Yes - they were not doing what they should be doing but the word DOES mean drunkenness, not stinginess.
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Fermented and Unfermented Wine
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Yes - they were not doing what they should be doing but the word DOES mean drunkenness, not stinginess.
No one has slandered you.
This also is false. Yet you have called others names.
I thought you just said that in the Lord's Supper wine was never fermented. Was it not wine that used there. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Is this what you believe or not?
If so, you have been very hypocritical in your posts.
Perhaps. So in taking this position you are saying that they used fermented wine. Why are you saying you have been falsely accused?
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
In the context, the word in that verse does not mean drunkenness... it means drink well.
And the rebuke reveals they were being stingy. Drinking their fill and allowing others to go without.
You have tried to. You always try to when we debate.
I defend myself. You are the one who calls me names.
Wine is a fermented drink. Stop being confusing by saying fermented wine. The Bible never says, “Fermented wine.” You say, “I thought you just said that in the Lord’s Supper wine was never fermented.” In this debate, I did not say that it was or was not. Where have I said, "In the Lord's Supper wine was never fermented"? You are making things up.
I said I did not say Jesus said “wine.” You went to another thread where I quoted from the Complete Jewish Bible that says Jesus drank wine at the Passover. I usually go by a translation that says “fruit of the vine.” In this most recent debate with you, I have not said Jesus said wine. However, you lied and said I did. In another thread, I gave scripture from a Bible translation that says wine. You say it would be making Jesus a sinner to say he used wine at the Passover.
Jews use real wine at the Passover.
You see more accusations that are slanderous from you. Stop with the lying attacks.
The translation I normally use, Jesus says at the Passover supper, “Fruit of the vine.” The Complete Jewish Bible says, “Wine.”
I personally believe it was fermented fruit of the vine. However, again, the translation I use says, “Fruit of the Vine.” Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High. Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine. Jesus said, “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they said, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard… Paul gives instruction not to drink too much wine. Wine was used during the religious feasts, with God’s approval, and was accepted as a divine provision. When the Corinthians re-enacted the Lord’s Supper, some of them got drunk (1Corinthians 11:21). I also respect the argument by others here and elsewhere that there was no grape juice to harvest at the time of the Passover.
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1 Corinthians 11:21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
I will note that as a false statement.
You defense of yourself goes as far as to call others blasphemers. Is this the Christian way to do things?
When the KJV was written "wine" even in the English had two different meanings--both grape juice and fermented wine, just like our word cider does today. So it is with yayin and oinos.
Never say never.
So even though we know your position, and you have clearly revealed it, you think you can hide behind vagaries. Sorry that doesn't work here.
I don't know. Did I say that? That is the position I usually take--that it is not fermented wine. But if you agree, then good.
This is a false allegation, as I did not go to another thread. But if you are ashamed to post your position and just try to hide behind vague statements, playing semantical little games, then I have no interest or time for you.
I stated your position. You lied in as much as you were denying that you held it. Like I said, if you are not going to be honest about what you believe I have no time for your semantic little games.
I said that leaven symbolizes false doctrine, sin, malice, wickedness. Would Jesus use that which symbolizes that which corrupts and is sinful to represent his precious blood? No.
Would Jesus use a fermented drink at a wedding to help drunkards get drunk? That would be sin.
So you say. Take it up with Fred.
Hmmm. Take your own advice.
And the Greek condemns the latter as wrong.
A poor translation.
Unfermented wine or juice.
Unfermented wine or grape juice.
And you believe the unsaved false accusers and liars over the Word of God??
Why would there be no grape juice to harvest? Why would there be no grape juice preserved? They were very adept at the preservation of juices.
Sorry but the word is a word meaning drunk.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Your case has no support when compared to God's Word.
Sorry you feel that way. Since you say, “Your case has no support when compared to God's Word” please show me where I have no support in what I have said.
I speak what the Bible says and even gave Hebrew, English, and Greek definitions.
Yayin means wine, and the root word for yayin is to boil up, to ferment.
Wine in English is a fermented drink.
Oinos in Greek means wine. Oino is part of the word that means drunkenness, and part of the word that means tippling.
I can find nowhere in the Bible that says, “Fermented wine.” However, the Bible covers every possible part of the grape: “wine,” vinegar,” “grape juice,” “grapes,” raisins,” even “seeds” and “skins” from the grapevine. See Numbers 6:3 and 4.
The Bible confirms that wine is a fermented drink when it says to abstain from “wine and other fermented drink.” See Numbers 6:3; Luke 1:15; and Judges 13:4.
Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, Genesis 14:18.
Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine see John 2:1-11. The scriptures confirm that it was alcoholic when the master of the banquet called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
Jesus himself said, “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they said, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, see Matthew 11:19.
Paul gives instruction not to drink too much wine, see 1 Timothy 3:8; and Titus 2:3.
Paul even says to use a little wine, see 1 Timothy 5:23.
Wine was used during the religious feasts, with God’s approval, and was accepted as a divine provision. See Genesis 14:18; Leviticus 10:9; Psalm 104:14,15.
When the Corinthians re-enacted the Lord’s Supper, some of them got drunk (1Corinthians 11:21).
I respect the argument by others here and elsewhere that there was no grape juice to harvest at the time of the Passover. “The last supper was on Passover, at Nisan 14 (April), seven months had elapsed since the harvest of the vine... any grape juice in Palestine would be well fermented.” We know that Jesus' last supper was the Passover meal (Mark 14:14-17).
Jewish tradition was to drink wine, not grape juice, at the Passover. One writer has said, "Oral tradition contained in the Mishnah commanded that even the poorest person must drink the minimum four cups, even if he had to sell himself to do labour or had to borrow money in order to buy the wine" ( Rosen, C. and M. Christ in the Passover. 1978. Page 51).
Please tell me where and how I have not supported what I said with God’s Word.
This is the 'root' of the debate and Moriah has nailed it. Wine "boiling up" means wine that is fermenting. This sort of wine was to be used as an offering to the Lord (Numbers 15)
The Mishnah when speaking of the drink used in the passover and the prayer made over the wine a the third cup specifically addresses it as "the fruit of the vine."
The passover was divided into four cups and a blessing with each cup.
When I was in college in Lexington Kentucky, I would often visit the very Liberal Lexington Theological Seminary where several Jewish Rabbi's attended in obtaining their doctor degrees. I made friends with one Jewish rabbi and asked him if the Jews to his knowledge ever used grape juice in the passover. He first laughed and then said the Jews have never used grape juice in the Passover but red wine. He told me that the only time in history that red wine was not used was during a short period where red wine was associated with a rebellion against Rome and Rome forbade their use of red wine.
Jesus used the materials common to the Passover (Mt. 26:18-19). The Mishnah says this was wine divided into four cups and each cup consisted of three parts water and one part wine for the very purpose to avoid intoxication. The Lord's Supper was instituted at the "third Cup" which they called the "cup of blessing" because they said a special blessing upon the wine in that cup where they used the words "fruit of the vine."
The passover was divided into four cups and a blessing with each cup.
When I was in college in Lexington Kentucky, I would often visit the very Liberal Lexington Theological Seminary where several Jewish Rabbi's attended in obtaining their doctor degrees. I made friends with one Jewish rabbi and asked him if the Jews to his knowledge ever used grape juice in the passover. He first laughed and then said the Jews have never used grape juice in the Passover but red wine. He told me that the only time in history that red wine was not used was during a short period where red wine was associated with a rebellion against Rome and Rome forbade their use of red wine.
Jesus used the materials common to the Passover (Mt. 26:18-19). The Mishnah says this was wine divided into four cups and each cup consisted of three parts water and one part wine for the very purpose to avoid intoxication. The Lord's Supper was instituted at the "third Cup" which they called the "cup of blessing" because they said a special blessing upon the wine in that cup where they used the words "fruit of the vine."
Roots don't give the meaning or definition of the word. They help give the origin of the word, but not the meaning. You are deceived if you think so.
Not everyone agrees with you DHK.
http://www2.southampton.liu.edu/academic/pau/course/webesl.htm
Preparation for an American University Program
Vocabulary Workshop
Vocabulary: Roots, Prefixes and Suffixes
Most words used in the English language today were not originally English. These words were borrowed (taken) from other languages. The majority of English words have Latin or Greek origins. When taking the TOEFL* (Test of English as a Foreign Language), it is helpful to know some of these origins or "roots" of English vocabulary. It may be possible to guess the meaning of an unknown word when one knows the meaning of its root. Knowing prefixes and suffixes can also assist in the process.
An English word can consist of three parts: the root, a prefix and a suffix. The root is the part of the word that contains the basic meaning (definition) of the word. The root is the base element of the word. A prefix is a word element that is placed in front of a root. A prefix changes the word's meaning or makes a new word. A suffix is a word element that is placed after the root. The suffix changes the word's meaning as well as its function (use). Prefixes and suffixes are called affixes because they are attached to a root.
That proves nothing. Hebrew is far different then English, as is Greek.
I gave you an example in English. Do you worship the Sun? Sunday--the day of the sun. No. The meaning of Sunday today--the first day of the week. But you don't accept this do you? The root traces the origin, not the meaning.
In Greek:
Acts 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly
--The Greek word for assembly is ekklesia, the same word that is translated church over one hundred other times in the Bible. Here it is translated correctly.
The roots of the word: It comes from the preposition ek, meaning "out of",
And it comes from the verb "kaleo" meaning "to call," hence "to call out."
But that is not the meaning. The meaning is "assembly" as is correctly translated in Acts 19:41, but not correctly translated over a hundred other times every time the word "church" is used. For a "church" is an "assembly" of believers, according to the Word. There is a word for church, but it is not in the NT. The point is the roots of the ekklesia do not define the word. The meaning is assembly, not "to call out."
The root of yayin has nothing to do with the meaning either, only the origin of the word.