Family Planning

[TCassidy]

I don't disagree with you at all. It just seems that in general, most Christians only actively attempt to involve God when the Doctors can't help.

Well, I don't know what most Christians are thinking when they get sick so I will defer to your greater knowledge of their hearts and minds.

 

[HankD]

Isn't that the way most Christians deal with all medical issues? Let the doctor fix what he can and only trust God for what the doctor can't fix.

Not everyone reynolds, maybe not even most.
Not my experience e.g. heart failure : I huffed and puffed for a couple of years, my wife upset because I wouldn't go to the doctor or wouldn't do what they said when I did go. That was after prayer and seeking the LORD for the two years.

June 2016 I was taken via ambulance to the hospital with heart failure (I'm 75) I was out of it and my wife had to sign the papers to have a pace-maker installed (tic-toc, tic-toc - I tell my grandkids I have a clock in my chest ) .

Had a stroke also - neuropathy, etc.

So ya, I'm alive because of man's medicine but i thank the LORD I am here to see more grandkids come into the world - saw one new one already, attended the first wedding of the 22 grandchildren! maybe I'll see the first great grand child also - Deo volente.

That's my story - personally I'm thankful for man's medicine and consider it a gift from/allowed by God but I don't like (Hate) going to the doctor, although I do get to witness to the other patients in the waiting areas.

Prayer first then the doctor. But I've looked death in the face and I tell him I have a Savior.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

HankD

 

[Steven Yeadon]

1.) if they find out one or both of them have a gene which is almost certain to cause any child they may have to be bown with a serious disorder.

2.) Clearly can't financially afford it.

3.) Don't have enough "attention" to go around.

1) As someone who is disabled from birth, that comes off as terrible as it gives people a right not to have well, me. I know you don't mean poorly, but it smacks of eugenics to me.

2) This one gets me, as I do not yet have kids, I will hold off except to say that American society seems to have things to help with huge families. Well except vacations of course. Multiple kids to a room, buy a church van to shuttle everyone around, go to a supersized store like Costco and buy in bulk all the time, etc. I know people with very modest means do manage to raise a ton of kids.

3) Here I view a mother's portion to be with her children, giving her the time to give attention and pursue a part time career. However, if the mother is the breadwinner, possibly because her husband is disabled, I would say that the father can stay home to raise his children.

 

[JonC]

There is no right or wrong answer here, except in judging what other believers should and should not do in absence of a true biblical mandate. We know we are not commanded to have children because, as mentioned earlier, Jesus had none. Paul was also single. Those times Sarah was barren were not truly times God was withholding His blessing from Abraham and Sarah. It was instead a time God was working out His will in their lives.

I understand why people who have struggled to feed five children would choose not to have more. I can understand why someone who cannot have children biologically would resent that choice. The fact remains, however, that this is more a resentment than a valid rejection as there are children to adopt (arguing that the couple in poverty should have more children they cannot support because another couple are unable to have children does not change the biological difficulties of one couple nor lessen the burden on the other).

That said, it is wrong to condemn people for not having children, whether by choice or ability

 

[Sapper Woody]

1) As someone who is disabled from birth, that comes off as terrible as it gives people a right not to have well, me. I know you don't mean poorly, but it smacks of eugenics to me.

Someone close to me has had two children. The first was a girl, and healthy. The second one only lived about 9 months. It turns out that both the mother and father are carriers of a very rare genetic disease (disease may not be the correct word here; syndrome might be better). The child drained their bank account due to having to fly out of state for doctor's visits. Their entire life savings was gone. Fortunately, their community rallied around them and helped them out.

In this case, are you seriously saying that since they know that there's a 50% chance that another child would also have to have the same care, which they couldn't afford the first time, they should still try to have another child?

Keeping also in mind that they had to have thousands of dollars raised by their community to even afford to visit the doctor. And the emotional trauma of having a child die, and knowing that if their next child had the same issues (50% chance of it) that the odds would be heavily in favor of the child dying within a year. Do you still think they'd be sinning by taking steps to prevent another baby?

2) This one gets me, as I do not yet have kids, I will hold off except to say that American society seems to have things to help with huge families. Well except vacations of course. Multiple kids to a room, buy a church van to shuttle everyone around, go to a supersized store like Costco and buy in bulk all the time, etc. I know people with very modest means do manage to raise a ton of kids.

Using myself as an example again, I have had many issues lately which I won't go into here. Suffice to say that I am on disability fixed income due to issues I developed while in the military. I can barely afford to feed my family as it is, and we don't do anything extra. No eating at restaurants, going to the movies, etc. We take advantage of coupons and food banks at churches. We also make sure to be a part of reward programs so that we get discounts on gas. The only thing we splurge on is once a week we get buy-one-get-one pizza at a nearby gas station. My daughters look forward to it every week and so I make sure to have a way to make it happen.

Point is, if I were to have another child right now, I would be blatantly becoming a drain on society, and disregarding God's commands that we take care of our families. I would be relying on the government to take care of my family for me.

3) Here I view a mother's portion to be with her children, giving her the time to give attention and pursue a part time career. However, if the mother is the breadwinner, possibly because her husband is disabled, I would say that the father can stay home to raise his children.

I'm not going to go into too much detail here. I know you didn't mean any of this in a bad way, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there. But my wife is a very busy woman. She has to care for our three children as well as me. She has an in home business that helps with some money, and she home-schools our girls.

So, as you can see, another child just wouldn't work out for us.

With all this in mind, hopefully you can see how some of your reasoning could be upsetting to some. I don't think that was your intent. But in essence, telling people that it is a command to have as many children as possible is essentially the same as telling an infertile person that they are lesser because they can't have children. It's the same type of slap in the face.

 

[Reformed]

In another thread - Steve stated he is opposed to Family Planning.

Now, Gen 9:7 states: And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

So is it wrong for a couple to practice family planning ?

Some will say that, we have accomplished that mission,
and now, we should practice family planning so we do not
overpopulate the earth

Open for discussion

I am late to this discussion, but I have some relevant points to share.

First, the overpopulate the earth argument is ridiculous. Mankind will never be able to overpopulate the earth if it tried.

Second, if a married couple is not providentially hindered from having children, they should have them. The more the merrier. While I am not a Presbyterian, I do believe that God works the divine gift of regeneration through families, although not exclusively. When believing parents raise children under the nurture and admonition of the Lord, there is a higher likelihood that their children will come to faith in Christ. The birth rate is at a near historic low in Western nations. Although I do not have empirical data to cite, I believe the current low birth rate is the result of the prevalent narcissistic society.

I will admit that my opinion that family planning is wrong is based on personal experience. After the birth of our daughter 15 months after we were married, my wife and I were not in a hurry for a second child. We practiced family planning much to our everlasting shame. Five years later, when we thought the time was right, we tried for another child. After a lengthy period of no success, we visited a reproductive specialist only to find out that we were physically incapable of having another child. My dear wife and I battled shame, sorrow, and disappointment for a long time. Had we not waited five years, we probably would have had more children. My counsel is to have as many children as possible as long as you are able to have them. Do not be deceived by the lie that says you cannot afford them. I am one that believes the kingdom of God is here and not yet. We do not build the kingdom just through evangelism, but also through raising children that will come to believe.

 

[TCassidy]

I am one that believes the kingdom of God is here and not yet.

That explains a lot.

Have you read Alva McClain's "The Greatness of the Kingdom?" He pretty much demolishes the "here but not yet" theory.

We do not build the kingdom just through evangelism, but also through raising children that will come to believe.

We don't build the Kingdom at all. Christ will establish His Mediatorial Kingdom at the time of His appearing.

In fact His instruction for us now was two fold: First He said to pray "Thy Kingdom Come." Why pray for His Kingdom to come if it is already here?

And He also said "Upon this rock (the rock of Peter's confession of Christ as Lord and Savior) I will build My" . . .uh, . . . well, . . . uh, My Kingdom? Nope. "I will build my church."

Okay, back to topic. What the Lord has led you to do is not necessarily what the Lord has led others to do. That is why our Baptist Distinctive includes the word Individual Soul Liberty.

 

[Reynolds]

I am late to this discussion, but I have some relevant points to share.

First, the overpopulate the earth argument is ridiculous. Mankind will never be able to overpopulate the earth if it tried.

Second, if a married couple is not providentially hindered from having children, they should have them. The more the merrier. While I am not a Presbyterian, I do believe that God works the divine gift of regeneration through families, although not exclusively. When believing parents raise children under the nurture and admonition of the Lord, there is a higher likelihood that their children will come to faith in Christ. The birth rate is at a near historic low in Western nations. Although I do not have empirical data to cite, I believe the current low birth rate is the result of the prevalent narcissistic society.

I will admit that my opinion that family planning is wrong is based on personal experience. After the birth of our daughter 15 months after we were married, my wife and I were not in a hurry for a second child. We practiced family planning much to our everlasting shame. Five years later, when we thought the time was right, we tried for another child. After a lengthy period of no success, we visited a reproductive specialist only to find out that we were physically incapable of having another child. My dear wife and I battled shame, sorrow, and disappointment for a long time. Had we not waited five years, we probably would have had more children. My counsel is to have as many children as possible as long as you are able to have them. Do not be deceived by the lie that says you cannot afford them. I am one that believes the kingdom of God is here and not yet. We do not build the kingdom just through evangelism, but also through raising children that will come to believe.

Tell China and India you can't overpopulate the Earth.

 

[Reformed]

That explains a lot.

Have you read Alva McClain's "The Greatness of the Kingdom?" He pretty much demolishes the "here but not yet" theory.

We don't build the Kingdom at all. Christ will establish His Mediatorial Kingdom at the time of His appearing.

In fact His instruction for us now was two fold: First He said to pray "Thy Kingdom Come." Why pray for His Kingdom to come if it is already here?

And He also said "Upon this rock (the rock of Peter's confession of Christ as Lord and Savior) I will build My" . . .uh, . . . well, . . . uh, My Kingdom? Nope. "I will build my church."

Okay, back to topic. What the Lord has led you to do is not necessarily what the Lord has led others to do. That is why our Baptist Distinctive includes the word Individual Soul Liberty.

When I use the word "we", I am not excluding God. God builds His kingdom using flawed human instruments. In the post of mine, you responded to, I was using "we" to explain the responsibility God has given to us.

With respect, I disagree with McClain's work on the kingdom. To start, McClain was a Dispensationalist, whereas I am Covenantal. That is going to cause inherent eschatological differences. "Demolishes" is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.

I am not here to condemn anyone. The Lord's words keeping ringing in my ears in Gen. 1:28. Also, I see an oblique reference to children in 1 Timothy 5:14. And lest some people misunderstand me (not you, TCassidy), I understand there are providential reasons for not having children.

Blessings to you on this Lord's day.

 

[Reformed]

Tell China and India you can't overpopulate the Earth.

Have you ever been to India? Most of the nation is rural. China? Similar. I think China's problem is its warped political system. India is not much better. Indians are afraid that the cow no one can touch is old Uncle Fred. I would have no problem putting old Uncle Fred on the grill. Medium rare.

 

[JonC]

It’s just a sensitive issue with people, depending on their situation in life. I know many have been unable to have biological children even after spending much of their savings on fertility treatments. Some of these rightly believe God is in control, but wrongly see birth control as a measure to rebel against God’s will. What is not often addressed is that if it is wrong to use medical means to prevent pregnancy (for the reason it is the domain of God) then it is wrong for the same reasons to use science to become pregnant. Both birth control and fertility treatments are measures of family planning.

My wife and I had been married for 14 years before God blessed us with a son. Looking back, our child came at the perfect time in our life. Sometimes God’s time is not our time and sometimes His plan is not our plan.

 

[Rob_BW]

The birth rate is at a near historic low in Western nations. Although I do not have empirical data to cite, I believe the current low birth rate is the result of the prevalent narcissistic society.

I used to loathe hearing people make comparisons about the USA/West and Ancient Rome. But birth rates are definitely one such parallel.

 

[TCassidy]

To start, McClain was a Dispensationalist, whereas I am Covenantal.

I know. That's why I posted what I posted. To poke a little fun at you.

"Demolishes" is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.

Yep.

 

[Reformed]

I used to loathe hearing people make comparisons about the USA/West and Ancient Rome. But birth rates are definitely one such parallel.

Muslims breed like rabbits. Christians these days, not so much.

 

[JonC]

I used to loathe hearing people make comparisons about the USA/West and Ancient Rome. But birth rates are definitely one such parallel.

I wonder how the data compares when infant and childhood mortality rates are factored in.

 

[Bro. James]

Our endocrine systems have been out of control for many years. Apostle Paul said it is better to marry than to burn (with desire). Adultery and fornication are called sin in many bibles. Apparently many folk enjoy practicing procreation without a license. Large portions of the world population are promiscuous. AIDS is spread by promiscuity--along with most other social diseases. Homosexuality is in there too. Abortion is the trump card for the consequences of promiscuity.

Most of our morality code or lack there of is part of our narcissistic world--we love ourselves more than anything else.
We also have a religion which is conformed to our lifestyle instead of a lifestyle conformed to true religion.

Plans made with a narcissistic paradigm never work. Glorying in the flesh never glorifies God.

How many arrows in the quiver? "Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things(necessities of life) will be added unto you."

Children are a blessing regardless of the circumstances of conception. A lot of us were unplanned events. Now what?

Not sure how meddling with the vas deferens and fallopian tubes figures into scriptural family planning.

Put it all on the altar and do not worry about it. God is in control--whether we believe it or not.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Reformed]

I know. That's why I posted what I posted. To poke a little fun at you.

Yep.

I got the fun part. It is cool.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Someone close to me has had two children. The first was a girl, and healthy. The second one only lived about 9 months. It turns out that both the mother and father are carriers of a very rare genetic disease (disease may not be the correct word here; syndrome might be better). The child drained their bank account due to having to fly out of state for doctor's visits. Their entire life savings was gone. Fortunately, their community rallied around them and helped them out.

In this case, are you seriously saying that since they know that there's a 50% chance that another child would also have to have the same care, which they couldn't afford the first time, they should still try to have another child?

Keeping also in mind that they had to have thousands of dollars raised by their community to even afford to visit the doctor. And the emotional trauma of having a child die, and knowing that if their next child had the same issues (50% chance of it) that the odds would be heavily in favor of the child dying within a year. Do you still think they'd be sinning by taking steps to prevent another baby?

Using myself as an example again, I have had many issues lately which I won't go into here. Suffice to say that I am on disability fixed income due to issues I developed while in the military. I can barely afford to feed my family as it is, and we don't do anything extra. No eating at restaurants, going to the movies, etc. We take advantage of coupons and food banks at churches. We also make sure to be a part of reward programs so that we get discounts on gas. The only thing we splurge on is once a week we get buy-one-get-one pizza at a nearby gas station. My daughters look forward to it every week and so I make sure to have a way to make it happen.

Point is, if I were to have another child right now, I would be blatantly becoming a drain on society, and disregarding God's commands that we take care of our families. I would be relying on the government to take care of my family for me.

I'm not going to go into too much detail here. I know you didn't mean any of this in a bad way, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there. But my wife is a very busy woman. She has to care for our three children as well as me. She has an in home business that helps with some money, and she home-schools our girls.

So, as you can see, another child just wouldn't work out for us.

With all this in mind, hopefully you can see how some of your reasoning could be upsetting to some. I don't think that was your intent. But in essence, telling people that it is a command to have as many children as possible is essentially the same as telling an infertile person that they are lesser because they can't have children. It's the same type of slap in the face.

I believe arguing would only rile angry emotions and that is why I haven't responded.

I understand the sense of what you say, but for me I would try to simply do whatever my conscience felt the Word told me to do. I myself am also on disability and I worry about providing for a family. Thank God I am being retrained for a desk job! That said, I will just have to go with my conscience and what I think the Word says. This means I still want to pursue a large family even with the real possibility that if my retraining is not possible in the end, I would have a wife bearing many children as the sole breadwinner. At least I am more than capable of raising and homeschooling a bunch of children after years of arduous rehab.

As for couples who cannot have children, I believe blessed wife made the point that they already do see themselves as lesser and because of this they spend tens of thousands of dollars on fertility treatments. To have children is an enormous blessing, to be denied is an equally enormous loss.

 

[robycop3]

Reminds me of the "preacher" during herricane Harvey. The flood waters covered his street, and the local police came by with a Bigfoot truck to take him out. He told'em, "Thanx anyway; I'm depending upon God to protect me."

The waters rose into his home & he climbed upon the roof. A Fire Dept. boat came by to take him to safety, but he told them, No thanx; I'm depending upon God to keep me safe.

The flood continued to rise til the preacher had just a small patch of roof to stand on above water. A Coast Guard helicopter came by to pick him up, but he told them "No thanx; I'm depending upon God to keep me safe".

The flood rose more, & the preacher soon perished in it. Upon meeting God, he said, "Father, what happened? I depended upon You to save me from the flood, but I died anyway. What went wrong?"

God replied, "Son, I sent you a cop, a boat, then a chopper to save you but you declined them all! 'Tis your own fault your earthly lide ended!"

Same with family planning or illness.God makes it plain to a couple whether to have a child, or more children, or not. God has allowed man to advance greatly in medical discoveries. Shame on us if we don't use what GOD has provided for us to use!

And i believe it's OUTRIGHT CRIMINAL for parents wo withhold legitimate medical care from their ill child, saying they're depending upon God fo heal. They obviously don't believe God has provided medical personnel and meds for that purpose. if an ADULT wishes to do that, that's a matter between that person and God. But NOT for the child who's too young to understand these things.

family planning should be just-as-obvious. If one can't afford a new sofa, he can't afford a new child.

 

[JonC]

for me I would try to simply do whatever my conscience felt the Word told me to do

I absolutely agree with this statement. When you form opinions about what other people should do in regards to birth control measures are you affording them the same liberty of conscience to simply obey God's direction in their lives?