Fake Eschatology, continued from previous thread

[Lodic]

No, preterism is a FALSE view of eschatology, based upon fake meanings of certain Scriptures, & opinions based on guesswork.

And there are several dispensations seen plainly in Scripture:
1.) The one from the beginning til Noah's flood
2.)The one post-flood until God gave His laws to Moses
3.) From Moses til the coming of Jesus, I. E. the Old Covenant
4.)From Jesus through now, I. E. the New Covenant
5.)The New World after Jesus returns
6.)The one after the millenium is up & God re-makes the world

Funny, that is exactly what I think of "futurist" views of eschatology. Presuppositions are built into the views of those who follow this view, clouding what should be a clear interpretation.

What you see as several dispensations I see as different eras. We have two dispensations - the old covenant and the new one.

 

[Lodic]

Would see Amil/PreMil/Post mil as all more viable then partial preterist, and full preterist would be heresy!

Not so many years ago, I was in complete agreement with you. Fortunately for all of us, our views on eschatology do not affect our salvation.

 

[robycop3]

iconoclast ... thank you for your detailed reply.

One of the things which highlighted a post-tribulation rapture from a pre-tribulation rapture for me is how part of what you listed is answered.

John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father."

So clearly in this passage Jesus is speaking directly to those men who were soon to become known as Apostles. Did the Apostles do something greater than Jesus did? The only thing I can see is that the Apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit Jesus referenced later to lead the lost to Jesus ... as opposed to Jesus doing this Himself while He walked the planet. The Apostles healed the sick ... cast out demons ... like Jesus did. But what about GREATER?

It's hard for me to imagine a person doing things GREATER than Jesus did, but He said this is what would happen after He departed. So, the only question is ... did those things already happen, too? Or are those things which will be a result of the Holy Spirit's outpouring as you referenced .... but that reference has also yet to happen?

Is what's already happened the best of the Holy Spirit's empowerment? I mean, that's kinda cool healing the sick and casting out demons ... but is there anything else? Or is that yet to come ... in the face of evil we've never seen before? Can we imagine Acts 2:18??? I suggest to you ... no. 1 Cor 2:9 ... "... no mind has conceived of the things of God." So, until we are with Him in Glory ... it's impossible for us to have seen/heard/conceived of these things which are going to take place BY those current disciples of Christ. So ... how can these GREATER works have been done if we haven't seen/read/heard of them to conceive of them?

Dan 11:32 refers to "exploits" those who love God will do ... in the face of antichrist ... When Antiochus was rampaging, did God's people "do exploits" then?

As Jesus' Disciples then became known as Apostles. I believe His Disciples in THAT period of time will become known as Overcomers; from the citation you already gave.

Is it reasonable to understand the reference Jesus made in Matthew 24 about " For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." has passed ...

but the 2000 years following it couldn't be worse? the 1/3 of human existence (2000 of 6000) Or ... has that period referenced in Matt 24:21 YET to happen? I mean, consider some of the evils which have transpired since 70AD. IDK if they're worse ... but I couldn't say that Antiochus Epiphanies was worse that Polpot ... or that Nero was MORE evil than (pick one) ... and most of these are in the last century!

1. Adolf Hitler
2. Joseph Stalin
3. Vlad Tepes
4. Osama Bin Laden
5. Mao Zedong
6. Pol Pot
7. Genghis Khan
8. Heinrich Himmler
9. Kim Jong-il
10. Saddam Hussein

I think the evil to fulfill Jesus' prophesy is YET to be seen. We've been given glimpses. There have been some unspeakable horrors committed ... some of those have been since 70AD ... and they're warm ups for THE antichrist/the beast/the false prophet.

Daniel also speaks about a time where folks travel to and fro with ease. I mentioned Jesus travel in/out of Jerusalem during the week of Passover/His trial/crucifixion ... but I don't think that was Daniel's reference. We are traveling DAILY Dallas/Ft. Worth to Hong Kong. D A I L Y. Perhaps that Daniel reference is to the Starship Enterprise? But that's farther away from your perspective than closer.

Daniel also says in that passage ... knowledge will increase. That's certainly happened more now than in 70AD, yes? Both in breadth and depth of knowledge ... outward to space and inward to microns/viruses. (notice Daniel didn't say WISDOM would increase, nor did he say DISCERNMENT would increase ... only KNOWLEDGE)

I'll review your references again in the perspective that "it's all done" ... but it still leaves me wondering if that's true ... what is THIS we're doing?

Nero was not the beast/antichrist. There are many Scriptural criteria he didn't fulfill, while the TRUE beast will fulfill all to the letter.

Nero was never in Jerusalem, so he couldn't've committed the AOD. (No one has yet.)

He didn't overthrow 3 other rulers to become Caesar, but was APPOINTED by his uncle Claudius Caesar, & confirmed by the Senate.

He did not have a miracle-working false prophet as a deputy.

And he was not cast alive into hell, but DIED, having had his scribe Epaphroditus stab him rather than be captured by Galba's men.

 

[robycop3]

You're the one that holds to goofy, fake, phony as a Ford Corvette FICTION that blatantly makes God and Jesus and the prophets out to be liars. We BELIEVE THE SCRIPTUR$ES, you reject them.

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

If you BELIEVED ALL of them, you'd recognize there's a lot of eschatological events yet to be fulfilled. If yopu say they have been, why can't you tell us the names of the beast & false prophet, describe the mark of the beast, , etc. etc?

 

[Lodic]

If you BELIEVED ALL of them, you'd recognize there's a lot of eschatological events yet to be fulfilled. If yopu say they have been, why can't you tell us the names of the beast & false prophet, describe the mark of the beast, , etc. etc?

Not to speak for @kyredneck, but you do realize we have answered your questions many times. It's okay that you disagree with our views, but you keep acting as if we had never answered your questions. The fact that you disagree doesn't mean we can't or haven't answered these questions.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You're the one that holds to goofy, fake, phony as a Ford Corvette FICTION that blatantly makes God and Jesus and the prophets out to be liars. We BELIEVE THE SCRIPTUR$ES, you reject them.

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

This generation means millennia later.
Soon means millennia later.
Quickly means millennia later.


He’s straightjacketed by his futurism.

 

[Lodic]

This generation means millennia later.
Soon means millennia later.
Quickly means millennia later.
He’s straightjacketed by his futurism.

So much for interpreting Scripture literally

 

[kyredneck]

Eph 2:15 ... IDK he's not been made known yet.
Gen 3:15 ... Eve
Rev 12 ... Israel
Rev 17 ... the false church (prob lead by the RCC)

The point is that they're all 'entities', not individuals.

The 'man' of Ephesians 2:15 has been 'known' since the writing. It's us, the Israel of God, comprised of Jew and Gentile where neither circumcision nor uncircumsion means anything.

'The Woman' of Revelation 12 is the heavenly Jerusalem, the same woman of Genesis 3:15; Psalms 87; Isaiah 54; Galatians 4:26, represented by ALL her children in this temporal realm.

'The other woman' of Revelation, the earthly Jerusalem, is "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified". "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth".

but how does this mean it will never happen again after 70AD?

Certainly history runs in spirals, forever repeating itself:

9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1

...and names, faces, and places, change, BUT, there's been only one violent consummation of the Sinai covenant of condemnation and death.

The Great Sea ... is known as the Mediterranean. I suppose it could be a reference to something else,

Yea, it'd help if you gave the passage. 'Sea'' is often symbolic of 'the Nations' in the scriptures.

... the known world in 70AD had greater evil than than the world in 2021 to ... say ... 2027 can experience?

That's a matter of opinion, imo, Satan has been bound and loosed already and 'the camp of the Saints' is being surrounded by her enemies, now, today.

because the 7th beast had yet to be revealed ... let alone the 8th

The seventh head was the 'Holy Roman Empire' comprised of the Germanic tribes. Rome was first ruled by the Caesars and then by the Germanic tribes. These are also the ten horns of the seventh head of Revelation and the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel.

These ten kings of the seventh head were to make war with the Lamb [the Church]. We, as Baptists, are acutely aware of the persecutions the Church suffered at the hands of the Holy Roman Empire (RCC). The ten kings of the seventh head were also to hate the Harlot [the dispersed Jews], eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Herein lies the realization of the punishments and curses outlined in Lev 26 & Dt 28 (etc.) on the Jews for not hearkening unto the voice of Jehovah, i.e., the persecutions, pogroms, expulsions, etc, that the Jews have experienced down through the last two millennia.

The eighth, "the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven", the dragon, that old serpent, was the controlling force behind all the heads.

 

[robycop3]

Funny, that is exactly what I think of "futurist" views of eschatology. Presuppositions are built into the views of those who follow this view, clouding what should be a clear interpretation.

What you see as several dispensations I see as different eras. We have two dispensations - the old covenant and the new one.

....Except you can't show any **PROOF** those events have already occurred.

And in each of those eras, God has dealt, or will deal differently with each one. That's why they're dispensations.

Not to speak for @kyredneck, but you do realize we have answered your questions many times. It's okay that you disagree with our views, but you keep acting as if we had never answered your questions. The fact that you disagree doesn't mean we can't or haven't answered these questions.

Well, actually, & with all due respect, you TRIED to answer. I absolutely reject reducing many Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status, which is the ONLY was preterists can try to make their myth fit Scripture.

Yes, y'all answered, but INCORRECTLY.

The literality is proven by one simple, unassailable fact: the earth is still going right on as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. Same ole planet, same ole surface.

Right now, Jesus is sitting at His Father's right hand.What all they're doing now is not known, except they're watching everything occurring on earth. And whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name, He is spiritually among them.

As prophecy is fulfilled in ouir time, it seems to be going slowly. For example, modern Israel was founded a month after I was born. Now, I'm age 73, with bad knees & lumbar spine, & a few other medicla probs. I don't look a day over 80! Meanwhile, Israel has very slowly become wealthy and has become the "pound-for-pound" military champ of all time.

One event that'll occur quickly will be the building of a new temple in Jerusalem. And I believe the beast will rise to power fairly quickly. I don't know which will come first, but when one or the other happens, "look up, for your redemption draws near."

 

[Lodic]

....Except you can't show any **PROOF** those events have already occurred.

And in each of those eras, God has dealt, or will deal differently with each one. That's why they're dispensations.

Well, actually, & with all due respect, you TRIED to answer. I absolutely reject reducing many Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status, which is the ONLY was preterists can try to make their myth fit Scripture.

Yes, y'all answered, but INCORRECTLY.

The literality is proven by one simple, unassailable fact: the earth is still going right on as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. Same ole planet, same ole surface.

Right now, Jesus is sitting at His Father's right hand.What all they're doing now is not known, except they're watching everything occurring on earth. And whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name, He is spiritually among them.

As prophecy is fulfilled in our time, it seems to be going slowly. For example, modern Israel was founded a month after I was born. Now, I'm age 73, with bad knees & lumbar spine, & a few other medicla probs. I don't look a day over 80! Meanwhile, Israel has very slowly become wealthy and has become the "pound-for-pound" military champ of all time.

One event that'll occur quickly will be the building of a new temple in Jerusalem. And I believe the beast will rise to power fairly quickly. I don't know which will come first, but when one or the other happens, "look up, for your redemption draws near."

I can appreciate the humor with being 73 and not looking a day over 80, and will borrow that at some point.

On to serious topics, though. Whether you think our answers are correct or not, you keep saying that we can't answer. The point is that we have answered. To interpret a symbolic passage as being literal is just as wrong as trying to interpret a literal passage as symbolic. This is not a matter of reducing any passage, but of "rightly dividing the word".

Yes, Jesus is spiritually present whenever two or more are gathered in His name. I think that even applies over a forum such as this one. That doesn't mean that He didn't "come" in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

I don't believe a 3rd temple will ever be built in Jerusalem. Neither do I believe the Beast will rise to power, as that happened long ago. Having said that, I am watching for the return of the Lord, even as you are.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not so many years ago, I was in complete agreement with you. Fortunately for all of us, our views on eschatology do not affect our salvation.

Amen! Still think full blown preterism is heresy though!

 

[Yeshua1]

I can appreciate the humor with being 73 and not looking a day over 80, and will borrow that at some point.

On to serious topics, though. Whether you think our answers are correct or not, you keep saying that we can't answer. The point is that we have answered. To interpret a symbolic passage as being literal is just as wrong as trying to interpret a literal passage as symbolic. This is not a matter of reducing any passage, but of "rightly dividing the word".

Yes, Jesus is spiritually present whenever two or more are gathered in His name. I think that even applies over a forum such as this one. That doesn't mean that He didn't "come" in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

I don't believe a 3rd temple will ever be built in Jerusalem. Neither do I believe the Beast will rise to power, as that happened long ago. Having said that, I am watching for the return of the Lord, even as you are.

When Jesus has the actual Second Coming, history as we now know it ends, and that did not happen AD 70!

 

[robycop3]

I can appreciate the humor with being 73 and not looking a day over 80, and will borrow that at some point.

On to serious topics, though. Whether you think our answers are correct or not, you keep saying that we can't answer. The point is that we have answered. To interpret a symbolic passage as being literal is just as wrong as trying to interpret a literal passage as symbolic. This is not a matter of reducing any passage, but of "rightly dividing the word".

Yes, Jesus is spiritually present whenever two or more are gathered in His name. I think that even applies over a forum such as this one. That doesn't mean that He didn't "come" in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

He simply wasn't then seen.

I don't believe a 3rd temple will ever be built in Jerusalem.

Then, how can the AOD occur?

Neither do I believe the Beast will rise to power, as that happened long ago. Having said that, I am watching for the return of the Lord, even as you are.

The beast will be both a man & the empire he rules.
The only time a statue was set up in the old temple was when Antiochus set up one of Zeus, & nobody made it speak.

The marka the beast will likely be some sorta microchip. The tech already exists, including medical implant procedures. But before that happens, the chip will be improved so that only the person to whom it'll be assigned can use it, to prevent murders for the purpose of stealing the vic's chip. (Won't prevent kidnappings for such purposes.)

For these events to occur as prophesied, a new temple is required. There's not a quark of history proving these events have already happened.

Far as preterism is concerned:
IT'S ONLY MAKE-BELIEVE (1958)-Conway Twitty

 

[Lodic]

He simply wasn't then seen.

While Jesus wasn't seen, His judgment was clearly seen in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Then, how can the AOD occur?

Without a future 3rd temple, the AOD happened when the Roman army desecrated the Herodian temple.

For these events to occur as prophesied, a new temple is required.

A new temple would be required for your version of prophecy to be fulfilled. History shows these events came to pass long ago. Regarding the microchip technology, I agree that this is a cause for concern because we can't trust the government. For that reason alone, my family would not agree to such implants. If they were implanted without our knowledge or consent, I don't see how anyone could be held accountable for something beyond our control. But I digress. Time will show which view of eschatology is truly Make Believe.

 

[robycop3]

While Jesus wasn't seen, His judgment was clearly seen in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

It was the culmination of the fulfilling of the 'days of vengeance'.

Without a future 3rd temple, the AOD happened when the Roman army desecrated the Herodian temple.

No, it didn't. There was no 'beast' yet, no miracle-working false prophet, no statue set up in that temple, which the FP supernaturally made speak, & no marka the beast.

A new temple would be required for your version of prophecy to be fulfilled. History shows these events came to pass long ago.

No, they weren't. With all due respect, you can't show us any such history.

Regarding the microchip technology, I agree that this is a cause for concern because we can't trust the government. For that reason alone, my family would not agree to such implants. If they were implanted without our knowledge or consent, I don't see how anyone could be held accountable for something beyond our control. But I digress. Time will show which view of eschatology is truly Make Believe.

After the Christians are raptured, opposition to the mark will be nil. The beast will hawk it as being "theft-proof, & loss-proof".

Sorry, but you're just repeating the guesswork of Preston, Stevens, Noe, Bray, etc. who invented that trash & suckered you in. IMO, those gents are all quax.

 

[rockytopva]

It was the culmination of the fulfilling of the 'days of vengeance'.




No, it didn't. There was no 'beast' yet, no miracle-working false prophet, no statue set up in that temple, which the FP supernaturally made speak, & no marka the beast.



No, they weren't. With all due respect, you can't show us any such history.



After the Christians are raptured, opposition to the mark will be nil. The beast will hawk it as being "theft-proof, & loss-proof".

Sorry, but you're just repeating the guesswork of Preston, Stevens, Noe, Bray, etc. who invented that trash & suckered you in. IMO, those gents are all quax.

Glad to hear the word rapture! In which the Lord Jesus invites us to...

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

 

[Lodic]

It was the culmination of the fulfilling of the 'days of vengeance'.

Exactly! That is the same thing.

No, they weren't. With all due respect, you can't show us any such history.

With all due respect, Josephus and others have provided the evidence.

After the Christians are raptured, opposition to the mark will be nil. The beast will hawk it as being "theft-proof, & loss-proof".
Sorry, but you're just repeating the guesswork of Preston, Stevens, Noe, Bray, etc. who invented that trash & suckered you in. IMO, those gents are all quax.

There will not be a rapture. I have learned much from Gentry, DeMar, and other Preterists, but I've also followed the Bereans' example and studied whether those things that these men teach are so. Also following the Bereans' example in my studies, I've come to realize that the futurists interpretations of eschatology are seriously flawed.

 

[37818]

. . . Josephus . . . provided . . . evidence.

Please, one reference.

 

[Lodic]

Please, one reference.

Here is a link with his history of the first Jewish revolt against Rome - The Chronology of the First Jewish Revolt According to Josephus. Section 7 (at the bottom) is very specific about the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen! Still think full blown preterism is heresy though!

No one is speaking about full preterism except Astericktom,but he speaks and answers on his own threads. Why did you bring that into this discussion?