If you knew me at all, you would never say such a thing about me. If you were able to make righteous accusations, you would not have said this about me.
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Fermented and Unfermented Wine
- Thread starter steaver
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If you knew me at all, you would never say such a thing about me. If you were able to make righteous accusations, you would not have said this about me.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The Word of God tells the reader not to look upon the wine when it is fermented.
God's Word also reveals that wine is found in the clusters... which proves that the juice of the grape was considered wine in Bible times. This is in agreement with Dictionaries of the 18th Century AD which defined wine as the juice of grapes fermented or unfermented.
God's Word also reveals that wine is found in the clusters... which proves that the juice of the grape was considered wine in Bible times. This is in agreement with Dictionaries of the 18th Century AD which defined wine as the juice of grapes fermented or unfermented.
You keep saying this, but out of ignorance. The Strong's on the internet is an abbreviated lexicon and doesn't go into any detail. There are many other resource materials available.
Here is what Faucett's Bible Dictionary says:
It has much more to say. I only quoted a small portion.
It is reasonable and logical to note that you do not rightly divide those scriptures.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Sir William Gull, testifying before the House of Lords:
Dr RW Richardson, on page 20 of "Moderate Drinking: For and Against from Scientific Points of View, stated:
Dr RW Richardson, on page 20 of "Moderate Drinking: For and Against from Scientific Points of View, stated:
We deteriorate a little everyday just by living with or without a glass of wine, beer, or strong drink.
Fred's Wife
Member
All I'm doing is judging what I've seen you and others post time and time again.
If what you say is true...that all instances of the word "wine" in the Bible mean fermented wine, then the "wine" in both of the following verses is the same "wine"?
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
According to what you have been and continue to say, the "wine" which God calls a "mocker, raging, and a deceiver" is the very same "wine" in which God says there is a "blessing" is the same wine. Rightly dividing also includes context. Why would God warn us about "wine" in one verse and in another verse say that there is a blessing in that same wine, which is totally contrary? Dos God contradict Himself, or are there two different meanings for the word wine---unfermented "fruit of the vine"/juice of the grape and fermented/alcoholic). Would you please explain that for us.
You have then proved that you cannot make righteous judgments.
The translation I use says, “As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, ‘Don’t destroy it, there is yet some good in it.’
If I only had the KJV, I would understand this scripture to mean that when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes among bad grapes, then there can still be wine made from it, and that is a blessing. Juice in a cluster is wine to be made, and that is a blessing.
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Wine is a mocker to those who are led astray by it. Strong drink is raging to those who are led astray by it.
How can you think you are explaining the scriptures correctly? You tell me how wine is a mocker if you do not get drunk on it!
Since you do not understand, it does not give you the right to try to change the meaning of wine.
God contradicting Himself is not an option! You should be more respectful than to even suggest such a thing. There are not two meanings for the word wine. There are two kinds of people concerning wine. There are those who drink it to get drunk, and those who do not drink it to get drunk.
Of course it does. Yayin can be either fermented or unfermented. This refutes your argument that yayin always means fermented wine.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
"As with juice..."
So your translation defines tiyrowsh as "juice".
The Geneva Bible (1587) defines it as wine.
Isaiah 65:8 says the new wine is in the cluster, not can be made after juice is extracted.
Proverbs 20:1 does not say it is a mocker to those who are led astray. It says wine is a mocker.
Wine is a mocker whether one drinks it or not.. For those who drink it, it has already deceived them into believing it is safe to drink.
It is not Leslie who is wrong, it is you.
So your translation defines tiyrowsh as "juice".
The Geneva Bible (1587) defines it as wine.
Isaiah 65:8 says the new wine is in the cluster, not can be made after juice is extracted.
Proverbs 20:1 does not say it is a mocker to those who are led astray. It says wine is a mocker.
Wine is a mocker whether one drinks it or not.. For those who drink it, it has already deceived them into believing it is safe to drink.
It is not Leslie who is wrong, it is you.
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What did you do, did you find someone to give a definition for your itching ears?
Yayin means "wine." (1) This is the usual Hebrew word for fermented grape.
In Hebrew yayin means wine, a fermented drink, just like in English.
I gave the explanation from the KJV.
You do not have understanding.
Maybe you are an alcoholic, or lived with one before, you may hate alcohol, but that is not reason to try to distort the truth.
I want you to explain how wine is a mocker if you do not get drunk on it. I will be waiting for your explanation.
Just because you say so does not make it so.
Fred's Wife
Member
I did make a righteous judgment...but you refuse to accept the fact that you may be wrong.
The word "wine" in Isaiah 65:8 is TIROSH which means "wine", not juice. It says the "wine is IN the cluster", not juice in the cluster.
There are NO conditions in Proverbs 20:1! The verse does not say "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging to those who are led astray." The verse is clear and straightfoward..."Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and WHOSOEVER IS DECEIVED THEREBY IS NOT WISE". It is the wine and strong drink which deceives....nothing is said about those who might be led astray by it. You added that part. It also says "whosoever is deceived thereby" (not led astray) is not wise.
That's the deception. There is no need to "get drunk" to be deceived. After you're drunk, you have already been deceived. When you see a warning sign that says "Danger! Warning! Thin Ice", do you walk out on it to test it and see if the warning is true? That's what Proverbs 20:1 is...a WARNING!
I understand just fine. It is you and others who change the meaning of the word "wine" to make it "fit" into what you believe it should mean.
I never made God to contradict Himself an option...that is what you have done by "forcing" the meaning of the word "wine" to be fermented in all cases..irregardless of context. You seem to have "tunnel vision" when it comes to defending your own interpretation of the word "wine". Yes, there are two types of people concerning wine. There are those who believe that the Bible teaches total abstinence from alcoholic beverages and those who want to justify their actions by "forcing" their own interpretation of wine to fit their lifestyle.
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You did not make a righteous judgment about me. I am defending the truth, not trying to amaze you with how far I will go to justify drinking of beverage alcohol, as you said.
I explained the scripture to you with the word wine.
You did NOT explain it. Explain how a person who does not get drunk was deceived. Explain how wine is a mocker to someone who did not get drunk.
Do not accuse me of what you said and did. Did you earlier in this thread say Jesus would be a sinner if he drank wine?
Do you have no fear?
Wine means a fermented drink in Hebrew and in English.
Sounds to me like you described one person, yourself.
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Steadfast Fred
Active Member
You said yayin is usually fermented grape juice. In our modern world, you would be correct.
But the Bible was not written yesterday, much as you would like it to have ben.
It was written nearly 2000 years ago. And the Bible tells us
Proverbs 23:31 (KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Notice it says not to look upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. The operative words you need to focus on are the words "when it". When what? When the wine.. It is speaking of the subject, which is the wine. Don't look upon it when...
When indicates a specific period of time. When what? When it is fermented. Don't look upon it when it is fermented.
Remember those two words when it? They reveal something else about the wine. They reveal that that liquid is called wine at other stages beside when it is fermented. And Isaiah 65:8 reveals that the cluster has wine within it. The unfermented juice of the grape was called wine more than 2000 years ago.
Yayin in the Bible was either fermented or non fermented. Context reveals which.
The wine that Solomon was told to drink abundantly of is not the same wine that Solomon said one is not to look upon. That which was approved of did not cause man to reel. It was the pure blood of the grape. It was not the toxin you are trying to sell on this board.
But the Bible was not written yesterday, much as you would like it to have ben.
It was written nearly 2000 years ago. And the Bible tells us
Proverbs 23:31 (KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Notice it says not to look upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. The operative words you need to focus on are the words "when it". When what? When the wine.. It is speaking of the subject, which is the wine. Don't look upon it when...
When indicates a specific period of time. When what? When it is fermented. Don't look upon it when it is fermented.
Remember those two words when it? They reveal something else about the wine. They reveal that that liquid is called wine at other stages beside when it is fermented. And Isaiah 65:8 reveals that the cluster has wine within it. The unfermented juice of the grape was called wine more than 2000 years ago.
Yayin in the Bible was either fermented or non fermented. Context reveals which.
The wine that Solomon was told to drink abundantly of is not the same wine that Solomon said one is not to look upon. That which was approved of did not cause man to reel. It was the pure blood of the grape. It was not the toxin you are trying to sell on this board.