Fermented and Unfermented Wine

[billwald]

Evidence the ancient Jews cultured their own yeast?

 

[Chad Whiteley]

Evidence the ancient Jews cultured their own yeast?

What do you mean?

Yeast grow naturally on the hulls of the grape. No culturing is necessary to produce wine.

 

[billwald]

That's the point! When the grapes are juiced the yeast is already present so unless the juice is sterilized it will automatically turn into wine or vinegar. Birds can get drunk on unprocessed grapes. Grapes are not ripe in the month before Passover. Any liquid grape product must be wine or vinegar during Passover.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

From what I read, the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines. Thus killing the yeast before it could ferment.

 

[kyredneck]

Evidence the ancient Jews cultured their own yeast?

:thumbs: It's called 'selective breeding' Man has been doing it since being given dominion over the living things on earth.

.....Yeast grow naturally on the hulls of the grape. No culturing is necessary to produce wine.

From what I read, the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines. Thus killing the yeast before it could ferment.

It's a 'crap shoot', a 'roll of the dice', to leave the fermentation process up to whatever wild natural yeasts are present on the skin of the grapes or those native to the locale whose spores are floating around in the atmosphere. You don't know what you're going to end up with, wine or vinegar, nor the quality of it. Thus the wisdom in killing 'the natives' through a pasteurization process and then inserting a selected strain of yeast that has proven to provide the desired product.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

It's a 'crap shoot', a 'roll of the dice', to leave the fermentation process up to whatever wild natural yeasts are present on the skin of the grapes or those native to the locale whose spores are floating around in the atmosphere. You don't know what you're going to end up with, wine or vinegar, nor the quality of it. Thus the wisdom in killing 'the natives' through a pasteurization process and then inserting a selected strain of yeast that has proven to provide the desired product.

Crap shoot or not, it is how wines were made before they invented pastuerization in the middle of the 19th century. It is still how many of the finest wines are made, wines from producers such as Domaine des Terres Dorées and Clos de la Roilette. No pastuerization and no sulfites, just natural fermentation. New York has many wineries that produce high quality naturally fermented wine. California is now jumping into the game, led by vineyards usch as Coturri Vineyards.

From what I read, the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines. Thus killing the yeast before it could ferment.

Concentrated grape juice has its own Hebrew word - it was not considered wine. The word debash and not yayin is used. It is often translated "honey." All of the Hebrew words translated wine have inebriating qualities ascribed to them.

The Bible is actually quite plain when it comes to grape harvesting. The Jewish people made wine in their area for hundreds of years. God was apparently pleased that they took such pride in their work.

 

[kyredneck]

Crap shoot or not, it is how wines were made before they invented pastuerization in the middle of the 19th century. It is still how many of the finest wines are made, wines from producers such as Domaine des Terres Dorées and Clos de la Roilette......

"...Yeast is normally already present on grape skins. Fermentation can be done with this endogenous "wild yeast," but this procedure gives unpredictable results, which depend upon the exact types of yeast species present. For this reason, a pure yeast culture is usually added to the must; this yeast quickly dominates the fermentation. The wild yeasts are repressed, which ensures a reliable and predictable fermentation"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast

There are locales around the globe where the endogenous "wild yeast" are desirable for good wine and the process is NOT so much a crap shoot, but I dare say this is not true in most places.

 

[kyredneck]

....before they invented pastuerization in the middle of the 19th century.....

Surely you don't believe there was something stupid about those people back then. You think they didn't know the cleansing effect of fire, or sterilization through boiling (I used the term 'pasteurization' in a generic sense)? You think those Jews of that day weren't able to discern a consistently superior wine from a certain region or maker and then successfully duplicate it?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Concentrated grape juice has its own Hebrew word - it was not considered wine. The word debash and not yayin is used. It is often translated "honey." All of the Hebrew words translated wine have inebriating qualities ascribed to them.

Judges 14:9 (KJV) And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey (debash) out of the carcase of the lion.

There ya have it folks, we now know that grape juice comes from dead animals and not from the grape.

Amazing. Someone better call up their local agriculturist and set them straight.

 

[DHK]

What do you mean?

Yeast grow naturally on the hulls of the grape. No culturing is necessary to produce wine.

Not that simple. Ancient Greeks (and others) had to learn how to make wine. A "glass" of grape juice would go bad, turn into a bad form of vinegar if left to itself. It would not turn naturally into wine. They had to learn how to "catch" it before the fermentation actually started. Otherwise it would turn into vinegar. There was a process involved. There was learning involved. It just wasn't leave the grape juice and let the fermentation take its natural course and presto you have wine. No way! That is naive!

 

[DHK]

Judges 14:9 (KJV) And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey (debash) out of the carcase of the lion.

There ya have it folks, we now know that grape juice comes from dead animals and not from the grape.

Amazing. Someone better call up their local agriculturist and set them straight.

Why not try that today. It is quite amazing that supernatural strength comes without any physical training also.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

Not that simple. Ancient Greeks (and others) had to learn how to make wine. A "glass" of grape juice would go bad, turn into a bad form of vinegar if left to itself. It would not turn naturally into wine. They had to learn how to "catch" it before the fermentation actually started. Otherwise it would turn into vinegar. There was a process involved. There was learning involved. It just wasn't leave the grape juice and let the fermentation take its natural course and presto you have wine. No way! That is naive!

Can you show me the scripture where Noah "learned" how to make wine?

By the way, I have made wine myself and it is quite a natural process. Fermentation sets on as soon as the grapes are crushed. Vinegar is an aerobic process and wine is anaerobic. When you crush the grapes, the skins graviate to the top of the mixture, sealing the juice for fermentation. It is about as natural as natural can be. That is why Noah happened upon the wine without much learning needed.

 

[kyredneck]

From what I read, the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines. Thus killing the yeast before it could ferment.

Fred, can you cite this? I doubt very seriously if they had the means to do this with ALL the tons and tons of juice (in fact I'd make a wager they did not), but, I am curious for what purpose that they would boil the wine (or juice).

IF it was fermented wine that they boiled then the alcohol had just been effectively removed from it. If they were able to distill the vapors from that then they had just made BRANDY (I've often wondered just what the 'strong drink' of Mose's writings was; it's hard for me to imagine they had distilled spirits back then though). But then again, in no way do I believe those people were lacking in IQ at all.

It's untold the amount of knowledge that was lost during the 'dark ages' alone, after Christ.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

Judges 14:9 (KJV) And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey (debash) out of the carcase of the lion.

There ya have it folks, we now know that grape juice comes from dead animals and not from the grape.

Amazing. Someone better call up their local agriculturist and set them straight.

I am so trying not to be condescending. There is a honey of bees and a honey of grapes. The word for both is debash and the context determines the origin of the debash. This is the same in English as we have a grape honey and a bee honey.

I think you need to read all of the scriptures reflecting debash and their meaning before you make ridiculous statements like the one above.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Fred, can you cite this? I doubt very seriously if they had the means to do this with ALL the tons and tons of juice (in fact I'd make a wager they did not), but, I am curious for what purpose that they would boil the wine (or juice).

IF it was fermented wine that they boiled then the alcohol had just been effectively removed from it. If they were able to distill the vapors from that then they had just made BRANDY (I've often wondered just what the 'strong drink' of Mose's writings was; it's hard for me to imagine they had distilled spirits back then though). But then again, in no way do I believe those people were lacking in IQ at all.

It's untold the amount of knowledge that was lost during the 'dark ages' alone, after Christ.

There is a book that was written in 1828, "Travels in Europe", where it is mentioned that the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I am so trying not to be condescending. There is a honey of bees and a honey of grapes. The word for both is debash and the context determines the origin of the debash. This is the same in English as we have a grape honey and a bee honey.

I think you need to read all of the scriptures reflecting debash and their meaning before you make ridiculous statements like the one above.

Just searched through my entire Bible and find no mention of a honey of grapes.

Perhaps you can point me to the verse where honey meant grape juice?

I love these electronic Bibles.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

Just searched through my entire Bible and find no mention of a honey of grapes.

I love these electronic Bibles.

The word "honey" itself can refer to both. Go pick up your Strong's or do a google search... or whatever. This is just plain common knowledge of the Hebrew culture. Debash is a sweet syrupy product, from grapes, dates, fig, bees, or mulberry. In Turkish, the general word is Pekmez, but the word dibis is used to refer to the syrup from dates even today.

Where does the word dibis come from - well, it has the same ancient roots as debash.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

From a Bible dictionary:

Honey.

[N] [T] [E]
The Hebrew debash in the first place applied to the product of the bee, to which exclusively we give the name of honey. All travellers agree in describing Palestine as a land "flowing with milk and honey," ( Exodus 3:8 ) bees being abundant even in the remote parts of the wilderness, where they deposit their honey in the crevices of rocks or in hollow trees. In some parts of northern Arabia the hills are so well stocked with bees that no sooner are hives placed than they are occupied. In the second place the term debash applies to a decoction of the juice of the grape, which is still called dibs , and which forms an article of commerce in the East, it was this, and not ordinary bee-honey, which Jacob sent to Joseph, ( Genesis 43:11 ) and which the Tyrians purchased from Palestine. ( Ezekiel 27:17 ) A third kind has been described by some writers as a "vegetable" honey, by which is meant the exudations of certain trees and shrubs, such as the Tamarix mannifera , found in the peninsula of Sinai, or the stunted oaks of Luristan and Mesopotamia . The honey which Jonathan ate in the wood, ( 1 Samuel 14:25 ) and the "wild honey" which supported John the Baptist, ( Matthew 3:42 ) have been referred to this species. But it was probably the honey of wild bees.

You simply can not say that they boiled down their wine, unless you acknowledge that the word debash can refer to it. Otherwise, show me a scripture that suggests that anyone boiled down their wine.

It is the futility of futilities to discuss the subject most of the time with people who ignore the plain teaching of the scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

There is a book that was written in 1828, "Travels in Europe", where it is mentioned that the Jews were in the habit of boiling their wines.

"Mevushal kosher wine, as mentioned, is wine juice that in Temple times was boiled or cooked to distinguish wine used by Jewish people from wine that was used by people of other faiths or pagans who used non-boiled or non-cooked wine for religious rituals. Although non-boiled or non-cooked wine - whether used or potentially used for pagan worship - as well as even those non-boiled or non-cooked wines that were not designated for pagan worship - were banned for use by Jewish people by the Talmudic Sages, wine which was boiled or cooked rendered the wine unfit for pagan rituals, and so this type of wine was permitted for use by Jewish people by the Talmudic Sages. Nowadays, however, Mevushal wine is wine juice that may still be cooked or boiled but most often is now flash pasteurized to a temperature that Jewish law considers appropriate for the wine juice to be called cooked or boiled; for instance, a temperature of 203 degrees Fahrenheit (95 degrees Celsius) for a few seconds to better preserve the quality and structure of the wine as it was in its non-Mevushal state, whereupon the flash pasteurization process is followed by rapid cooling of the wine. The wine juice of Mevushal kosher wines can also be cooked or boiled by being heated to a temperature of either 175 degrees Fahrenheit (79.44 degrees Celsius) or 185 degrees Fahrenheit (85 degrees Celsius) - depending on the authoritative rabbinical opinion one follows - for one minute, followed by a rapid cooling of the wine. Mevushal kosher wine - once produced - is wine that can be handled - meaning opened and served - by anyone, whether Jewish (Sabbath-observing Orthodox-Jewish male or non-Sabbath-observing Jewish male or female) or from another faith - and according to Jewish law, this type of wine will remain kosher regardless of who handles it."
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/kosher-wine/

OK, it appears the process, prior to fermentation, was to differentiate Jewish RITUAL wine from that of pagans, i.e. KOSHER WINE.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

"Take a little honey" means grape juice?

For the authors of your "dictionary" that you failed to give a name for to get "grape juice" out of "take a little honey" requires a good imagination, I guess.

There is no indication in the Word of God that debash was ever used to signify grape juice.