Five Points

[Van]

Hi Rippon, you asked and I answered. Hyper-Calvinists were anti-mission as were Primitive Baptists. This truth cannot be diminished by denial or evasion. Being anti-missionary includes missions to China.

The issue is that all three groups, Mainline Calvinists, PB's and Hypers deal with the logical necessities of the 5 points differently, which is the conclusion that God via Irresistible grace will bring each and every elect person to Christ, regardless of what men might do or not do.

 

[Rippon]

Hi Rippon, you asked and I answered. Hyper-Calvinists were anti-mission as were Primitive Baptists. This truth cannot be diminished by denial or evasion. Being anti-missionary includes missions to China.

You had specifically said China. You also had said "some Calvinists." You brought up a long disputed "quote" to prove a broad-based claim.

 

[Van]

You had specifically said China. You also had said "some Calvinists." You brought up a long disputed "quote" to prove a broad-based claim.

To repeat, being "antimissionary" includes China.

You asked to name one person and I did. Now you want to dispute the quote. Me thinks you protest too much. I named two groups, Hyper Calvinists and PB's.

 

[Rippon]

To repeat, being "antimissionary" includes China.

But again,you had specifically said China.

You asked to name one person and I did. Now you want to dispute the quote. Me thinks you protest too much.

I have disputed the quote for years. Just do a search on the BB. It's not a recent thing with me.

I named two groups, Hyper Calvinists and PB's.

Do you think that hyper-Calvinists are Calvinists?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hi Rippon, you asked and I answered. Hyper-Calvinists were anti-mission as were Primitive Baptists. This truth cannot be diminished by denial or evasion. Being anti-missionary includes missions to China.

The issue is that all three groups, Mainline Calvinists, PB's and Hypers deal with the logical necessities of the 5 points differently, which is the conclusion that God via Irresistible grace will bring each and every elect person to Christ, regardless of what men might do or not do.

Truth is even if God Himself tells you He doesn't need any preacher, nor use any means, other than His own, to redeem His people, you're still gon' insist on your view.
that's just how you are.
And THAT, Van, is what Total Depravity is all about.

 

[preacher4truth]

Truth is even if God Himself tells you He doesn't need any preacher, nor use any means, other than His own, to redeem His people, you're still gon' insist on your view.
that's just how you are.
And THAT, Van, is what Total Depravity is all about.

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21

 

[agedman]

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21

What exactly is the "folly of what we preach?"

Is it the missionary or the message?

More particular what is the "folly?"

Is it the preaching of the Cross of Christ or some other matter?

 

[preacher4truth]

What exactly is the "folly of what we preach?"

Is it the missionary or the message?

More particular what is the "folly?"

Is it the preaching of the Cross of Christ or some other matter?

Most likely reflective of those who oppose the message and call the preaching of the cross foolishness. Only the sheep love the wisdom of His method, yet the world hates this. But this is God's ordained method of saving His people.

 

[BobRyan]

2 cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" --

i.e. the death of hyper calvinism in all its forms.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1

hyper calvinism does not survive John 1 either.

By contrast - free will is established by them. Hyper Calvinism survives only by "inference" in the extreme.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Most likely reflective of those who oppose the message and call the preaching of the cross foolishness. Only the sheep love the wisdom of His method, yet the world hates this. But this is God's ordained method of saving His people.

preaching is God's ordained method for gospel salvation, in this time world, of many among the multitudes His Son's blood redeemed and atoned for and brought eternal salvation to.

The ETERNAL salvation of ALL His people from the dawn of time, to the end of time, found not only in the Middle East but in every geographical point of the compass and in every chronological point of time, was obtained by ONE act, ONCE FOR ALL, by ONE Redeemer and only ONE, this act was not assigned to any man, but to ONE GOD MAN, Jesus Christ.

Thus the Bible states in Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld , and, lo , a great multitude, which no man could number , of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

the key verse being "no man could number". man can count one gross (144 or 12 x 12) but only God can count what man cannot count, just as He can count the number of stars in heaven and call them by name. This multitude are they whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world (go apopleptic all you want, Van, and go run to your Greek Translator, Mr. Wallace, what is written is what is written).

God needed no human preacher for their coming to Heaven. But God does use human preachers for the EDUCATION of many of them, here on earth.

 

[pinoybaptist]

2 cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" --

i.e. the death of hyper calvinism in all its forms.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1

hyper calvinism does not survive John 1 either.

By contrast - free will is established by them. Hyper Calvinism survives only by "inference" in the extreme.

how should somebody whose church teaches observance of laws IN ADDITION to grace claim any credentials to ridiculing the beliefs of many who have found comfort in the Scriptures they believed in through the centuries?

not any more than one who claims Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can ridicule the beliefs of one who claims God, called Allah, appeared to some cave dweller called Mohammed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Truth is even if God Himself tells you He doesn't need any preacher, nor use any means, other than His own, to redeem His people, you're still gon' insist on your view.
that's just how you are.
And THAT, Van, is what Total Depravity is all about.

Boy....never was a truer word spoken or word given.

 

[preacher4truth]

preaching is God's ordained method for gospel salvation, in this time world, of many among the multitudes His Son's blood redeemed and atoned for and brought eternal salvation to.

The ETERNAL salvation of ALL His people from the dawn of time, to the end of time, found not only in the Middle East but in every geographical point of the compass and in every chronological point of time, was obtained by ONE act, ONCE FOR ALL, by ONE Redeemer and only ONE, this act was not assigned to any man, but to ONE GOD MAN, Jesus Christ.

Thus the Bible states in Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld , and, lo , a great multitude, which no man could number , of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

the key verse being "no man could number". man can count one gross (144 or 12 x 12) but only God can count what man cannot count, just as He can count the number of stars in heaven and call them by name. This multitude are they whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world (go apopleptic all you want, Van, and go run to your Greek Translator, Mr. Wallace, what is written is what is written).

God needed no human preacher for their coming to Heaven. But God does use human preachers for the EDUCATION of many of them, here on earth.

Nothing but pure mysticism.

 

[Van]

Do you think that hyper-Calvinists are Calvinists?

Yes, as I said before, anyone who embraces four or five points of the TULIP is an advocate of Calvinism. Many play games, saying they are PB, or Hyper, or Reformed, but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

[Van]

I see where a Calvinist uses the old, "so you are saying..." and puts ungodly and absurd views in my mouth. Twaddle.

 

[Van]

Game set and match

Truth is even if God Himself tells you He doesn't need any preacher, nor use any means, other than His own, to redeem His people, you're still gon' insist on your view.
that's just how you are.
And THAT, Van, is what Total Depravity is all about.

Just read the above folks, God does not need to sent missionaries to China, repeat China, repeat China, according to some Calvinists, and PB is one of them.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Just read the above folks, God does not need to sent missionaries to China, repeat China, repeat China, according to some Calvinists, and PB is one of them.

YES, folks. IF and I highly doubt it, that the DEAD Calvinist who is unable to defend himself in this forum did say to William Carey what Van said was attributed to him, then I agree.

Because all this throwing back and forth of thinly veiled accusations of heresy and ignorance and whatnot, from one side to another, is borne out of the idea that man must indeed have some grand duty to perform for God in His purpose to redeem His people from the fallen race of Adam.

I agree, wholeheartedly, that if the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the Filipinos, or the Vietnamese, or the Arabs, or the Spaniards, or the Italians, or any of the other nationalities in this fallen time world were included in God's purpose of sending His Son to die on the cross, because He also has His people among them, then GOD IS ABLE AND WAS SUPREMELY ABLE TO DO IT ALL ON HIS OWN WITH NO HELP FROM ANYBODY WHO IS UNABLE TO GET TO POINT A TO POINT B WITHOUT THE USE OF HIS GOD-GIVEN FEET OR ANY MAN-MADE CONTRAPTION, OR TO GO WITHOUT SOLICITING PLEDGES FROM ANY MAN-MADE CONFERENCES OR MISSION BOARD.

And I have posed a question which Van refused to answer and conveniently ignored, and which I am posing again:

from post #38 of this thread:

so, you are saying, Van, that had it not been for missionaries, God's sending His Son to the cruel death of the cross with the end in view of redeeming His people would have been fruitless and futile and the sinless life Christ lived in obedience to His Father, prerequisite to Messiahship, would have been meaningless and powerless ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Nothing but pure mysticism.

why is it msyticism ?
then might you want to answer the same question I posed to Van ? or perhaps try and refute post #57 ?

so, you are saying, Van, that had it not been for missionaries, God's sending His Son to the cruel death of the cross with the end in view of redeeming His people would have been fruitless and futile and the sinless life Christ lived in obedience to His Father, prerequisite to Messiahship, would have been meaningless and powerless ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I see where a Calvinist uses the old, "so you are saying..." and puts ungodly and absurd views in my mouth. Twaddle.

then what other logical view could be surmised from your saying that Calvinists and PB's are anti-missions and then quoting a conversation between two Calvinists, one wanting to go to INDIA (not China) and the other opposing ?

double twaddle.

 

[Van]

so, you are saying, Van, that had it not been for missionaries, God's sending His Son to the cruel death of the cross with the end in view of redeeming His people would have been fruitless and futile and the sinless life Christ lived in obedience to His Father, prerequisite to Messiahship, would have been meaningless and powerless ?

I did answer that question, I said such a view was ungodly and twaddle. How are people saved? Is not the gospel of Christ Jesus the power of God for salvation? Yes. How do we hear if no one presents the message? We do not.

Some men have invented back-up plans for God, if people do not carry out His plan, then we have this secret plan to save souls never mentioned in the Bible. Twaddle