Magic?

You do say that God gives 'love' don't you?
Yes.
You do say that God gives 'Grace' don't you?
Yes.
You do say that God give's 'mercy' don't you?
Yes.

Do you not understand that we are made in the image of God...

Rebutted in my next post I believe.

...and that we have all the equipment necessary for us to have love, to have grace, to have mercy, in the same manner that God has them.

...in the same manner... I would not waste my time on a god that had the same qualities as me to be honest O mighty one! I used to worship me but I stopped sometime ago because I saw Someone Better. Awesome. A Consuming Fire.

...if, of course we submit ourselves to conform to his will.

That is a very dangerous thing to say Wes! I do admire your courage though in the face of the enemy. I think you deserve a mention in despatches and a medal but I think the rebellion is lost. You would do well to remember that He is a Consuming Fire.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Design engineers are predestinators!

Are they? I'll take your word for it.

But there was predestination involved from the beginning!

Do you mean people had a goal? They wanted a machine that would make x and they sat down and designed a machine to make x. This design was designed with the machine to make x in mind. The machine was predestined to make x and so it was designed to make x. Is that right? It proves my case doesn't it?

They know what the device they are attempting to design is supposed to do! But, until the design is complete, and the device manufactured and tested, the designer does not KNOW that his design meets what it was designed to meet.

Sounds awfully like you are saying God attempted. That He knew what He had in mind but until He put the batteries in He did not know if it would work or not?
Just pondering.

But there was predestination involved from the beginning!

Postdestination
How could predestination be anywhere else but from the beginning? That's the flipping question I keep asking you and to which you go to extremes to ward off. I can smell garlic! Is that a shiny silver cross you have? What problem have you got with the word predestination?
ScottEmerson's line; "And predestine doesn't mean "forced a choice upon."
My reply to that is; (How can you say it does not mean
Predestine means to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand : foreordain especially by divine decree or eternal purpose.
To his next line which was;
"If God knew what our end-decision was from the beginning, he could have, thus, predestined it."
My reply to that is; (How can you say it does not mean
He knew what we would choose because He destined, decreed, determined, appointed, and settle beforehand what we would choose. He foreordained especially by divine decree and eternal purpose.
The question;
What's your beef about predestine man? Damage your ego does it? It's meant to."
What problem have you got with the word predestination?

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

I thought I'd replied to this point but it must have been on another thread.

Do you not understand that we are made in the image of God...

GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

I laid down a challenge to you did I not? I asked you to show me one person in the bible who is not a man of God and is referred to as being in the likeness of God. If you can you will win this argument.
2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Look what happens to a Child of God. He needs to be transformed 'into' the likeness of God. Why? Because he is not already in the likeness of God. We can't be because transformed means to change completely or essentially in composition or structure, metamorphose. This verse destroys your false argument that men are made in the image of God as Adam was and I would like you to respond to this point please.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Enlighten me then Grasshopper And do you retract the statement that I am a Zen on the quiet? If you don't I'm going to keep calling you Grasshopper!

You also fail to recognize sarcasm. My calling you a zen master was pure sarcasm. No one on this bbs considers you to be anything more than your posts indicate you are...just a human, ordinary in every way, just like all the rest of us.

None of us are your student!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro James;

We still have a problem with the fact that we cannot be gods--Lucifer has the same problem.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods

You have forgotten that Lucifer wouldn't be satisfied to simply be God. He wanted to be above God, or worse, God's ruler.
I'm not new age.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Where did I give you the impression I thought you thought I was a Zem Master, I am British though?
I take your reply as a retraction of your sarcam or that you called me a Zen Master then? British I can deal with.
As promised I shall stop calling you Grasshopper!

No one on this bbs considers you to be anything more than your posts indicate you are...

How do you know what everyone thinks of me?

...just a human...

Which is a considerable improvement on what those who know me know me by.

...ordinary in every way, just like all the rest of us.

In fear of being called worse by you I must remind you that 'ordinary' does not apply to the Children of God.

None of us are your student!

Why do you say this? Are you shy of subordination? Have you nothing to learn from the words I use? I am a student of anyone who speaks the truth and I think that is a good thing. PR 9:9 Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.
But you shun it.

None of us are your student!

There you go again, not only against scripture but speaking for the board members again. Your humbleness is overflowing.

johnp.

 

[Dave]

I will say that I for one am a student. Not necessarily of 1 particular board member, nor church member, but of any that the Lord will use to show His truth to me.

This is the attitude that I believe all Christians should take. Not to believe every post that appeals to them, but to test what is said according to scripture and if in agreement, to learn from it. In this respect I could be considered johnp's student, or even your student, Wes, in those statements which agree with scripture.

Where we largly differ, and I suppose will continue is you ascribe the limitations of a man or man's understanding to God. Man can give no more than man has. God has an infinite storehouse to give from. And remember, "My ways are not your ways, neither are my thoughts your thoughts, saith the Lord of Hosts"

Dave

 

[Wes Outwest]

JohnP,

I laid down a challenge to you did I not? I asked you to show me one person in the bible who is not a man of God and is referred to as being in the likeness of God. If you can you will win this argument.

Since this is your challenge, Let's get this straight, I use the term "image of God" while you challenge me with "likeness of God". Therefore, you must establish for me the exact definition of what I am to find, is it 'likeness of God' or 'Image of God', so that I stay within the parameters of your definition of "image" in my search for those in the bible who might fit it. You base your challenge on,

Gen 5:3. When Adam was a hundred and thirty years old he fathered a son, in his likeness, after his image, and he called him Seth.

Seems that 'Image' as used here is descriptive of "human nature"

[John 3:6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The Genesis 5 scripture, according to Jesus, is telling us that what came from Adam's loins was Human, and therefore the product would be in the image of that which procreated it. Can a bovine produce a human in it's image? Can a canine produce a Human in its image? No, of course not, but a human can produce a human in his own image, don't you agree?

Jesus told us that,

[John 4:24] God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth.

So what image does a spirit have that man can see? From personal experience, I can openly declare that I have never seen the "image" of spirit, other than a Hollywood manufactured "best guess". So truly I do not know what one looks like. Seems like you have me chasing that which I cannot see.

Since Jesus told us, "those who worship must worship in spirit and truth". That must mean that the "those" to whom Jesus is referring have a spirit, else they could not worship in spirit... Therefore, I can with validity declare that virtually every human recorded in the Scriptures is made in the image of God the FATHER, and you cannot prove me wrong! That would also mean that every human who ever lived, is living or will live, is made in the image of God! Furthermore, Jesus told us, "It is spirit that is the life, the flesh has nothing to offer."

So to answer your challenge, Every person, good and bad, in scriptures (and out) is made in the "image of God", the Father. That does not mean that all have the "spirit of Christ" in them, but they themselves are vessels made in the image of God.

2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Look what happens to a Child of God. He needs to be transformed 'into' the likeness of God. Why? Because he is not already in the likeness of God. We can't be because transformed means to change completely or essentially in composition or structure, metamorphose. This verse destroys your false argument that men are made in the image of God as Adam was and I would like you to respond to this point please. [Cool]

Where scriptures say that we are made in the Image of God, the meaning is that we are capable of being filled with "the things of God". Where scriptures say that we are being "transformed into His likeness", the meaning is that our image is being improved by changing its contents, getting rid of the nature to disobey by displacing it with the nature to obey typified by Jesus, the Obedient Son of God.

Challenge given - - Challenge Answered!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Dave:
I will say that I for one am a student. Not necessarily of 1 particular board member, nor church member, but of any that the Lord will use to show His truth to me.

This is the attitude that I believe all Christians should take. Not to believe every post that appeals to them, but to test what is said according to scripture and if in agreement, to learn from it. In this respect I could be considered johnp's student, or even your student, Wes, in those statements which agree with scripture.

Where we largly differ, and I suppose will continue is you ascribe the limitations of a man or man's understanding to God. Man can give no more than man has. God has an infinite storehouse to give from. And remember, "My ways are not your ways, neither are my thoughts your thoughts, saith the Lord of Hosts"

Dave

Dave, I would never seek you to be my student, but rather for you to seek out what the scriptures reveal. Now, let me add that in my youth, I did not have sufficient life or spiritual experience upon which to form solid Doctrines and I willingly followed wrong teachings due to a serious lack of understanding. Though by the age of 17 I had read the King James version of the bible from cover to cover twice, I did not have sufficient life experience to be able to understand most of the eternal concepts, except that Salvation is given to man on the basis of man's FAITH in God, ALONE.

I have been a member in nearly every denomination of "Christian church", and have even believed at various times in my life that Calvinism, Arminianism, Mormonism, and Catholicism were the Only true religion while I was an adherent to each of them. Now that I am in my 6th decade of human life, I can see how wrong I was to adhere to any of those 'isms'. Therefore, I strongly advise you to not adhere to any of them, but rather to be a Bereaen seeking to find the truth for yourself in the scriptures. At times in your life, some 'isms' will have a stronger appeal to you than at other times, just remember that ALL religions are MAN MADE! Every religion represents man's interpretation of God and His word. No religion is therefore to be trusted for salvation because not one of them is mentioned in the bible as being necessary to salvation.

FAITH in God on the other hand is of man, based on the knowledge of God the man possesses. FAITH is not an 'ism' but rather the hope the promises of Jesus will be true in your life. The promise of everlasting life by believing in Jesus. The promise of passing from death of the flesh into everlasting life with the Christ, rather than being judged unfaithful and being cast into the lake of fire, the death of spirit.

So Dave, May the God of Creation, the Father of us all, and indeed the Father of Jesus our Savior and Lord, be the center of your religious experience no matter where you attend church, or wherever life takes you. Always seek Him, he is easily found by those who do.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Where we largly differ, and I suppose will continue is you ascribe the limitations of a man or man's understanding to God. Man can give no more than man has. God has an infinite storehouse to give from. And remember, "My ways are not your ways, neither are my thoughts your thoughts, saith the Lord of Hosts"

Just noticed that I did not give a proper reply to this section of your post.

Yes, I agree that I come across as indicating that God has "limitations". That comes from knowing how man has developed a lot of misconceptions about God. So let me challenge you:

I challenge you to give to me as a transference of ownership just 1% of the love that you have, that you say you can give to another. You will retain 99% of your "give able" love, losing possession of only 1%.

I challenge you to give to me as a transference of ownership just 1% of the Grace that you say God has "given you". God told Paul that "his grace is sufficient to you" So if you come up short on grace by 1%, I'm sure that God would look at your 99% and concluded as he did for Paul, that his grace is sufficient to you, too!

I challenge you to give me some of your FAITH, say just 1% of what God has given to you. After all, Jesus told us that if your faith is the size of a mustard seed, you can say to the mountain, "be removed" and it will be. So if mustard seed faith is sufficient, you should be able to spare a mere 1% of what you have so that I will have more of it.

You say but I can't do that. Well of course not, FAITH cometh to you by hearing, Your hearing of the word of God! Faith is not a commodity whose ownership can be transferred from one to another. Each of us must obtain faith from the same source, the word of God! You cannot give your love and your grace away either, they are not transferable like a commodity. They are Part of the Image of God in which we were made. Each of us has some. And we must all use what we have or it is dead. Dead love, Dead grace, Dead Faith! And our behavior will be reflective of our not using that which God implanted in man being made in the image of God! God has no reason to give us any more of what he has already given us. However, God behaves in accordance with what he possesses. He loved the world so much that he Gave his only begotten son...a Token gift of his love for us, so that if we believe in the Gift of God to us, we too receive the Gift of Everlasting life. He gave us his word so that by reading it and believing it we can not only have faith but by continuing to read and believe his word we can grow in our faith, thus increasing it in ourselves. And Yes, we can behave in accordance with our grace towards others as God is behaving in His Grace toward us. He does not transfer any of His Attributes to us, we already have them, He put them into us through our being made in his image. And the more we know of His Only begotten son, and obey the Sons's words, the more "IN HIS LIKENESS" we become.

I hope this helps in your understanding of where I am coming from, and trust that you will learn from the scriptures that what I have just given you is truth!

 

[Dave]

Wes,

God uses people as well as His word and the prompting of the Holy Spirit within us to teach us. I would be remiss if I did not look to what men say and evaluate it according to the Bible and the Spirit. Obviously the Bible and the Spirit take the priority and are the final say. Also noteworthy, The Bible and the Holy Spirit are ALWAYS in agreement, it is man who may err and when this is the case, ignored.

God sheds his grace on us. This is to say He shows grace to mankind globally and specifically. He also gives us the ability to show grace to others. What is grace? Unmerited favor.

God creates in us the ability and the flower of faith. He is the one who makes it grow. Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. What did Paul plant? The word. What did Apollos water? The word by expounding on it. How did God give the increase? By providing the ability and flower of faith which resulted in belief in God and in His son Jesus Christ.

I do not see how God's shedding His grace on us diminishes his storehouse any more that your showing love to your children diminishes your store of love for them. The same goes for faith.