Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[HankD]

Not because of their sin but because they are subject to sin and death. Through Adam's sin death entered the world. Another similar issue is how Christ could have died without having himself sinned. It is because Christ became a curse for us, subjected Himself under the same bondage we suffered under. Our iniquities were laid upon Him and He shared in our "infirmity".

Like Scripture says, the natural man is first, then the spiritual man.

when Adam sinned we all sinned

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[church mouse guy]

Again, this has to do with how you define spiritually alive. I say Scripture teaches both that Adam was alive and then dead spiritually after the Fall.

I don't understand the thinking that Adam is something other than a normal human being just because he was created perfect.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't understand the thinking that Adam is something other than a normal human being just because he was created perfect.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Who argued that he was something other than a normal human being?

 

[Yeshua1]

Then Adam did not die on the day he ate of the fruit. I understand you reject that interpretation. But if he did not die on that day, remember this is how MANY people interpret it, then Scripture is false and in error. It unravels everything actually.

Not to mention, you have a major problem of why did Adam need a savior? How was he able to become dead in sin if he was never alive? Dead in sin is not a physical reality it is a spiritual reality.

It also destroys the theology of Paul in Him contrasting Adam and the second Adam!

 

[church mouse guy]

Who argued that he was something other than a normal human being?

Well saying that he didn't or couldn't die spiritually makes him abnormal in my book, doesn't it in yours?

 

[Reformed1689]

Well saying that he didn't or couldn't die spiritually makes him abnormal in my book, doesn't it in yours?

Ah I see what you are saying. What I still don't understand from @JonC is what does being dead in sin mean exactly? How does that relate to us? How does it relate to Adam pre-fall and post-fall?

 

[MartyF]

Really? Seems to me it has been in use since the first century.

Ephesians 2:1

You're right I didn't say that well and as a result what I said was wrong.

I meant to disagree with the idea of two different deaths being alluded to in the passage of Genesis. Sometimes people see the "die die" in Hebrew to mean two different deaths and I disagree with that.

For me, the more proper way of thinking is that sin leads to death. Ezekiel 33:12 - 16 I don't believe in the "spiritual death" in the Greek philosophical sense but rather in the Old Testament sense. This is how Ephesians reads in the NLT.

Ephesians 2:1-3 NLT
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. [2] You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. [3] All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

Notice the wording of the first verse is just completely different. As a result, the passage reads quite differently. At the same time I did look up the preposition for translated to "in" in greek in the ESV and KJV and can't really find a reason for that choice. Regardless, I was looking and thinking of the following passage when I replied to you:

Romans 5:15 NLT
But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.

I won't quote the entire passage 12-21. But that was the passage I was thinking of when I responded to you.

Sometimes on this forum, I am overly contentious. As a result I have to take a step back and re-examine what I wrote as I do make mistakes.

 

[MartyF]

The term appears twice in Ephesians 2:1-6. You might also try John 6:53; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 5:6; Revelation 3:1.

I forgot Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60.

You can look these up in the NLT and see how different many of them are.

Also read my response and clarification to my previous wrong answer in #107

 

[MB]

Why do we die?

The death Paul speaks of as spiritual is not death as in not being mobile, but death means separated from God we become separated because of sin. This is the death Paul is speaking about. We are not born dead spiritually but we are once we sin. We are not responsible for Adam's sin Adam is.
MB

 

[MB]

Then Adam did not die on the day he ate of the fruit. I understand you reject that interpretation. But if he did not die on that day, remember this is how MANY people interpret it, then Scripture is false and in error. It unravels everything actually.

Not to mention, you have a major problem of why did Adam need a savior? How was he able to become dead in sin if he was never alive? Dead in sin is not a physical reality it is a spiritual reality.

Adam dying on the day he sinned is not in scripture therefore is not an interpretation but speculation.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Adam dying on the day he sinned is not in scripture therefore is not an interpretation but speculation.
MB

That is your opinion, I disagree.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You can look these up in the NLT and see how different many of them are.

No doubt I can, but that does not mean the NLT is correct. I don't like the translation. It is too much of a paraphrase for me.

Also read my response and clarification to my previous wrong answer in #107

That's OK; we all make mistakes. However, whichever translation one uses, the fact is that according to Ephesians 2:1, the Ephesians were dead, but they were still alive. There is a sense in which they were dead, but their hearts were still beating. So in what sense do you think they were dead?

 

[Reformed1689]

No doubt I can, but that does not mean the NLT is correct. I don't like the translation. It is too much of a paraphrase for me.

That's OK; we all make mistakes. However, whichever translation one uses, the fact is that according to Ephesians 2:1, the Ephesians were dead, but they were still alive. There is a sense in which they were dead, but their hearts were still beating. So in what sense do you think they were dead?

That is what they continually fail to address.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Adam dying on the day he sinned is not in scripture therefore is not an interpretation but speculation.
MB

I really don't see how it's not in Scripture. '.....In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die' (Genesis 2:17). Did Adam eat of it? Yes, he did. Is God a liar? No, He isn't. Therefore Adam died. But he lived another 900 years or so. Did God say, "900 years after you eat of it you shall surely die"? No, He didn't.
In the day that he ate, Adam died spiritually, as is shown by his becoming conscious of his shame, hiding from God, blaming Him for giving him Eve and being thrown out of the garden.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is what they continually fail to address.

There's a great pile of stuff not being addressed.
If God is not the author of evil, how come He creates a man dead in trespasses and sins?
How come the Scripture says that man was created upright if Adam was just a regular sinner from birth (Psalms 51:5)?
How come the 'good' creation became 'very good' after the creation of man if the man created was a sinner?
How come death entered the world through sin (Romans 5:12) if Adam was going to die whether he sinned or not?

 

[AustinC]

@JonC you keep saying that Adam was not spiritually alive, but acknowledge he was dead in sin after his sin. So what was he before he was dead? Just in some state of limbo?

Apparently he was a golem.

 

[AustinC]

He's answered this about a half dozen times already.



JonC says before the Fall Adam was "not spiritual". Therefore, according to JonC, he was not "spiritually alive". (Jon, correct me if I'm overstepping and not presenting your position correctly.)

He was a golem.

 

[MB]

I really don't see how it's not in Scripture. '.....In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die' (Genesis 2:17). Did Adam eat of it? Yes, he did. Is God a liar? No, He isn't. Therefore Adam died. But he lived another 900 years or so. Did God say, "900 years after you eat of it you shall surely die"? No, He didn't.
In the day that he ate, Adam died spiritually, as is shown by his becoming conscious of his shame, hiding from God, blaming Him for giving him Eve and being thrown out of the garden.

No God is not a liar Adam did die but his death was of the body. God did not say he would die spiritually, or when. This is the Calvinist Idea and it isn't true or God would have said he would die spiritually. I'm sorry but you seem to be full of assumptions. Take God's word for what it says and stop adding to it.
MB.

 

[MB]

There's a great pile of stuff not being addressed.
If God is not the author of evil, how come He creates a man dead in trespasses and sins?
How come the Scripture says that man was created upright if Adam was just a regular sinner from birth (Psalms 51:5)?
How come the 'good' creation became 'very good' after the creation of man if the man created was a sinner?
How come death entered the world through sin (Romans 5:12) if Adam was going to die whether he sinned or not?

God does not create men dead in there sins. Men are born in to sin not born sinners. You need to read it again. With out your presumed ideas
MB.

 

[AustinC]

No God is not a liar Adam did die but his death was of the body. God did not say he would die spiritually, or when. This is the Calvinist Idea and it isn't true or God would have said he would die spiritually. I'm sorry but you seem to be full of assumptions. Take God's word for what it says and stop adding to it.
MB.

Is the spirit of Adam haunting the doors of your church? [emoji317]