Five Points

[Earth Wind and Fire]

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SW - as I, and the PB's here have maintained, we are not Calvinists. There are areas in which we differ, so in fairness to the Calvinists on this board,
this is NOT a general teaching among and of Calvinists.

From what I understand, they believe that while it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates the elect sinner, the elect needs to be in the presence or an environment where the gospel is being preached, in other words, preaching of the gospel is to them a God ordained means of getting the sinner saved.
The majority of PB's do not preach 'means'.

To us, it is the Holy Spirit, and Him only, who decides when, where, and how to quicken His elect child dead in sin and trespasses in time because he was born so by nature, though, after the cross, the elect is a redeemed soul because of Christ's once for all death and resurrection in time.

However, I do not want to derail this thread to another topic, even if I engage in caustic argumentation with Van as I do not want him to add thread derailment to his charges of insults and disparagement tactics to the Calvinist brethren.

I would suggest start a thread.
Though I won't be able to contribute except after 5 pm here in Cali.

Then we can get into absoluteism as well.....and I don't mean the vodka:laugh:

 

[Van]

Please don't tell me what Calvinists believe; I just want to know what you believe now.

So, you do not believe that you or I were sinners condemned before God in "Eternity Past" before our Earthly birth? Is that right?

Do I understand you correctly, that you don't believe that you or I whom have chosen to believe in Christ through faith were counted among the "elect" even before our birth?

God doesn't deal directly with you or I as an individual? God only deals with you or I corporately?

1) You asked the question and I answered it. The fact you claim you did not know what Calvinism teaches, that we were condemned or saved before the foundation of the world is difficult to believe.

2) No, I do not believe we were condemned as individuals before our conception, our creation. Certainly as descendants of Adam, we were condemned corporately with the Fall of Adam, and since God chose His Lamb before the foundation of the world, God's redemption plan formulated before the foundation of the world included the Fall. You do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a plan that includes folks needing redemption.

3) We were not "sinners" before we were created.

4) Yes, we were not chosen for salvation as individuals before our lifetime. Romans 8:33 precludes that possibility. We lived without mercy before we obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10 We were not a people before we became a people.

5) God deals with us individually during our lifetime. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches He chose us for salvation through faith in the truth. He sets us apart individually when He puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[Van]

I see no need to respond to the absurdities spewed forth by the Calvinist denying (1) everyone was bought, Jesus paid the ransom for all; (2) we were chosen through faith in the truth; and (3) John 6:29 is translated by Dr. Wallace (in the NET) as the deed required by God.

6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”

 

[pinoybaptist]

I see no need to respond to the absurdities spewed forth by the Calvinist denying (1) everyone was bought, Jesus paid the ransom for all; (2) we were chosen through faith in the truth; and (3) John 6:29 is translated by Dr. Wallace (in the NET) as the deed required by God.

fine by us, or by me.
personally, I've been feeling foolish responding to your musings as well.
might as well talk to the old folks at the alzheimer's clinic back in virginia.
what they say makes more sense.
lol.
bye.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, Calvinism denies scripture after scripture. John 6:29 does not say (in context) God requires us to put our trust in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say God chose for salvation through faith in the truth. Matthew 23:13 does not say mean were "entering heaven." Bottom line, any scripture, and there are tons of them, that teach Calvinism is mistaken doctrine simple do not mean what they say according the Calvinist defenders of the mistaken doctrine.

 

[Van]

Rebuttal

Not every one who is saved eternally will come to faith in Christ in this time world, because not every one who is redeemed and bought with the blood will ever hear a preacher, or come under tutelage of gospel instructors.

PB, is this a general Calvinist teaching? I am only asking because if I am understanding this right, then it seems to completely negate the need for missions. I'd like some more clarification on this. Might even have to start a new thread on it.

No, it is not taught by Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that God will arrange the circumstances for us to be enabled by Irresistible Grace, such at we come irresistibly to faith willingly.

It is the same line of thinking of those in the past who believed that the water baptism of "elect" babies resulted in salvation or assured salvation.

And yes, also in the past, some Calvinists did not see a need for us to send missionaries to China, because God would mysteriously save all His elect.

 

[pinoybaptist]

back to talking to yourself, eh, van ?
just holler "help" if you can't figure out where you are.
:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Calvinists must talk about their opponents, rather than address the topic because Calvinism is unbiblical, lacking actual support.

Matthew 23:13 says men were entering heaven, but Calvinist posters say they were not going in. All these translations somehow missed the message, NASB, HCSB, NKJV, KJV, YLT, and on and on.

"T" mistaken, see Matthew 23:13
"U" mistaken, see 2 Thessalonians 2:13
"L" mistaken, see 1 John 2:2.
"I" mistaken, see Matthew 23:13.

Not only does faith come before regeneration, faith comes before individual election. (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the ELECT doctrine is consistent with all scripture. Matthew 23:13 tells us of unregenerate men, natural fallen men, who were entering heaven. Either Christ was mistaken or Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine. As for me, I will stick with Christ.

You totally misinterpret that passage!

NO unregenerate sinner can even see their need for salvation, much less try to enetr it in freely of their own "free will!"

 

[Van]

As I said, Calvinists simply deny Matthew 23:13 says what it says, which can be read by anyone, and then charge me with "totally" misinterpreting that passage. Folks, this is all they have, denial and demonize. Men were entering heaven.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

 

[Rippon]

And yes, also in the past, some Calvinists did not see a need for us to send missionaries to China, because God would mysteriously save all His elect.

Can you please cite any Calvinist who made such a claim that you have asserted above?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Van, I'd like to leave you alone to talk to yourself but who knows something might get through the thick fog of your rabidly hateful anti-Calvinism. Perhaps you do not know that Calvinists abounded in the history of missions from the beginning.
Just that they did not go 'door knocking' and asking people to accept Jesus as their personal Savior like modern missionaries do.
Yeah, they had tracts and stuff, but for the most part they set up house and did what they could for the locals and invited them to services.
For example, if an old time missionary Calvinist were a doctor, he would go about doing what he could for the locals medically and introduce Christianity in a way that is different from how things are done today.
Did you know, for example, what the soteriology of the likes of David Livingston, William Carey, or Hudson Taylor, was ?
Try doing a little research on your "enemies".
Besides, if God wants to mysteriously save His elect, what have you got against it ?
Oh, yeah, it hurts your pride that you can have no part in the glory.
I get that.

 

[franklinmonroe]

1) You asked the question and I answered it. ...

Indeed, you did answer my question and I appreciate it. Sorry, I only meant by "please don't tell me what Calvinists believe" that I desired to keep the conversation focused on the particular questions at hand.

2) No, I do not believe we were condemned as individuals before our conception, our creation. ...

It is beyond my finite mind to imagine how God brings a soul into existence. However, I know from my experience that when I am engaged in the creative process that I must conceptualize the object of my creative activity before and as I am creating it. The created thing bears the characteristics that I conceived for it before it is actually realized in time-space. For example, if I desire my final creation to be 'round' then I have first conceived it as 'round' in my mind.

Therefore, it seems to me that God must have conceived 'of' me (with all my attributes) before he brought me into physical existence. God placed me in America, at the turn of the 21st century, as a caucasian; He also set my intellectual limit, and my spiritual destiny. How could He not have? I don't believe God created anything in some sort of directionless vacuum. And all those preceding factors would have absolute bearing on my final condition.

Setting any "inherited sin" aside momentarily, God knew that indeed I would sin and thus He knew me as a sinner from the start (that is, whatever point you may consider your beginning). Someplace between Eternity Past and my entry into the world, God knew me exactly as I am. And He loved me while I was yet a sinner. And He saved me. He put my name in His book.

Are my views very different than yours?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Van, I'd like to leave you alone to talk to yourself but who knows something might get through the thick fog of your rabidly hateful anti-Calvinism. Perhaps you do not know that Calvinists abounded in the history of missions from the beginning.
Just that they did not go 'door knocking' and asking people to accept Jesus as their personal Savior like modern missionaries do.
Yeah, they had tracts and stuff, but for the most part they set up house and did what they could for the locals and invited them to services.
For example, if an old time missionary Calvinist were a doctor, he would go about doing what he could for the locals medically and introduce Christianity in a way that is different from how things are done today.
Did you know, for example, what the soteriology of the likes of David Livingston, William Carey, or Hudson Taylor, was ?
Try doing a little research on your "enemies".
Besides, if God wants to mysteriously save His elect, what have you got against it ?
Oh, yeah, it hurts your pride that you can have no part in the glory.
I get that.

When he has to resort to that...shows you he is out of bullets.

 

[Van]

Answer

Indeed, you did answer my question and I appreciate it. Sorry, I only meant by "please don't tell me what Calvinists believe" that I desired to keep the conversation focused on the particular questions at hand.


It is beyond my finite mind to imagine how God brings a soul into existence. However, I know from my experience that when I am engaged in the creative process that I must conceptualize the object of my creative activity before and as I am creating it. The created thing bears the characteristics that I conceived for it before it is actually realized in time-space. For example, if I desire my final creation to be 'round' then I have first conceived it as 'round' in my mind.

Therefore, it seems to me that God must have conceived 'of' me (with all my attributes) before he brought me into physical existence. God placed me in America, at the turn of the 21st century, as a caucasian; He also set my intellectual limit, and my spiritual destiny. How could He not have? I don't believe God created anything in some sort of directionless vacuum. And all those preceding factors would have absolute bearing on my final condition.

Setting any "inherited sin" aside momentarily, God knew that indeed I would sin and thus He knew me as a sinner from the start (that is, whatever point you may consider your beginning). Someplace between Eternity Past and my entry into the world, God knew me exactly as I am. And He loved me while I was yet a sinner. And He saved me. He put my name in His book.

Are my views very different than yours?

Yes, I expect they are, but unless you present your views, I really do not know.

Your view did not include any scripture cited as support. I believe what the Bible says, and try to avoid plunging past the logical necessities of that revelation.

Scripture says God forms our spirit within us, and so as He forms us, we take shape conceptually. To point farther back is to simply engage in speculation.

Certainly scripture supports you with the idea that God did not create us in a directionless vacuum. He created us according to His purpose, Isaiah 43:7, to bring Him glory.

Yes, we were conceived in iniquity, in a fallen state, separated from God, and corrupted, predisposed to sin.

 

[Van]

Just Google Primitive Baptists and note they are described as (1) Calvinist Baptists, and (2) Anti-missionary. As I said, Calvinists try to change the subject to the behavior of those holding differing views. Deny and demonize seems to be their battle cry.

 

[Van]

Can you please cite any Calvinist who made such a claim that you have asserted above?

"The most famous example of this kind of hyper-Calvinism was when John Ryland heard William Carey talking about becoming a missionary to India, and told him, "Sit down, young man. When God decides to save the heathen, He will do it without your help."" Copied from an article on Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[pinoybaptist]

"The most famous example of this kind of hyper-Calvinism was when John Ryland heard William Carey talking about becoming a missionary to India, and told him, "Sit down, young man. When God decides to save the heathen, He will do it without your help."" Copied from an article on Hyper-Calvinism.

so, you are saying, Van, that had it not been for missionaries, God's sending His Son to the cruel death of the cross with the end in view of redeeming His people would have been fruitless and futile and the sinless life Christ lived in obedience to His Father, prerequisite to Messiahship, would have been meaningless and powerless ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Just Google Primitive Baptists and note they are described as (1) Calvinist Baptists, and (2) Anti-missionary. As I said, Calvinists try to change the subject to the behavior of those holding differing views. Deny and demonize seems to be their battle cry.

Your google is out of date. update it, Van.
if you google PB's hard enough, assuming you honestly want to find out more about this 'peculiar people' among God's peculiar peoples you would have found out that there have been, of late, PB's who have gone out on 'mission' fields, from India to the Philippines to parts of Ghana in Africa.

so we are not anti-missionary, per se.

we are anti-missionism which envelops the following ideas:

1. That God uses missions and missionaries to ETERNALLY save people. Christ ALREADY saved whom He wanted saved eternally and to be with Him in His Father's kingdom, that is, the Heaven which is above the heaven of Heavens. This idea stems from erroneously dividing the word, and applying the word 'save' and 'salvation' only to the eternal destination of the soul.

2, That there is to be a board or some kind of body who determines the qualifications of a minister/missionary. We find no such entity in the New Testament;

3. That these or this governing body determines who to support and how much depending, again, on certain criteria. again, PB's find this to be extra-scriptural if not UNscriptural.

4. That those who feel the call to go out 'into the fields of harvest' need to go into seminaries for degrees, or at the very least, dilly-dally until they have PLEDGES of support.
We believe if a man feels in his heart he has been called of God to go out and preach the gospel in foreign lands, then he MUST go hastily with no further delay. One of our elders, of these times, pastored a large PB congregation in the deep South.

He was a doctor by profession with more children than I could count with one hand and he sold EVERYTHING he had and used it to go where he felt called, uprooting his entire family, until his wife had medical issues that needed to be attended here after more than five years in the place where he felt called.

so, again, you do err. not knowing the Scriptures (in regards to missions) and not knowing anything first hand about Primitive Baptists.

 

[Rippon]

"The most famous example of this kind of hyper-Calvinism was when John Ryland heard William Carey talking about becoming a missionary to India, and told him, "Sit down, young man. When God decides to save the heathen, He will do it without your help."" Copied from an article on Hyper-Calvinism.

So, it had nothing to do with China.

John Ryland Jr. denied that his father said any such thing as you said he did.