faith

[Ray Berrian]

My view of the Scriptures causes all parts of the Word of God to fit together easily. My positions on the five points that I believe, goes back to the Apostolate.

This points Calvinism back to even what my three Calvinistic sources, themselves say, leads to Augustinianism. Your own writers agree what you are unwilling to concede. You wanted an accurate historical sketch and then when given it, you are recalcitrant to agree with what your own doctors of the church have understood to be the truth. You don't think that the Roman Catholic, Calvin would disagree with what their greatest theologian had taught, do you? No one would think that Calvin changed all of his theology at the point when he was recently converted into what we call Protestantism.

 

[jim62]

Originally posted by RON35951:
Where does Faith come from? If it is a gift from God then is this not Election? If it is from Man then salvation is earned, is this not so?


Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Dave]

I believe part of the error here is in the matter of hearing.

Men who are dead in trespasses and sins have no "ears" to hear the Word of God. It falls on deaf ears. The spritually dead must be quickened to life before he can hear the Word of God. The unregenerate sinner is like the dry bones in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. We are dead in trespasses and sins and as incapable of hearing the Word of God as those dry bones in the valley. As God gave life to those bones at the word of the prophesy that He commanded Ezekiel to speak, so He gives "ears" to us to hear his word. Without God doing that the Word falls on deaf ears and dry bones and has no effect.

The definition of faith that is so often quoted and expounded on seems to be a two-part definition with only one part having been addressed. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

The evidence of things not seen speaks to the source of the faith. God, who we cannot see, gives us the saving faith that we need to believe. It is evidence to us of the God who gave it to us and provided the promises which are the things hoped for. Man certainly has a capacity to have faith in himself and things that he can see and understand, but saving faith has a different quality in that it is outside of ourself and our understanding. As such, it can only come from God.

This is made clear in Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Grace is the mercy of God, faith is "not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Therefore God must show mercy to us and give us the faith with which we believe. As verse 9 states "Not of works lest any man should boast". Salvation is God's work from beginning to end, man cannot contribute, but can only be the beneficiary of it that the glory is 100% God's.

 

[johnp.]

 

[Wes Outwest]

Dave,

The evidence of things not seen speaks to the source of the faith. God, who we cannot see, gives us the saving faith that we need to believe. It is evidence to us of the God who gave it to us and provided the promises which are the things hoped for. Man certainly has a capacity to have faith in himself and things that he can see and understand, but saving faith has a different quality in that it is outside of ourself and our understanding. As such, it can only come from God.

Can you convince us that God has FAITH?

What does God have faith in?

What does God hope for?

What is it God cannot see?

Are you sure that He has Faith?

If HE has no faith, How does he give faith to man? How does he give what He does not have?

 

[Dave]

Wes,

God is the creator of all things. We have nothing that he has not first given to us. The Bible is very clear that nothing exists that did not originate with him. Therefore whether you say that man generates his own faith or God gives him the saving faith, it is necessary that God first gave the ability to have faith. How could he give what he does not have?

These questions you ask are, in my view, totally from mankinds perspective and understanding. What does God need have faith in other than Himself? He is all sufficient unto Himself. He knows all and sees all. Just because He has no need to exercise these properties does not mean that He does not have them.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Thanks Dave, I agree with you that God gave us the ability to have faith, and have been stressing that for years. However, because God has no faith to give, whatever faith man has comes from man and not God!

Man's faith in God comes from the knowledge that man has about God and the things of God. But not all of man's faith is in God, it can be in money, in people, in things, all of which the knowledge of God warns us against because they are temporal things. Faith in God is the only thing of Permanance.

I do not agree that the questions that I asked are from man's perspective and understanding. For me, they came from my asking God whether or not he has faith. His answers came to me from various sources that I did not seek out, and from being able to think things through.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

How does he give what He does not have?
What! Has He got flippers?

Hello Dave it's good to meet you.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.

How does he give what He does not have?
What! Has He got flippers?

Hello Dave it's good to meet you.

johnp.

Are you implying by this 'humor' that faith is a created thing?

 

[johnp.]

Why can't you ever answer my questions Wes?

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

It seems that most of the time, your questions are meant to establish or "reinforce your point", and you are not really looking for an answer, but making a statement!

There!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

It seems that most of the time, your questions are meant to establish or "reinforce your point", and you are not really looking for an answer, but making a statement!

That is what it's about Wes boy. To best each other in argument is it not? It's the argument that stands the heat that is metal. This is not school this is frontline evangelism of the cozy sort. Knocks spots off door knocking. Contending for the faith in the market place in my front room! Can't be bad.
Are you looking for the answer? Do you not proclaim? You do not question your belief but others. Is this not so? I am open to argument. I am being refined. I can learn from everything everybody says. I have learnt so much from you. Next time I hear this stuff you put across I will not have to spend so much time wondering which of us is the madder!HaHa!

It seems that most of the time, your questions are meant to establish or "reinforce your point"...

Yes and also elicit more from you to knock down or agree with. What else is there? You refuse my friendship. We could do this in friendship. Out of reverance to Christ. But you yell. You call us deaf and blind and shout at us to see! It is God that teaches.

...and you are not really looking for an answer, but making a statement!

Like I said, I am being refined, but not looking for answers for me. I look for answers that are inconsistant with my faith so that I can lay them open and expose them for what they are. When I see them I respond to them as a watchman on watch. It's a duty to sound a warning when there is danger around. A false gospel. Is that not so?

EZE 36:24 " `For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

That's the gospel I preach. That's faith.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

It appears that you have much to learn!

 

[johnp.]

It appears that you have much to learn!
Indeed Grasshopper.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
It appears that you have much to learn!
Indeed Grasshopper.

johnp.

"Grasshopper", a term of endearment addressed by a master to a student.

Your humility is overflowing!

 

[johnp.]

It was you that called me British Zen Master! Grasshopper.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Your humility is overflowing!

That is true of me. This is why I win the argument against you. I am humble and proud enough to own it! It is a great gift.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

So, the argument is "against me", and has nothing to do with truth or THE FAITH.

In case you haven't noticed, no argument has been won or lost! You continue to deceive yourself.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
However, because God has no faith to give, whatever faith man has comes from man and not God!

I do not see the limits on God that you seem to. If God is all powerful and has created all things, how can faith exist if he did not create it? If he then did create it (if you agree with the first point), then why can he not give it out of his abundant storehouse. Why must God have need of faith within himself to be capable of giving it to us?

Man's faith in God comes from the knowledge that man has about God and the things of God. But not all of man's faith is in God, it can be in money, in people, in things, all of which the knowledge of God warns us against because they are temporal things. Faith in God is the only thing of Permanance.

We agree that man can have misplaced faith in many temporal things, but to say that man's faith in God comes from man's understanding conflicts with Ephesions 2:8. I would also argue that man cannot have any real knowledge of God except by the divine prodding of the Holy Spirit. Jesus stands at the door and knocks (see Rev. 3:20), we do not go to his door and knock. No one seeks after God (ref. Rom 3:11). God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him (ref. Heb 11:6). How can we understand this apparent contradiction except that God makes the first move (quickening us to life) enabling us to make the second (our seeking him). He then rewards us for doing something that we only do because he provides the way to do it.

[/QB]I do not agree that the questions that I asked are from man's perspective and understanding. For me, they came from my asking God whether or not he has faith. His answers came to me from various sources that I did not seek out, and from being able to think things through. [/QB]

Please forgive me if I offended you with that comment. It was not my intent. If you are seeking truth through prayer then I am glad to take back the implication. I am, however, still not sure how to address your questions. There are things about God which we cannot know in this life and must accept on faith. We are expressly warned not to lean on our own understanding (Prov 3:5) but seek the direction of the Lord. If you are doing that, then that is well. Also, a point is that whether or not God has faith in His own being, He is most certainly faithful and keeps faith with us.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well then, if God gives faith to us, and we are in His image, we should be able to give our faith to those who seem to be lacking it.

Have you ever tried to give your faith away to another? Is it possible to do it? Bet ya can't!

Have you tried to give your love to another? Bet you can't.