Five questions??

[convicted1]

I have asked these questions in TWO different threads, and no one has yet to respond to them, so I have decided to start a thread so that we can concentrate on them all by themselves(I may regret this, btw :laugh.

Will y'all be so kind to reply, and replying in a civil manner?

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

Thanks in advance for replying to this in a civil manner.

 

[12strings]

Originally Posted by convicted1
Will y'all be so kind to reply, and replying in a civil manner?

Civil!!!??? What do you think this is???

I'll give it a go, seeing as How I'm up with a sick toddler letting him watch Thomas the Train to calm him down...(I'm answering as a generally 4-pointish Calvinistic guy)

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

-If you believe that God told the truth about the consequence to their sin, then yes, you must accept that that day there was some sort of death. Putting these events together with Ephesians 2, then I would say you have accurately described the situation.

2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

I'll answer these together:

1. Obviously, if Cain and the rich man were non-beleivers, then it seems Ephesians 2 would apply to them.

2. However, It also seems clear from these and other passages that being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean "unable to do anything." Death is often used to describe separation, of a soul from God, or from the body. Obviously, when a person dies physically, their soul does not cease to exist, or enter some static state. Hell, called the eternal death, is also a place of eternal torment, so there must be some consciousness there.

3. Scripture does not say people in hell, or living non-believers are corpses, so let's keep that in mind. Some may refer to a non-believer as a spiritual corpse, or a walking corpse, in order to emphasize, and put a mental picture to the fact that Ephesians DOES say they are "dead in trespasses & sins".

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

Here I think we see the clearest that you simply miss-understand the calvinist view of Total depravity, possibly due to some calvinist themselves miss-stating it, I don't know.

1. We do not say someone who is dead in sins cannot make choices, even choices to sin, or choices to brush their teeth, or ask for water, or respond when God questions them about their sin.

2. Let's look at Ephesians 2:1-4: I'll bold the words that help us see the idea more clearly:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV)

Here we see a description of someone who, while dead in sins, walks, follows, lives, has passions, and carries out desires...

-If you put these together with the rest of scripture, It seems that an accurate description of what the Bible means by "dead in sins" is that person is separated from God and is a "slave to sin" (as Rom. 6 would put it). They follow their sinful desires, and are controlled by them.

-the calvinist view of Total depravity basically says non-believers are incapable of doing anything that will merit favor with God, because even the "good" things they do are tainted with their sinfulness, and are to God like filthy rags (I think arminians would agree with this so far...) Cals go on to say this inability includes turning and trusting in Christ without special help from the Holy Spirit.

IN CONCLUSION: I would ask this: What, in YOUR view does "dead in sins" mean? It seems from your questions that you are arguing against a view that does not exist, and also that you are saying that the whole phrase "dead in trespasses and sins" is merely the calvinist view, rather than the scriptural view... However...I suspect that your view is not that different from mine or the cal view, except for this last point about inability.

 

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by convicted1

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

The same way we can hear the prompting of the Spirit. Being spiritually dead is just a way to express our relationship. It does not men we are not able to hear or respond when God calls.


2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

The same as the last answer.

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

The same as the last two answers except it is not God doing the speaking.

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

Basically the same as the answers already given.

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.


Being spiritually dead is just a way to explain our relationship to God and does not mean we are unaware or without ability.

 

[drfuss]

12 strings writes:
"Cals go on to say this inability includes turning and trusting in Christ without special help from the Holy Spirit."

Most Arminians would also agree with the above as written. The difference is the nature of the "special help".

 

[convicted1]

-If you believe that God told the truth about the consequence to their sin, then yes, you must accept that that day there was some sort of death. Putting these events together with Ephesians 2, then I would say you have accurately described the situation.

To quote my beloved Brother, kyredneck, "zactly"!! Now, the most ardent Cal says that no one can hear without first being regenerated. They understood "loud n' clear", and God drove them out of the Garden after they spoke with each other, so apparently they were not regenerated. God placed a seal upon Cain after they spoke with each other.

I'll answer these together:

1. Obviously, if Cain and the rich man were non-beleivers, then it seems Ephesians 2 would apply to them.

No disagreement here.

2. However, It also seems clear from these and other passages that being dead in trespasses and sins does not mean "unable to do anything." Death is often used to describe separation, of a soul from God, or from the body. Obviously, when a person dies physically, their soul does not cease to exist, or enter some static state. Hell, called the eternal death, is also a place of eternal torment, so there must be some consciousness there.

Most Cals will disagree with your definition of "dead soul". They say a dead soul is like a corpse and a corpse can not do anything.

3. Scripture does not say people in hell, or living non-believers are corpses, so let's keep that in mind. Some may refer to a non-believer as a spiritual corpse, or a walking corpse, in order to emphasize, and put a mental picture to the fact that Ephesians DOES say they are "dead in trespasses & sins".

No disagreement here, either.

Here I think we see the clearest that you simply miss-understand the calvinist view of Total depravity, possibly due to some calvinist themselves miss-stating it, I don't know.

I see many differing views among the Cals, so I truly don't know what they believe.

1. We do not say someone who is dead in sins cannot make choices, even choices to sin, or choices to brush their teeth, or ask for water, or respond when God questions them about their sin.

Some say that God has predestined everything, and if so, how's that a choice?

2. Let's look at Ephesians 2:1-4: I'll bold the words that help us see the idea more clearly:



Here we see a description of someone who, while dead in sins, walks, follows, lives, has passions, and carries out desires...

-If you put these together with the rest of scripture, It seems that an accurate description of what the Bible means by "dead in sins" is that person is separated from God and is a "slave to sin" (as Rom. 6 would put it). They follow their sinful desires, and are controlled by them.

-the calvinist view of Total depravity basically says non-believers are incapable of doing anything that will merit favor with God, because even the "good" things they do are tainted with their sinfulness, and are to God like filthy rags (I think arminians would agree with this so far...) Cals go on to say this inability includes turning and trusting in Christ without special help from the Holy Spirit.

I agree that none of us would even desire to seek God without first being drawn. Some state that when this desire to seek God's mercy is there, they are regenenerated/given life, and then they can seek God. I do not think one has life until God has placed them in Christ. No one is placed in Christ, and then believes at a later date.

IN CONCLUSION: I would ask this: What, in YOUR view does "dead in sins" mean? It seems from your questions that you are arguing against a view that does not exist, and also that you are saying that the whole phrase "dead in trespasses and sins" is merely the calvinist view, rather than the scriptural view... However...I suspect that your view is not that different from mine or the cal view, except for this last point about inability.

Dead in sins is seperation from God due to our sins. Not a lifeless corpse. A corpse can not even rebel against God, and therefore can not even sin.

This is a very good post, with much meat to chew on, and be fed.

 

[convicted1]

Originally Posted by convicted1

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

The same way we can hear the prompting of the Spirit. Being spiritually dead is just a way to express our relationship. It does not men we are not able to hear or respond when God calls.


2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

The same as the last answer.

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

The same as the last two answers except it is not God doing the speaking.

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

Basically the same as the answers already given.

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.


Being spiritually dead is just a way to explain our relationship to God and does not mean we are unaware or without ability.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Good job.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[12strings]

To quote my beloved Brother, kyredneck, "zactly"!! Now, the most ardent Cal says that no one can hear without first being regenerated. They understood "loud n' clear", and God drove them out of the Garden after they spoke with each other, so apparently they were not regenerated. God placed a seal upon Cain after they spoke with each other.

-Again, I think you are misunderstanding even the most ardent Cals...I think they would all acknowledge that a non-regenerated man can "hear" God...but would say he is not able to respond SALVIFICALLY.

-Regarding Adam & Eve, We don't know exactly what happened, but many people (cals & non-cals) think Adam and Eve believed God's promise of a futre savior and were thereby saved. This could have happened before or after being driven from the garden...if before, they were regenrated then...but we do know that later their children were offering sacrifices to God.

Most Cals will disagree with your definition of "dead soul". They say a dead soul is like a corpse and a corpse can not do anything.

-again, I don't think they would disagree at all, Even with the wide range of views on this board, I haven't seen any Cals who say a dead soul can't do anything.

Some say that God has predestined everything, and if so, how's that a choice?

-different topic, no time for that here.

I agree that none of us would even desire to seek God without first being drawn. Some state that when this desire to seek God's mercy is there, they are regenenerated/given life, and then they can seek God. I do not think one has life until God has placed them in Christ. No one is placed in Christ, and then believes at a later date.

-Regeneration first vs. belief first = Long debate. I will say this: Most cals hold to a logical, not temporal order. So at the same moment one is regenerated, he believes. I would be experienced just as if I myself didn't beleive something, and then at some point my much changed...the difference is Cals thing god changed our mind, Arms think we changed it ourselves.

Dead in sins is seperation from God due to our sins. Not a lifeless corpse. A corpse can not even rebel against God, and therefore can not even sin.

-So I guess we agree here. I'm not sure where you got this idea that someone dead in sins can't sin...I don't know anyone who thinks that.

 

[mont974x4]

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

The Calvinist position is that God is the initiator. man does not seek God until God draws him. In both questions God is the initiator. God seeks the people and God starts the conversation. This is illustrative of the Calvinist theology, as is the shepherd calling His sheep and looking for His lost sheep. God starts the conversation, just as He starts the conversation with all His children. As the sinner is convicted (God's doing) he responds. Nothing in Calvinist theology denies this. Nothing in our theology claims that God cannot hear the sinner at all. It maintains God as the initiator or the conversation, and the saving the act and the finisher of the saving act.


3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

Both sinner and saint live eternally. The difference is in the place and condition. Scripture, and Calvinist theology, does not claim the sinner gets a quickened, or glorified body. Remember the account of Lazarus and the rich man is pre-cross and both Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus are all in the same condition....dead. It is not like the Roman Catholic claim that living saints can talk to dead saints. Your are comparing apples to oranges.

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst, Brother Larry), and him a corpse?

See my answer to question 3.

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

The spiritually dead can do nothing but sin. That is the curse of sin as it entered the world through Adam. That is the nature described as total depravity by us 5 pointers. Dead does not equal non-existant. Scripture does not support any form of annihilationist teaching.


The whole of Calvinist teaching rests on the grace of God. Man cannot even recognize his sinful state apart from God's grace showing it to him. Man cannot choose God. Man cannot initiate the conversation with God. Man cannot save himself. From start to finish the salvation of any man is a work of God. This is summarized by Paul in Romans 8.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (NASB)

 

[kyredneck]

....1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct?

In this type I would say the realization that they were naked before God denotes life.

How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state?

God spoke with a lot of characters in the bible such as Balaam and Nebedchenezer. You're drawing conclusions from passages that don't apply to being 'spiritually dead'. These are some wonderful types given for our edification.

Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live."

“lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”,,, get it right.

God drove them out AFTER He had searched and found them, and shed the blood of the animal and clothed them with it's skin (redeemed by the blood of Christ and imputed with His righteousness).

Yea, AFTER God had redeemed Israel from the house of bondage and brought them out Himself with a strong hand He swore in His wrath, because of their disobedience, that they would not enter into His rest.

God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

Again, you're drawing conclusions from passages that don't apply to being 'spiritually dead'.

 

[kyredneck]

...2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

Again, you're drawing conclusions from passages that don't apply to being 'spiritually dead'. These are some wonderful types given for our edification:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1528709&postcount=3

 

[Greektim]

I have asked these questions in TWO different threads, and no one has yet to respond to them, so I have decided to start a thread so that we can concentrate on them all by themselves(I may regret this, btw :laugh.

Will y'all be so kind to reply, and replying in a civil manner?




Thanks in advance for replying to this in a civil manner.

I think you are allowing your systematic theology to drive your understanding of the text too much. Spiritual death and separation from God does not mean God is incapable of speaking to humans (fallen or otherwise).

 

[mont974x4]

I think you are allowing your systematic theology to drive your understanding of the text too much. Spiritual death and separation from God does not mean God is incapable of speaking to humans (fallen or otherwise).

Right. Otherwise no one would be saved. But we know God is good. God is love. God is sovereign. :godisgood: And therefore, His chosen people hear His voice when He calls.

 

[12strings]

These are some wonderful types given for our edification.

Could you clarify what you mean by this statement?

 

[kyredneck]

Could you clarify what you mean by this statement?

Did you read the type within the account of Cain & Abel given by Pink? ( http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1528709&postcount=3 )

If so, what did you think of it?

Check this thread out:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63059

If you've never read Pink on Genesis you've missed a humongous treat for the inner man:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Gleanings_Genesis/index.htm

He was a genius and greatly gifted by God with the types, analogies, shadows, figures, similes, etc., etc. found in the scriptures, and the types given in Genesis are foundational ones that every serious student of the word should be familiar with. You'll never regret reading 'Gleanings in Genesis' by Arthur Pink.

 

[Skandelon]

I think you are allowing your systematic theology to drive your understanding of the text too much. Spiritual death and separation from God does not mean God is incapable of speaking to humans (fallen or otherwise).

And yet for some reason Calvinists insist on teaching that God's chosen means of speaking to man (by making an appeal to all his enemies to be reconciled to Him) through the GOSPEL is incapable of eliciting a response without a prior work of regeneration. So, the person has to be virtually reconciled before even accepting the appeal for reconciliation. Calvinism really does put the cart before the horse.

 

[OldRegular]

Right. Otherwise no one would be saved. But we know God is good. God is love. God is sovereign. :godisgood: And therefore, His chosen people hear His voice when He calls.

And if God did not choose no one would be saved and Jesus Christ paid the price!:jesus:

 

[Yeshua1]

12 strings writes:
"Cals go on to say this inability includes turning and trusting in Christ without special help from the Holy Spirit."

Most Arminians would also agree with the above as written. The difference is the nature of the "special help".

Isn't it that cals state that God ONLY helps His elect to be able to place faith in Christ

Arms state that God provides grace to ALL, up to us then to accept/reject Christ?

 

[12strings]

12 strings writes:
"Cals go on to say this inability includes turning and trusting in Christ without special help from the Holy Spirit."

Most Arminians would also agree with the above as written. The difference is the nature of the "special help".

Yes, you are correct:
Classic Cal: Man is depraved and unable to come to Christ without supernatural aid, so God chooses some and irresistably draws them.
Classic Arm: Man is depraved and unable to come to christ without supernatural aid, so God gives what is needed to all men (some call this prevenient grace), and then some men choose to respond, others don't.

I was focusing more on describing the condition of man apart from Christ rather than elaborating on the solution.

 

[12strings]

Did you read the type within the account of Cain & Abel given by Pink? ( http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1528709&postcount=3 )

If so, what did you think of it?

Check this thread out:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63059

If you've never read Pink on Genesis you've missed a humongous treat for the inner man:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Gleanings_Genesis/index.htm

He was a genius and greatly gifted by God with the types, analogies, shadows, figures, similes, etc., etc. found in the scriptures, and the types given in Genesis are foundational ones that every serious student of the word should be familiar with. You'll never regret reading 'Gleanings in Genesis' by Arthur Pink.

I had not seen these, thanks.

However, I'm not sure I see the connection between Adam and Eve being "types" and the discussion about their post-fall condition.

 

[convicted1]

-Again, I think you are misunderstanding even the most ardent Cals...I think they would all acknowledge that a non-regenerated man can "hear" God...but would say he is not able to respond SALVIFICALLY.

-Regarding Adam & Eve, We don't know exactly what happened, but many people (cals & non-cals) think Adam and Eve believed God's promise of a futre savior and were thereby saved. This could have happened before or after being driven from the garden...if before, they were regenrated then...but we do know that later their children were offering sacrifices to God.



-again, I don't think they would disagree at all, Even with the wide range of views on this board, I haven't seen any Cals who say a dead soul can't do anything.



-different topic, no time for that here.



-Regeneration first vs. belief first = Long debate. I will say this: Most cals hold to a logical, not temporal order. So at the same moment one is regenerated, he believes. I would be experienced just as if I myself didn't beleive something, and then at some point my much changed...the difference is Cals thing god changed our mind, Arms think we changed it ourselves.



-So I guess we agree here. I'm not sure where you got this idea that someone dead in sins can't sin...I don't know anyone who thinks that.

Someone dead is sins, via the DoG belief, is likened to a corpse. Go up to a corpse and try to talk to it and see if it says anything. Hold your hand out, and see if it shakes your hand. Smack it and see if it smacks back. Offer it something to eat and drink, and see if they take it. A corpse can do nothing. So in the DoG system of theology, how could the soul that is dead in sins and trespasses commit any more sins?

I hear from y'alls side of the debate all the time that a corpse can do nothing. Sin is doing something, it's transgressing God's laws. A corpse can't do anything, seeing that it's dead. Catch my drift? This is what I have gleaned from the 6+ yrs of being on here.