Fermented and Unfermented Wine

[DHK]

You explain what it means "from a root boil up." Explain it DHK. What does it mean to "boil up"?

It is telling you the etymology of the word. What does the word "Sunday" mean to you. It comes from sun and day. It is the day to worship the sun. Those are the roots. But to us that is not the meaning. The meaning is the first day of the week.

The meaning (regardless of the root) is
" whether simple grape juice unfermented, or intoxicating wine"

The root has nothing to do with it.

Both yayin and oinos mean either fermented or unfermented wine.

 

[annsni]

The Word of God tells the reader not to look upon the wine when it is fermented.

That is completely untrue. That is not the meaning of the verse nor the wording of the verse in any translation.

 

[Moriah]

It is telling you the etymology of the word. What does the word "Sunday" mean to you. It comes from sun and day. It is the day to worship the sun. Those are the roots. But to us that is not the meaning. The meaning is the first day of the week.

The meaning (regardless of the root) is
" whether simple grape juice unfermented, or intoxicating wine"

The root has nothing to do with it.

Both yayin and oinos mean either fermented or unfermented wine.

Yayin and oinos does NOT mean either fermented or unfermented wine. You have not proven that. You got a dictionary that you think makes the meaning of yayin sound like you want it to.

Oinos is Greek for wine, it has one meaning---“wine”!

Oinos is wine, with alcohol. Oinophlugia is drunkenness. Just think, the word for wine is also in the word drunkenness. Paraoinos means tippling. Winebibber is oinopotes. Just think, the word of drinking alcohol habitually means tippling, and the Greek word for tippling has the word wine in it---paraOINOS.

Boil up means is to be in ferment, as in fermentation!

Wine The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning "to boil up," "to be in a ferment." See Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

 

[Moriah]

You said yayin is usually fermented grape juice. In our modern world, you would be correct.

I am correct about what it means in the Bible and now.

But the Bible was not written yesterday, much as you would like it to have ben.

You just keep making up stuff as you go along.

It was written nearly 2000 years ago. And the Bible tells us

Proverbs 23:31 (KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Notice it says not to look upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. The operative words you need to focus on are the words "when it". When what? When the wine.. It is speaking of the subject, which is the wine. Don't look upon it when...
When indicates a specific period of time. When what? When it is fermented. Don't look upon it when it is fermented.

With your illogical explanation, it turned from white to red.

Remember those two words when it? They reveal something else about the wine. They reveal that that liquid is called wine at other stages beside when it is fermented. And Isaiah 65:8 reveals that the cluster has wine within it. The unfermented juice of the grape was called wine more than 2000 years ago.

Yayin in the Bible was either fermented or non fermented. Context reveals which.

The wine that Solomon was told to drink abundantly of is not the same wine that Solomon said one is not to look upon. That which was approved of did not cause man to reel. It was the pure blood of the grape. It was not the toxin you are trying to sell on this board.

Is white wine fermented? Lol

 

[DHK]

Yayin and oinos does NOT mean either fermented or unfermented wine. You have not proven that. You got a dictionary that you think makes the meaning of yayin sound like you want it to.

Oinos is Greek for wine, it has one meaning---“wine”!

Oinos is wine, with alcohol. Oinophlugia is drunkenness. Just think, the word for wine is also in the word drunkenness. Paraoinos means tippling. Winebibber is oinopotes. Just think, the word of drinking alcohol habitually means tippling, and the Greek word for tippling has the word wine in it---paraOINOS.

Boil up means is to be in ferment, as in fermentation!

Wine The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning "to boil up," "to be in a ferment." See Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

I just gave you a well reputed Bible dictionary which gave you the definition from the root word and you still deny.

Have you heard of the expression "denying the truth," "being in a state of denial." You are doing just that. When the truth is presented to you, you are obstinate in your arrogance and shut it out in unbelief.

 

[Moriah]

I just gave you a well reputed Bible dictionary which gave you the definition from the root word and you still deny.

Have you heard of the expression "denying the truth," "being in a state of denial." You are doing just that. When the truth is presented to you, you are obstinate in your arrogance and shut it out in unbelief.

The root word is boil up. Boil up means to ferment. To boil up grape juice is to make wine.

You deny the truth.

 

[Moriah]

Proverbs 20:1 does not say it is a mocker to those who are led astray. It says wine is a mocker.

Wine is a mocker whether one drinks it or not.. For those who drink it, it has already deceived them into believing it is safe to drink.

It is not Leslie who is wrong, it is you.

How could Apostle Paul tell Christians to drink some mockery!

 

[DHK]

The root word is boil up. Boil up means to ferment. To boil up grape juice is to make wine.

You deny the truth.

The root word of Sunday is "sun." Do you worship the sun Moriah?
If not why? "Sun" is the root, if we are stressing such importance on roots.

 

[Moriah]

The root word of Sunday is "sun." Do you worship the sun Moriah?
If not why? "Sun" is the root, if we are stressing such importance on roots.

The root to yayin is boil up, and boil up means to ferment.

 

[DHK]

The root to yayin is boil up, and boil up means to ferment.

Both words yayin and oinos had both meanings: fermented and unfermented wine. It is a pity that you are unteachable.
Here is what Smith's dictionary said:

It has been disputed whether the Hebrew wine was fermented; but the impression produced on the mind by a general review of the above notices is that the Hebrew words indicating wine refer to fermented, intoxicating wine. The notices of fermentation are not very decisive.
A certain amount of fermentation is implied in the distension of the leather bottles when new wine was placed in them, and which was liable to burst old bottles. It is very likely that new wine was preserved in the state of must by placing it in jars or bottles and then burying it in the earth.
The mingling that we read of, in conjunction with wine, may have been designed either to increase or to diminish the strength of the wine, according as spices or water formed the ingredient that was added. The notices chiefly favor the former view; for mingled liquor was prepared for high festivals, Pro_9:2; Pro_9:5, and occasions of excess. Pro_23:30; Isa_5:22.
At the same time, strength was not the sole object sought; the wine "mingled with myrrh," given to Jesus, was designed to deaden pain, Mar_15:23, and the spiced pomegranate wine prepared by the bride, Son_8:2, may well have been of a mild character.
In the New Testament, the character of the "sweet wine," noticed in Act_2:13, calls for some little remark. It could not be new wine, in the proper sense of the term, inasmuch as about eight months must have elapsed between the vintage and the Feast of Pentecost. The explanations of the ancient lexicographers rather lead us to infer that its luscious qualities were due, not to its being recently made, but to its being produced from the very purest juice of the grape.
There can be little doubt that the wines of Palestine varied in quality, and were named after the localities in which they were made. The only wines of which we have special notice, belonged to Syria, these were the wine of Helbon Eze_27:18, and the wine of Lebanon, famed for its aroma. Hos_14:7.
With regard to the uses of wine in private life, there is little to remark. It was produced on occasions of ordinary hospitality, Gen_14:18, and at festivals, such as marriages. Joh_2:3.
Under the Mosaic law, wine formed the usual drink offering that accompanied the daily sacrifice, Exo_29:40, the presentation of the first-fruits, Lev_23:13, and other offerings. Num_15:5.
Tithe was to be paid of wine, as of other products. The priest was also to receive first-fruits of wine, as of other articles. Deu_18:4. Compare Exo_22:29. The use of wine at the Paschal Feast was not enjoined by the law, but had become an established custom, at all events in the post-Babylonian period. The wine was mixed with warm water on these occasions.
Hence, in the early Christian Church, it was usual to mix the sacramental wine with water. (The simple wines of antiquity were incomparably less deadly than the stupefying and ardent beverages of our western nations. The wines of antiquity were more like sirups; many of them were not intoxicant; many more intoxicant in a small degree; and all of them, as a rule, taken only when largely diluted with water. They contained, even undiluted, but 4 or 5 percent of alcohol. -- Cannon Farrar).

Consider that Nyquil is 25% alcohol. Their undiluted alcohol is only 4-5% alcohol. It can hardly be considered alcohol at that concentration. Even then most were highly diluted with water. Thus the percentage of alcohol would be down to 1% or less.



Most people just don't get it. The wines of today are not made in the same fashion as they were 2,000 years ago. We have far better equipment and a far better product. Most here would not even like the taste of the wines of Israel.

 

[Moriah]

Yayin means wine. Wine is a fermented drink. The root word to yayin means boil up, to boil up grape juice is to ferment it and make wine.
That is what the Bible dictionaries say.

 

[DHK]

Yayin means wine. Wine is a fermented drink. The root word to yayin means boil up, to boil up grape juice is to ferment it and make wine.
That is what the Bible dictionaries say.

I have quoted enough material for you to show that you are wrong. Others have also done the same thing. But you refuse to believe.
Even the root word doesn't necessarily show what you think. If something is boiled up perhaps it is boiled out, as in the alcohol being boiled out. However, that really doesn't matter, as the meanings do not necessarily come from roots and etymologies. I have showed that to you already.
Do you worship the sun? You haven't answered that yet.
Yet, sun, is the root of Sunday, and if we are going by etymologies or roots, then you should be worshiping the sun, instead of referring to Sunday as the first day of the week. But you don't. You are inconsistent.

The wine of that time had about 1% alcohol. That is hardly an alcoholic beverage. It would still be considered unfermented for all intents and purposes. Children would still be able to drink it, unlike the wines and liquors of today.

That is not to say they didn't have wines that were much more fermented that people did get drunk on. Of course there were.
The word had both meanings.

But a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

IOW, no matter how much evidence I lay in front of you, you will not believe. Your mind is made up.

 

[webdog]

All wine ferments to about 14% naturally. The 1% is quite funny :laugh:

 

[Moriah]

I have quoted enough material for you to show that you are wrong. Others have also done the same thing. But you refuse to believe.

I have quoted you enough material to show you the truth. Others have also done so, but you reject the truth and fight against it.
Wine is a fermented drink in every language.

Even the root word doesn't necessarily show what you think. If something is boiled up perhaps it is boiled out, as in the alcohol being boiled out.

The root word does show yayin means fermented. I gave you meaning from a dictionary here it is again:
Wine The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning "to boil up," "to be in a ferment." http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd382.htm
Can you see that? Are you blind? Do you just hate the truth?

However, that really doesn't matter, as the meanings do not necessarily come from roots and etymologies. I have showed that to you already.
Do you worship the sun? You haven't answered that yet.

You have only shown ignorance and refusal for the truth. Why in the world would you think asking me if I worship the sun is any kind of logical argument?

Yet, sun, is the root of Sunday, and if we are going by etymologies or roots, then you should be worshiping the sun, instead of referring to Sunday as the first day of the week. But you don't. You are inconsistent.

http://spanish.about.com/od/historyofspanish/a/names_of_days.htm
The etymology (word history) of most of the days of the week are linked to Roman mythology. The Romans saw a connection between their gods and the changing face of the nighttime sky, so it became natural to use their gods' names for the planets — the ones they were able to track in the sky were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Those five planets plus the moon and sun made seven major astronomical bodies, so when the seven-day week was imported from Mesopotamia early in the fourth century it was a natural to use those astronomical names for the days of the week.
Eventually, the first day of the week was named after the sun, followed by the moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. The names of the week were adopted with little change throughout most of the Roman Empire and even beyond. In only a few cases were changes made.
DHK,
Now that you know more about how the days of the week came about, what does worshiping have to do with anything? Can you drink the days of the week? Can you eat them? We are discussing the word wine, yayin. The root word means to boil up, to ferment. You surely can drink fermented juice. I hope you do not worship it.

The wine of that time had about 1% alcohol. That is hardly an alcoholic beverage. It would still be considered unfermented for all intents and purposes. Children would still be able to drink it, unlike the wines and liquors of today.

Show from the scriptures that wine had 1 percent alcohol. Stop making up stuff to support your falseness.

That is not to say they didn't have wines that were much more fermented that people did get drunk on. Of course there were.
The word had both meanings.

Wine is a fermented drink. Wine has one meaning. I have proven that to you from dictionaries of English, Hebrew, and Greek.

 

[DHK]

All wine ferments to about 14% naturally. The 1% is quite funny :laugh:

I did not say that all the "wine" was like that. Read carefully before castigating your sarcasm. Obviously Noah, Lot, etc. drank fermented wine that had much more than 1% alcohol. The section quoted was "for private use," as in every day use at the dining table. It was customary to dilute their wines with water for every day use, not to give the children potent alcoholic beverages. Your conclusion is, may I use the word "asinine."

 

[Moriah]

I did not say that all the "wine" was like that. Read carefully before castigating your sarcasm. Obviously Noah, Lot, etc. drank fermented wine that had much more than 1% alcohol. The section quoted was "for private use," as in every day use at the dining table. It was customary to dilute their wines with water for every day use, not to give the children potent alcoholic beverages. Your conclusion is, may I use the word "asinine."

You keep saying "fermented wine." Lol

Do you really think mixing the wine with water takes away the fermentation?

Nowadays mixing wine with water is called improving the flavor, or it is called a wine spritzer.

I could not find where it is called removing the fermentation.

 

[DHK]

Consider the events of the Passover:

[FONT=&quot]A. He washed the feet of the disciples (John 13:2-20). Details:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. a benediction.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. cup of wine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. the hands of the company washed, the master of the feast passing the basin while reciting a prayer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. bitter herbs dipped in sauce and eaten.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. the lamb brought in with other portions of the meal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. a benediction and second eating of bitter herbs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. a second cup of wine with questions and answers as to the origin of the feast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. singing of the first part of the Hallel (Psa. 113, 114).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]9. the master of the feast washes his hands and makes a sop by wrapping a bit of lamb with unleavened bread in bitter herbs and dipping it in the sauce, for each one present in turn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. each eats as much as he likes, finishing with a piece of lamb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. a third cup of wine after washing hands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. singing of the second part of the Hallel (Psa.115-118).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. a fourth cup of wine.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14. Jesus substituted in the place of the washing of hands, the symbolic act of the foot- washing, in order to teach a special lesson.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. Peter refused, but the Lord replied, If I wash you not, you have no part with me. Then, Peter answered, Lord wash not only my feet but my hands and head also. Christ answered, He who has bathed needs only to have his feet washed; he is clean all over.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b. The first condition to discipleship is self-surrender[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c. One who has been purged in the laver of regeneration only needs after that to wash off daily the soil of the way (sin).[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d. We are to follow Jesus' example: In washing the disciples' feet, the ideal of humility in service is the real road to true greatness and pre-eminence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B. He gave the sop to Judas who then departed (John 13:26).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. The bitter herbs were a symbol of the bitterness of bondage in Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. By Oriental custom it was a special honor for the host to offer anyone a tid-bit and indicate that he was considered a favoured guest. Jesus showed kindness to Judas to the end, even in the hour of betrayal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. At that same moment Satan took complete possession of Judas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Judas departs, and Jesus initiates His final discourses and warns the disciples against desertion, while they protest their loyalty to Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
At this point the account of the Passover ends, though it may have gone longer in time. But at least four glasses of wine have been taken in a short period of time. If it was potent, it would have made them queasy, if not drunk, and not fit for discipleship and fit for the events to come.

Secondly, if this is the normal pattern for the Passover, no child would ever be able to sustain four drinks of an alcoholic beverage.

 

[DHK]

You keep saying "fermented wine." Lol

Do you really think mixing the wine with water takes away the fermentation?

Nowadays mixing wine with water is called improving the flavor, or it is called a wine spritzer.

I could not find where it is called removing the fermentation.

It was so diluted that the fermentation (alcoholic content) was negligible.

However the greater consensus among scholars is that it was not fermented at all. Would Christ give fermented wine at a marriage feast to recovering alcoholics, or to those that are drunk in the first place? Would he go against his own word? That would be sin!

 

[Moriah]

Consider the events of the Passover:

[FONT=&quot]A. He washed the feet of the disciples (John 13:2-20). Details:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. a benediction.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. cup of wine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. the hands of the company washed, the master of the feast passing the basin while reciting a prayer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. bitter herbs dipped in sauce and eaten.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. the lamb brought in with other portions of the meal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. a benediction and second eating of bitter herbs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. a second cup of wine with questions and answers as to the origin of the feast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. singing of the first part of the Hallel (Psa. 113, 114).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]9. the master of the feast washes his hands and makes a sop by wrapping a bit of lamb with unleavened bread in bitter herbs and dipping it in the sauce, for each one present in turn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. each eats as much as he likes, finishing with a piece of lamb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. a third cup of wine after washing hands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. singing of the second part of the Hallel (Psa.115-118).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. a fourth cup of wine.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14. Jesus substituted in the place of the washing of hands, the symbolic act of the foot- washing, in order to teach a special lesson.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. Peter refused, but the Lord replied, If I wash you not, you have no part with me. Then, Peter answered, Lord wash not only my feet but my hands and head also. Christ answered, He who has bathed needs only to have his feet washed; he is clean all over.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b. The first condition to discipleship is self-surrender[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c. One who has been purged in the laver of regeneration only needs after that to wash off daily the soil of the way (sin).[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d. We are to follow Jesus' example: In washing the disciples' feet, the ideal of humility in service is the real road to true greatness and pre-eminence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B. He gave the sop to Judas who then departed (John 13:26).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. The bitter herbs were a symbol of the bitterness of bondage in Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. By Oriental custom it was a special honor for the host to offer anyone a tid-bit and indicate that he was considered a favoured guest. Jesus showed kindness to Judas to the end, even in the hour of betrayal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. At that same moment Satan took complete possession of Judas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Judas departs, and Jesus initiates His final discourses and warns the disciples against desertion, while they protest their loyalty to Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
At this point the account of the Passover ends, though it may have gone longer in time. But at least four glasses of wine have been taken in a short period of time. If it was potent, it would have made them queasy, if not drunk, and not fit for discipleship and fit for the events to come.

Secondly, if this is the normal pattern for the Passover, no child would ever be able to sustain four drinks of an alcoholic beverage.

After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divided it among you. Luke 22:17

They drank from the same cup; they divided it amongst each other.

 

[Moriah]

It was so diluted that the fermentation (alcoholic content) was negligible.

However the greater consensus among scholars is that it was not fermented at all. Would Christ give fermented wine at a marriage feast to recovering alcoholics, or to those that are drunk in the first place? Would he go against his own word? That would be sin!

Do you see why this is no mere discussion, when you say something as wrong as saying Jesus is a sinner.
Is there no fear of God in you? No one should be so confident to speak such a way as you just have.