faith

[Wes Outwest]

The point is that no matter how hard I try, I cannot give one iota of my love to my children. I can however behave in a manner consistant with my love for them. I can discipline them to correct the error of their thinking, I can embrace them within the protective power of a father's arms, I can give them tokens of my love which are not in themselves love, but merely an object with some merit of value that my children would receive as a gift out of my love for them.

Grace is the same. I can behave towards others with grace, but I cannot give one iota of my grace to anyone.

I believe that since we are in the image of God, that we have those attributes as part of the human make up and it is up to us to learn to properly use them. I do not believe that God continues 'dispensing' his grace or His love as one would dispense candy NOR do I find the concept of God "dispensing" his love and grace in scripture either. But he certainly behaves toward the object of his love, that is His creation, with love and mercy and grace.

I do not believe that God has a storehouse for Love and another for Grace and yet another for mercy, etc. I believe that God uses his attributes (something that is true of the one possessing it) in the same manner that he expects us to use what he has given us in the form of attributes, as man IS created in His image.

I do not believe that man is devoid of anything the scriptures declare that we "Can or should have or be". I believe that everything the scriptures tell us to do, we have the built in ability to do, else the scriptures would not tell us to do them.

Jesus told us to treat others as we desire to be treated. IF we cannot do that without stopping by God's storehouse and picking up a supply of it, then we cannot carry out Jesus' command to do it.

Paul tells us what the fruits (attributes) of the spirit are (list) and that we are to possess that fruit. We do not have to receive the fruit, because we already possess it, but do not own up to it. We possess the fruit of the spirit by taking possession through learning to use the attributes that God built into man. But, because man is disobedient in nature, one must be submissive for the fruit of the spirit to be manifested. Who does man, who was given dominion over all the earth, submit to? God, God the Son, and yes, God the Holy Spirit. It is when we are submissive that the attributes God built into us through creation are seen and become the dominant behavior that we exhibit.

 

[Dave]

Wes,

Is there anything too hard for the Lord?

We can do nothing without him. To argue that He has no faith, that grace does not save, etc. is to ignore clear indicators in scripture.

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6), but God also says "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased". By this we can see that Christ had faith. Christ being one with God, then we can also see that God must have faith as part of His eternal attributes. As far as grace saving, see Ephesians 2:8, it is clearly stated. And what is grace but unmerited favor.

How great He is and how poor we are. We are but dust and ashes, and do well to remember that daily lest we be puffed up with pride.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Dave;
If Faith is the hope for things unseen then How is an all knowing God would have any need for faith? especially when he is able to see and know all there is.
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

He is full faith.

Dt 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

For a DDiv candidate, you certainly are WEAK in your command of the language.

faith, n.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theol. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

faithful, adj.
1. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
2. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
3. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
4. reliable, trusted, or believed.
5. adhering or true to fact, a standard, or an original; accurate: a faithful account; a faithful copy.
6. Obs. full of faith; believing.

 

[Dave]

First of all, you make a mistake to judge the language of the bible simply by secular definitions. Scripture must be used to interpret scripture and true understanding of the word comes from comparing how the same word is used throughout scripture.

That being said, God certainly has faith in his own self. He also keeps faith with his children. He is Faithful to his promises. Absolutely obligates Himself to the carrying out of His promises.

Also, even if God has no occasion to exercise faith, that would not mean he had none. And the idea that faith is generated in man means that man has something to boast of. This is specifically excluded by Ephesians 2:9

Are you going to stand before the judgement throne and say "I had faith in God so I must be forgiven!"? I would rather humbly stand before Him and say "I am but dust and ashes, a sinner from birth, but by your grace, you have provided everything for my salvation. All Praise and Glory to God and to the Lamb!"

 

[Wes Outwest]

That being said, God certainly has faith in his own self. He also keeps faith with his children. He is Faithful to his promises. Absolutely obligates Himself to the carrying out of His promises.

If faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, where did God "hear" the word of God? It is God speaking through his word that causes man to develops faith in God.

Who or what is there that God needs to have faith in? Is there anyone greater than God that God owes allegiance to?

What is FAITH? It is the substance of things hoped for. What does God hope for that he doesn't already have or cannot speak into existence?

Also, even if God has no occasion to exercise faith, that would not mean he had none. And the idea that faith is generated in man means that man has something to boast of. This is specifically excluded by Ephesians 2:9

OK, let's hear you boast about believing in God? Lets hear you boast about believing in Jesus. If that's all you have to boast about, then by all means do so?

Are you going to stand before the judgement throne and say "I had faith in God so I must be forgiven!"? I would rather humbly stand before Him and say "I am but dust and ashes, a sinner from birth, but by your grace, you have provided everything for my salvation. All Praise and Glory to God and to the Lamb!"

Ya know, I don't think I'm going to have to stand before a judgment throne, because Jesus says in John 3:18 that those who believe in Him are NOT JUDGED, it is only those who do not believe in Him that are. So you can write all the "scenarios" you want about faith being something to boast about, but having faith in God is the only assurance man has that eternal life exists.

 

[rc]

Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But(1 )God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved -


God being merciful, and loving US, WHEN WE WERE DEAD.... MADE US ALIVE ... by GRACE you have been saved.

Nothing of man in that equation.

NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD, NNE.

 

[Wes Outwest]

RC,
Why do you leave out faith, a totally human attribute, when the rest of the scripture you quote is, "by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH?

Also please note that it does not say that by grace you have been saved, now have faith! but rather, "you are saved THROUGH FAITH". You must possess Faith in order to be saved!

 

[El_Guero]

Wes,

My faith comes from God ... and I am glad that His Holy Spirit is in charge of that. I would mess it up ...

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi

My faith comes from God ... and I am glad that His Holy Spirit is in charge of that. I would mess it up ...

I disagree that faith comes from God it comes from hearing His word and the Bible says so.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You're not saying that He just gives it to us like a blessing, and you didn't know where it came from are you?
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

[here now]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Wes,

My faith comes from God ... and I am glad that His Holy Spirit is in charge of that. I would mess it up ...

Amen and Amen

Wes,
Man can do nothing of himself.
Man will never choose to have faith in anything of God.
Grace is a free gift of God(Rom.5:16). How is it free if you choose to pay for it with faith.

Sincerely,
Here Now

 

[here now]

ILOVELIGHT says:
I disagree that faith comes from God it comes from hearing His word and the Bible says so.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

HereNow asks:
Who gives you ears to hear? Not everyone who reads the Gospel hears (understands) the Gospel.
Or let me put it this way:

Romans 10:17 So that faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.

How do we get faith? By hearing.
And how do we hear? By the word
of God.

So now let me ask, where does your faith come from? There is but one answer to that: GOD

 

[here now]

ILOVELIGHT Says:
You're not saying that He just gives it to us like a blessing, and you didn't know where it came from are you?

Here Now says:
For those of us that do have it, we know right where it came from. And we are more than happy to acknowledge it. Praise be to God!

 

[here now]

ILUVLIGHT,
I'm sorry for spelling your name wrong in previous posts.

Sincerely,
Here Now

 

[rc]

It's through faith but BY GRACE.

If God doesn't by His grace elect you, you will never be ABLE to have faith. You'll always choose to have faith in other things.

NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD, NO NOT ONE.
you still have to believe in this verse.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Wes,

My faith comes from God ... and I am glad that His Holy Spirit is in charge of that. I would mess it up ...

El_Guero, God has given you every reason to have faith, but he did not give the faith to you. You must, based upon what you have been given, knowledge and or experience, establish faith in the "object of faith" FOR yourself! Faith cannot be given from one to another, nor is it given to you by Divine power. One must determine what What one believes, and that belief establishes one's faith! The more you gain in knowledge and experience, the greater one's faith in the object of faith becomes.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by here now:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by El_Guero:
Wes,

My faith comes from God ... and I am glad that His Holy Spirit is in charge of that. I would mess it up ...

Amen and Amen

Wes,
Man can do nothing of himself.
Man will never choose to have faith in anything of God.
Grace is a free gift of God(Rom.5:16). How is it free if you choose to pay for it with faith.

Sincerely,
Here Now </font>[/QUOTE]I know what the scripture says.

I also know that Grace is not given from one being to another, and that Grace alone has no power to save!

The one with grace retains 100% of the grace one has, it is never transfered from one to another like a commodity such a candy bar. Ownership of Grace remains with the one exhibiting it. God retains 100% of his grace, it is a behavioral attribute of God! He is behaving in accordance with his Grace toward mankind from Adam forward, to the Flood, then again from the end of the flood to the present God has been gracious to man. His penalty of death for sin has a grace period of up to 120 years so that man, in that time, can come to faith by learning of God, believing in God, and establishing FAITH in God. All who do, are Saved while God is behaving in accordance with His grace!

Grace is an attribute of the one possessing it, and ALL humanity, being made in the image of God has grace as an attribute, but not everyone uses it! Grace is powerless to save!

Not one human being has been saved by it, but ALL who are saved are saved by the ONE possessing it!

 

[rc]

I also know that Grace is not given from one being to another, and that Grace alone has no power to save!

Grace is given by God. It is not given to all but to those He chose by His sovereignty.

By those whom by which God gives grace to will be enabled to exercise their faith in Him.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by here now:
ILOVELIGHT says:
I disagree that faith comes from God it comes from hearing His word and the Bible says so.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

HereNow asks:
Who gives you ears to hear? Not everyone who reads the Gospel hears (understands) the Gospel.
Or let me put it this way:

Romans 10:17 So that faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.

How do we get faith? By hearing.
And how do we hear? By the word
of God.

So now let me ask, where does your faith come from? There is but one answer to that: GOD

When God made man, God did not put one ion of faith anywhere in his created man. He left an empty space where man could, based on what man receives through the senses, make his own faith!

God gave us the capability to have faith but did not include faith in anything, in his created man.

God gave us his word, God gave us the ears, the mind and the ability to use them in order to receive his word and arrive at FAITH IN GOD! But ya gotta use the ears, ya gotta hear the word, ya gotta weigh the evidence, and ya gotta arrive at faith via that which God has given you, and FAITH is not among those things given!