Fear and OSAS

[The Biblicist]

1. It is not a "nation" lost or saved. The "you" is each individual saint in the church in Rome and by extension in all the Christian church in all ages. It is not a claim that "all nations of Gentiles are standing by their faith" and are saved and should be warned from falling. - obviously.

I asked you, who is it that was "cut off" in this passage. It wasn't the gentile christians! It was not the present Jewish "remnant" of which Paul was part. Therefore who is it that was cut off? Be honest Bob! Tell the truth. You have been playing the part of a deceiver about your answer to this question.

1. It was not Gentiles
2. It was not the Jewish Remnant
3. What is left after this process of elmination but the NATION of Israel?????????

Who is left that could be cut off Bob????

Let me help you a little. Whoever it was, they were cut off for "unbelief." Now were they believers in Christ and later became unbelievers in Christ?

Let me help you a little. Whoever it was, they are called "Israel" and yet they are not Gentiles saved or lost. They are not the "remnant" Jews as the "remnant" Jews were never cut off.

They were the CHRIST REJECTING NATION OF ISRAEL as a nation. Hence, being cut off has nothing to do with individual salvation at all.

The "you" refers to the Gentile remnant of true believers as evidence that God is still calling a people out of the Gentile nations and the GENTILES Nations have not yet rejected Christ as a whole as did Israel as a nation. When the Gentile nations come to the point of rejecting Christ as did Israel then God will turn away from them and cut them off as He did Israel because of their unbelief. But now, the Gentile believers are evidence that Gentile nations have not corporately rejected Christ and so they still stand by faith or the fact that Gentiles are still coming to faith. However, the time of Gentile rejection of Christ is near - Rom. 11:25. That time will come when "the fullness of the Gentile" elect have come in and God's redemptive purpose is finished with the Gentile nations and his promise to Abraham as a father of "many nations" has been fulfilled.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I haven't replied in my own thread yet because I wanted to give it time for everyone who desired to be able to offer their thoughts first. I haven't even read the thread until just now. I'll still wait a while longer before replying more specifically. I will say that there have been many good responses, even those that I disagree with. But from reading a few things, I am almost sorry I started the thread. I say "almost" because, regardless of that, I still believe the thread is worthwhile and there are many good posts in it.

 

[BobRyan]

I asked you, who is it that was "cut off" in this passage. It wasn't the gentile christians! It was not the present Jewish "remnant" of which Paul was part. Therefore who is it that was cut off? Be honest Bob!

it is "individuals" in the Jewish nation that did not accept the news about Jesus being the long expected Messiah. Saved prior to that time - but lost when they rejected that unfolding of truth in their day.

Just as it is "individuals" among the gentiles that did accept the Gospel and were "standing only by their faith".

What we can NOT claim is that all Jews were lost or that all gentiles are saved.



"Tell the truth. You have been playing the part of a deceiver..."

To quote someone on this board.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let me help you a little. Whoever it was, they were cut off for "unbelief." Now were they believers in Christ and later became unbelievers in Christ?

Let me help you a little. Whoever it was, they are called "Israel" and yet they are not Gentiles saved or lost. They are not the "remnant" Jews as the "remnant" Jews were never cut off.

Hint - that leaves the saved Jews who had not yet heard that Jesus had come as the long expected Messiah - and then upon hearing it they rejected it - thus "Falling" thus being "cut off" - yet they can be "Restored AGAIN if they do not continue in UNbelief".

This is not about any specific gentile nation being the new chosen nation - neither is it about all the Jews being lost.

Individuals rejected the message - and individuals accepted it - among the Jews.

The "you" refers to the Gentile remnant of true believers as evidence that God is still calling a people out of the Gentile nations

Hint: God is still calling people out of BOTH the Gentile AND the Jewish nation to accept Christ.

Impossible to ignore.

and the GENTILES Nations have not yet rejected Christ as a whole as did Israel as a nation.

What is more - unless you are going to argue that all Jews in the OT were lost - then this is a case of the SAVED - becoming LOST when they hear about Christ as the Messiah and reject that revelation from God.

The gentile nations of Paul's day HAD fully rejected the God of the Bible - and were in outright total paganism.

obviously.

====================

1. It is not a "nation" lost or saved. The "you" is each individual saint in the church in Rome and by extension in all the Christian church in all ages. It is not a claim that "all nations of Gentiles are standing by their faith" and are saved and should be warned from falling. - obviously.

Paul points out that some individuals have accepted and some have rejected the good news about Christ.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8

Those who reject it - lost there salvation. This is not all the Jews - it is only some of them - those who rejected the news of the Gospel when they learned about Jesus being the Christ. For "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". This does not refer to Jews like Paul - but Jews like those who rejected the news about Jesus as the Christ and were then lost.

But what is even more important is that the "you who stand only by your faith" are in the SAME danger as those Jews who reject the Gospel when they learn about it.

Saving truth is "the next truth" - the next "inconvenient truth".

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Quote:
those he is threatening to be cut off are not individuals either but GENTILES nations as a whole

The Gentile nations were all pagan. None of the gentile nations were "standing by faith alone" or "Standing only by their faith". By far the majority of gentiles in ALL nations at the writing of Romans 11 - were pagans. Not Christians standing by faith.

I think you will have to agree that this point is obvious to all of us.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Hint - that leaves the saved Jews who had not yet heard that Jesus had come as the long expected Messiah - and then upon hearing it they rejected it - thus "Falling" thus being "cut off" - yet they can be "Restored AGAIN if they do not continue in UNbelief".

Nice try but no oscar! Your interpetation is impossble!

The Jewish saved are called the "remnant" in contrast to "Israel" and the remenant is never said to be cut off but only Israel who did not obtain it.

how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It is "Israel" that is placed in contrast to the "remnant" of true believers IN Israel. The "remnant" is never said to be cut off but election hath obtained salvation for the "remnant." In contrast "Israel" hath not obtained savlation (v. 7). You are saying the very reverse as Paul. He says that "Israel" hath not obtained salvation and it is this "Israel" that has been rejected and cut off by God:

Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The "remnant" represents the saved Jews and they have "obtained it" and they are never said to be cut off. It is "Israel" that has NOT OBTAINED IT and have been cut off. Your position directly contradicts Paul's words. You say they did "obtain" salvation and then lost it. Paul says they did not "obtain it. You cannot lose what you never obtained.

Moreover, the "remenant" is not being contrasted to the "gentiles" but "Israel" is being contrasted to the Gentiles, the Israel that NEVER obtained salvation.

 

[drfuss]

[QUOTE

It is a common occurence that many faithful born again Christians after reaching old age lose the mental balance (alzheimer's, etc.) and often deny the faith and resort back to a life characterized by their fallen nature. Why? Because the Christian life is a battle that is fought by intentionally yeilding to the Holy Spirit. When that ability to intentionally yield is lost due to disease then the old nature resumes complete control but that person has not lost their salvation because our salvation is not based upon our ability to yield to the Spirit or "good" works but the works and Person of Jesus Christ in our stead.

Likewise, true believers may be MENTALLY led astray into denying the Grace of God due to false doctrine without falling from the STATE or POSITION of grace. See my thread on Galatians 5:4 for a much more detailed defense of this position. .[/QUOTE]

The above is in response to the Stanley and Hodges OSAS belief that a True Christian can stop trusting Christ and will still go to heaven in his unbelief state.

The 8th chapter of Stanley's book entitled "eternal security, you can be sure", says a Christian who stops believing, that his sins are still forgiven and will go to heaven. The book says nothing about mental problems or Alzheimer's. it talks about a Christian making an intentional decision to stop trusting Christ. If you do not believe me, please check it out yourself.

 

[BobRyan]

[QUOTE

The above is in response to the Stanley and Hodges OSAS belief that a True Christian can stop trusting Christ and will still go to heaven in his unbelief state.

The 8th chapter of Stanley's book entitled "eternal security, you can be sure", says a Christian who stops believing, that his sins are still forgiven and will go to heaven. The book says nothing about mental problems or Alzheimer's. it talks about a Christian making an intentional decision to stop trusting Christ. If you do not believe me, please check it out yourself.

John speaks to the claim of "knowing Christ while living like the devil" in 1John 2;3-6

It does not support OSAS.

It goes something like this -

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hint - that leaves the saved Jews who had not yet heard that Jesus had come as the long expected Messiah - and then upon hearing it they rejected it - thus "Falling" thus being "cut off" - yet they can be "Restored AGAIN if they do not continue in UNbelief".

This is not about any specific gentile nation being the new chosen nation - neither is it about all the Jews being lost.

Individuals rejected the message - and individuals accepted it - among the Jews.

Hint: God is still calling people out of BOTH the Gentile AND the Jewish nation to accept Christ.

Impossible to ignore.



What is more - unless you are going to argue that all Jews in the OT were lost - then this is a case of the SAVED - becoming LOST when they hear about Christ as the Messiah and reject that revelation from God.

The gentile nations of Paul's day HAD fully rejected the God of the Bible - and were in outright total paganism.

obviously.

====================

1. It is not a "nation" lost or saved. The "you" is each individual saint in the church in Rome and by extension in all the Christian church in all ages. It is not a claim that "all nations of Gentiles are standing by their faith" and are saved and should be warned from falling. - obviously.

Paul points out that some individuals have accepted and some have rejected the good news about Christ.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8

Those who reject it - lost there salvation. This is not all the Jews - it is only some of them - those who rejected the news of the Gospel when they learned about Jesus being the Christ. For "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". This does not refer to Jews like Paul - but Jews like those who rejected the news about Jesus as the Christ and were then lost.

But what is even more important is that the "you who stand only by your faith" are in the SAME danger as those Jews who reject the Gospel when they learn about it.

Saving truth is "the next truth" - the next "inconvenient truth".

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.




The Gentile nations were all pagan. None of the gentile nations were "standing by faith alone" or "Standing only by their faith". By far the majority of gentiles in ALL nations at the writing of Romans 11 - were pagans. Not Christians standing by faith.

I think you will have to agree that this point is obvious to all of us.


in Christ,

Bob

Nice try but no oscar! Your interpetation is impossble!

I was merely stating the obvious known to every reader on this board.

1. The Gentile nations were not all Christians nor was even one of them Christian at the time of Romans 11.

2. The gentile nations were in fact - pagan.

3. Not all the Jews were lost - according to Romans 11:2-5

4. Paul's goal was to try and save "SOME of them" Romans 11:14 - individual salvation - obviously.

5. Not all Jews were going to hell prior to the time of Christ - for Paul describes them as among the saints in Heb 11.

6. Of the JEws that "fell" from that saved state Paul says "He is able to graft them in AGAIN" in 11:23 and Paul points to Gentile Christians ( who stand only by your faith - although a great minority among the gentiles) as in the same state from which the unbelieving Jews FELL - and TO WHICH God is able to "restore them AGAIN".

These points are impossible to ignore. I was merely stating the obvious.

The Jewish saved are called the "remnant" in contrast to "Israel" and the remenant is never said to be cut off but only Israel who did not obtain it.

True - as Paul points out also in the case of Elijah - but Paul claims that both groups are Jews and in Romans 9:6 context leading up to this Paul claims that Israel can be said to include both the saved Jews and the saved Gentiles - and not at all to contain unsaved Jews or unsaved Gentiles. So take your pick.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

I was merely stating the obvious known to every reader on this board.

That generalization is mere imagination on your part and is not true and you cannot prove the truth of it.

1. The Gentile nations were not all Christians nor was even one of them Christian at the time of Romans 11.

That is not Paul's point. The Gentile nations have not been presented the gospel as has the nation of Israel and therefore have not rejected the gospel as has Israel AS A NATION. The very fact that Israel AS A NATION rejected Christ is the reason they were "cut off" AS A NATION from the exclusive benefits (Rom. 9:5).

3. Not all the Jews were lost - according to Romans 11:2-5

Again, you are missing his point. The Jews that are not lost are included in the "remnant' in every generation including the "present" generation which is placed in direct contrast to the "Israel" AS A NATION.

4. Paul's goal was to try and save "SOME of them" Romans 11:14 - individual salvation - obviously.

Again, that would be the "present" remnant which is placed in contrast to "Israel" AS A NATION. Saved jews in this context are NEVER considered to be existing outside the "remnant" and the "remnant" during the times of the gentiles is NEVER regarded as "Israel" AS A NATION. However, your only hope is to MIX the two and that is precisely what you are attempting to do in your rationale and interpretation! Can't be honestly done if the context is handled by sound rules of interpretation.

5. Not all Jews were going to hell prior to the time of Christ - for Paul describes them as among the saints in Heb 11.

Again, the saved Jews in all generations including the "present" are regarded as part of the generational "remnant" NEVER "Israel" AS A NATION. Again, you must MIX the two together to support your false interpretation.

6. Of the JEws that "fell" from that saved state Paul says "He is able to graft them in AGAIN" in 11:23 and Paul points to Gentile Christians ( who stand only by your faith - although a great minority among the gentiles) as in the same state from which the unbelieving Jews FELL - and TO WHICH God is able to "restore them AGAIN".

First he NEVER says "the Jews" that fell but it is "ISRAEL" that has fallen. No Jew regarded in the "remnant" is ever descibed as fallen, or "cut off." That is your pure imaginative HOPE to sustain your false interpetation.

 

[The Biblicist]

[QUOTE

It is a common occurence that many faithful born again Christians after reaching old age lose the mental balance (alzheimer's, etc.) and often deny the faith and resort back to a life characterized by their fallen nature. Why? Because the Christian life is a battle that is fought by intentionally yeilding to the Holy Spirit. When that ability to intentionally yield is lost due to disease then the old nature resumes complete control but that person has not lost their salvation because our salvation is not based upon our ability to yield to the Spirit or "good" works but the works and Person of Jesus Christ in our stead.

Likewise, true believers may be MENTALLY led astray into denying the Grace of God due to false doctrine without falling from the STATE or POSITION of grace. See my thread on Galatians 5:4 for a much more detailed defense of this position.

The above is in response to the Stanley and Hodges OSAS belief that a True Christian can stop trusting Christ and will still go to heaven in his unbelief state.

The 8th chapter of Stanley's book entitled "eternal security, you can be sure", says a Christian who stops believing, that his sins are still forgiven and will go to heaven. The book says nothing about mental problems or Alzheimer's. it talks about a Christian making an intentional decision to stop trusting Christ. If you do not believe me, please check it out yourself.

I am not charging you with misrepresenting Stanley. I am merely explaining why some can intentionally repudiate Christ due to mental instability caused either by disease or false teachng - deception. The Galatians are examples of those who had "fallen from grace" in regard to false teaching and thus inadervtantly intentionally denied Christ through deception. A deceived person does act by intention due to perverted thinking.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

1. Hi Thomas, sorry not to see you posting much up in the baptist section anymore.

2. I don't think you can relegate all belief in OSAS to fear, because there are those of us who ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES IT! (Imagine that). We have looked at both sides of the issue and believe that several key passages point to a security that a true believer will not become an unbeleiver.

3. How does this ultimate freedom God gives us work in heaven and the new creation? Do you believe people will occasionally be abandoning their faith for all eternity? And if you say, "Well, God's glory will be so great that they won't want to abandon him." Isn't that still a kind of limit God is imposing on our wills?

1. Thank you for your concern.

2. I realize that.

3. I don't know the answer to that since I am not infallible or omniscient, unlike one on here.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What I take out of the OSAS debates is the opponents of OSAS believe the OSAS proponents do not fear God. They call it "easy believism" and say those who hold to OSAS just like to sin at will without any fear of God's nature to punish sin.

I've found there are differing view points which come out from the anti-OSAS camp, and the camp is divided about how one would lose their salvation after being born again.

1) you will lose your salvation for any kind of sin, one must never sin.

2) you will lose your salvation for only "habitual" sin, no one can define what is meant by "habitual" though.

3) you can lose your salvation for unrepented of sin, if in the act of a sin and you were to die, you would lose your salvation.

4) you can lose your salvation for lack of "continuing" works, past works do not count, there must be works being performed always.

5) one can lose their salvation by stopping to believe in Jesus Christ, which is stopping to believe in that which they have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. This one sounds very strange.

I am curious as to which position you would take Thomas. Is it sin, disobedience (same as sin I guess) , is it lack of good works (how many short or none at all, do past works count or must they be active each day) , is it sins unrepented of (although not currently active in) , is it simply by faith alone and one deciding they will not believe in Jesus anymore (not sure why that would be if it is by faith alone and not works or sin) .

None of the ones you listed.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am not a Calvinist, but I believe OSAS. I do not believe in perseverance of the saints, that is works salvation, I believe in preservation of the saints, that is, that I am kept by God, and this is why I cannot lose salvation.

Some of the scriptures that I believe support this;

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Jesus says the person who has believed on him has "passed" from death to life. It is a done deal, we are no longer dead in trespasses and sins. If all of our sins have been forgiven, how can we lose salvation?

Note that Jesus himself says we shall not come into condemnation. If we could stop believing in the future and become condemned again, then Jesus's words would not be true. And we know Jesus never lies.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No person who has truly trusted Jesus will ever fall away, because he is now a new creature. Our spirit has been joined to the Holy Spirit and now we are one spirit. We are partakers of the divine nature. We cannot fall away in unbelief, because our "seed" remains in us and we cannot sin.

So, I am not saved because I will persevere and always be faithful to Jesus. Anybody who thinks that is fooling themselves. No, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. Anyone who sincerely comes to Jesus will be saved and in no wise cast out. And once we are saved we are joined to the Holy Spirit, we are sealed to the day of redemption. We are partakers of the divine nature, and we cannot fall away in sin because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us.

Trust me, I am as far from Calvinism as you can possibly get, I believe Calvinism is the most false doctrine that ever came down the pike, but I believe once we trust Jesus we are always saved and cannot be lost.

I am probably closer to you in my beliefs than anyone here, and I know you're not a Calvinist. I remain curious, though, as to how and why you believe OSAS, even with your explanation above.

Let me ask you this: How were Adam in the garden and Lucifer when in heaven able to reject their union with God? They were in a state more perfect than we are after our conversion because we still have weakened and damaged wills, but they did not before their rebellion. So, if they were able to rebel and reject their perfect union with God, why are we not able to reject our salvation? Yes, we are kept but not compelled: We are kept as long as we are faithful and do not rebel and turn our backs on Jesus. Our will remains free to do that if we choose. If Adam, Lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer had the God-given ability and freedom of will to do that in their "perfect" state, then so do we in our imperfect state, even though we have accepted Jesus. We still have the God-given, God-endowed ability and freedom to reject what we once accepted. And there is abundant scripture to support this position, as has been pointed out by me and others.

But it is refreshing to have a good debate with someone like you who can discuss in a civil and Christlike manner. This is where new light can break through and common ground can be found.

So, I thank you, Steaver, Bob, DHK, and others for your contributions to this thread.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am probably closer to you in my beliefs than anyone here, and I know you're not a Calvinist. I remain curious, though, as to how and why you believe OSAS, even with your explanation above.

Let me ask you this: How were Adam in the garden and Lucifer when in heaven able to reject their union with God? They were in a state more perfect than we are after our conversion because we still have weakened and damaged wills, but they did not before their rebellion. So, if they were able to rebel and reject their perfect union with God, why are we not able to reject our salvation? Yes, we are kept but not compelled: We are kept as long as we are faithful and do not rebel and turn our backs on Jesus. Our will remains free to do that if we choose. If Adam, Lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer had the God-given ability and freedom of will to do that in their "perfect" state, then so do we in our imperfect state, even though we have accepted Jesus. We still have the God-given, God-endowed ability and freedom to reject what we once accepted. And there is abundant scripture to support this position, as has been pointed out by me and others.

But it is refreshing to have a good debate with someone like you who can discuss in a civil and Christlike manner. This is where new light can break through and common ground can be found.

So, I thank you, Steaver, Bob, DHK, and others for your contributions to this thread.

As long as you reject the idea that the fall brought the human will into the bondage sin as described in Romans 8:7 then little can be added to your conclusions.

There is differences in abiltiy and conditions. The condition prior to the fall was good works and they had the ability IN AND OF THEMSELVES to satisfy the demands.

The condition after the fall is still good works but they do not have the ability IN AND OF THEMSELVES to satisfy the demands due to the fall. This called for the provision of God's grace due to their inability.

Christ acted in their behalf to satisfy all the demands of violated Law of God by them both in his active and passive obedience thus securing obedience to the conditions.

In addition God did a creative work within them, providing a new nature like unto God's own moral nature created in "righteousness and true holiness" which by nature cannot sin and is a completed work of salvation fully glorified in the presence of God as God dwells within that new man. The purpose of the new creation is not to obtain entrance into heaven but to work in them "both to will and to do of His good pleasure" to whatever degree He has determined for the use of their life, and what he hath begun he will continue until the day of redemption in a progressive but incomplete manner through their souls and bodies and all by grace until it is completed in glorification.

The unregenerated nature still lives within them, never has and never can repent and never will but must be destroyed in death or glorification. It never "wills" to to do good - Rom. 7:18.

 

[Winman]

I am probably closer to you in my beliefs than anyone here, and I know you're not a Calvinist. I remain curious, though, as to how and why you believe OSAS, even with your explanation above.

Let me ask you this: How were Adam in the garden and Lucifer when in heaven able to reject their union with God? They were in a state more perfect than we are after our conversion because we still have weakened and damaged wills, but they did not before their rebellion. So, if they were able to rebel and reject their perfect union with God, why are we not able to reject our salvation? Yes, we are kept but not compelled: We are kept as long as we are faithful and do not rebel and turn our backs on Jesus. Our will remains free to do that if we choose. If Adam, Lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer had the God-given ability and freedom of will to do that in their "perfect" state, then so do we in our imperfect state, even though we have accepted Jesus. We still have the God-given, God-endowed ability and freedom to reject what we once accepted. And there is abundant scripture to support this position, as has been pointed out by me and others.

But it is refreshing to have a good debate with someone like you who can discuss in a civil and Christlike manner. This is where new light can break through and common ground can be found.

So, I thank you, Steaver, Bob, DHK, and others for your contributions to this thread.

We are born flesh, which is corruptible. That of course means the ability to be corrupted. This is why we can fall.

When we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed. It cannot fall. The scripture says we cannot sin, because our seed remains in us.

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

We were born of corruptible flesh, therefore we could fall. But when we are born again, we are washed clean (vs. 22) and married and joined to the Holy Spirit, becoming one spirit (1 Cor 6:17). Now we are born again of incorruptible seed that cannot sin and fall away in unbelief, as we are partakers of the divine nature. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we are made from a union of our spirit and the Holy Spirit. We are a new creature. We are not God, we are individuals.

It is like a child, he is made of both his mother and his father, but he is neither, he is a new creation, and he is an individual. It is the same in the spiritual birth.

It is that part of us that is the Holy Spirit that prevents us from falling away in unbelief. It is the incorruptible seed that remains with us and abides with us forever.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No one had the indwelling Holy Spirit until Jesus was raised from the dead and glorified. But Jesus promised that he would send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) who would abide with us FOR EVER, and would BE IN YOU.

This is why I believe it is impossible to lose salvation.

I agree there are many scriptures that on first glance appear to say a person can lose salvation, but I think they are speaking of falling away in unbelief before a person ever believes and is sealed forever by the Holy Spirit.

But the reason we could originally fall is because all we had was man's spirit, our natural spirit which is corruptible and could fall into unbelief.

I hope I have explained this well.

 

[BobRyan]

Let me ask you this: How were Adam in the garden and Lucifer when in heaven able to reject their union with God? They were in a state more perfect than we are after our conversion because we still have weakened and damaged wills, but they did not before their rebellion. So, if they were able to rebel and reject their perfect union with God, why are we not able to reject our salvation? .

We have sinful natures even after we are born again.

Adam and Lucifer never had a sinful nature prior to the moment that they chose to sin.

Free will is one of the foundation principles upon which God builds His universe.

At every point of the story - God could have saved Himself a lot of death, torment, suffering , loss by simply revoking free will - and at each decision point - He chose to affirm free will - at all costs - even at the cost of His own Son.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

Hint - that leaves the saved Jews who had not yet heard that Jesus had come as the long expected Messiah - and then upon hearing it they rejected it - thus "Falling" thus being "cut off" - yet they can be "Restored AGAIN if they do not continue in UNbelief".

This is not about any specific gentile nation being the new chosen nation - neither is it about all the Jews being lost.

Individuals rejected the message - and individuals accepted it - among the Jews.

Hint: God is still calling people out of BOTH the Gentile AND the Jewish nation to accept Christ.

Impossible to ignore.



What is more - unless you are going to argue that all Jews in the OT were lost - then this is a case of the SAVED - becoming LOST when they hear about Christ as the Messiah and reject that revelation from God.

The gentile nations of Paul's day HAD fully rejected the God of the Bible - and were in outright total paganism.

obviously.

====================

1. It is not a "nation" lost or saved. The "you" is each individual saint in the church in Rome and by extension in all the Christian church in all ages. It is not a claim that "all nations of Gentiles are standing by their faith" and are saved and should be warned from falling. - obviously.

Paul points out that some individuals have accepted and some have rejected the good news about Christ.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8

Those who reject it - lost there salvation. This is not all the Jews - it is only some of them - those who rejected the news of the Gospel when they learned about Jesus being the Christ. For "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". This does not refer to Jews like Paul - but Jews like those who rejected the news about Jesus as the Christ and were then lost.

But what is even more important is that the "you who stand only by your faith" are in the SAME danger as those Jews who reject the Gospel when they learn about it.

Saving truth is "the next truth" - the next "inconvenient truth".

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.




The Gentile nations were all pagan. None of the gentile nations were "standing by faith alone" or "Standing only by their faith". By far the majority of gentiles in ALL nations at the writing of Romans 11 - were pagans. Not Christians standing by faith.

I think you will have to agree that this point is obvious to all of us.


in Christ,

Bob

the jewish people on the whole rejected/refused jesus as their promised messiah, so they were NEVER sabved and then cut off, always were cut off!

 

[Yeshua1]

We have sinful natures even after we are born again.

Adam and Lucifer never had a sinful nature prior to the moment that they chose to sin.

Free will is one of the foundation principles upon which God builds His universe.

At every point of the story - God could have saved Himself a lot of death, torment, suffering , loss by simply revoking free will - and at each decision point - He chose to affirm free will - at all costs - even at the cost of His own Son.

in Christ,

Bob

Sinners have corrupted/base wills, free to choose, but are limite din whatthey can freely choose!

God NEVER has based salvation upon human free will, as not can choose jesus apart from His grace and mercy he extends first to them!

 

[BobRyan]

The Gospel enables and PRESERVES free will - in spite of the depravity of the sinful nature "old things passed away all things become new" - thus the Bible presents SLAVERY of the will as slavery to sin.

But the supernatural drawing of God "I will draw ALL unto Me" enables all that free will choice that the sinful nature disables - EVEN by Calvinist standards.

Far beit for Arminians to turn a blind eye to it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

the jewish people on the whole rejected/refused jesus as their promised messiah, !

The pagan nations of Paul's day - chose idols and demons over the God of the Bible.

I think we all knew that.

in Christ,

Bob