Flesh vs Spirit

[Aaron]

Yeah, you are so right. You know we need to be sure to correct Luke who wrote: "...having believed in God." Acts 16:34

And David: "they did not believe in God or trust in his deliverance." Ps. 78:22

And Peter: "Through him you believe in God" 1 Peter 1:21

And Paul, or maybe the translators of the NLT: "This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life." Rom 4:17

or the NIRV: "The God that Abraham believed in gives life to the dead."

You believe in God, but you don't believe Him. I have posted straightforward maxim after straightforward maxim concerning the condition of man and the nature of the Atonement, but you simply reject it as foolishness and rewrite it to conform to your carnal sense of justice.

Most of the questions you ask are WHY this or that, as opposed to JF who asks almost constantly what IS without worrying about the WHY.

 

[DHK]

*sigh* DHK, There is a natural faith, and a spiritual faith. There is a natural love and a spiritual love. There is a natural sorrow and a spiritual sorrow.

Pointing at the natural counterpart of a spiritual virtue does not prove the virtue to be spiritual. Besides, flowing from a corrupt tree, the fruit itself is corrupt, impotent and unacceptable to God.

No, belief is belief; faith is faith.
Only the object of the faith is different.
When a child believes, has trust, it is usually in their parents. That is the object of their faith is their parents.
The object of my faith is Christ. He promises to save me and forgive my sins when I believe in him. I believed and thus was saved. It was the same kind of belief that my children had in my, or that I had in my parents, etc. Faith is faith. The object of the faith is what is different. Only Christ can save. Faith is the means by which one is saved. We are saved by grace through faith.

 

[Winman]

*sigh* DHK, There is a natural faith, and a spiritual faith. There is a natural love and a spiritual love. There is a natural sorrow and a spiritual sorrow.

Pointing at the natural counterpart of a spiritual virtue does not prove the virtue to be spiritual. Besides, flowing from a corrupt tree, the fruit itself is corrupt, impotent and unacceptable to God.

Where do the scriptures say there is a natural faith and a spiritual faith? Where did you learn that?

Amazing, the devils are dead in sin, yet the scriptures say they believe in God, yet you say an unregenerate man cannot believe. Where do the scriptures say this?

 

[quantumfaith]

No, belief is belief; faith is faith.
Only the object of the faith is different.
When a child believes, has trust, it is usually in their parents. That is the object of their faith is their parents.
The object of my faith is Christ. He promises to save me and forgive my sins when I believe in him. I believed and thus was saved. It was the same kind of belief that my children had in my, or that I had in my parents, etc. Faith is faith. The object of the faith is what is different. Only Christ can save. Faith is the means by which one is saved. We are saved by grace through faith.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Aaron]

Thread summed up:

Do men possess faith by nature, or is it supernaturally endowed by the Spirit?

Calvinists: It is supernaturally endowed by the Spirit.

Most Noncalvinists: Men possess faith by nature, even though the Scriptures say the natural man is at enmity with God, and cannot receive the things of God.

webdog: Flesh or spirit? There is nothing you have that is not of God, so what's the difference?

Scandal: (Originally held webdog's view, then went through the following metamorphoses.)

1) I don't know.
2) It's a natural human trait, but is dormant till excited by the preaching of the Gospel.
3) It's not a natural human trait, it's created by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel.
4) Why do you make everything so difficult?
5) I feel sorry for you.
​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK I see it now.....the Moderator tag team! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thread summed up:

Do men possess faith by nature, or is it supernaturally endowed by the Spirit?

Calvinists: It is supernaturally endowed by the Spirit.

Most Noncalvinists: Men possess faith by nature, even though the Scriptures say the natural man is at enmity with God, and cannot receive the things of God.

webdog: Flesh or spirit? There is nothing you have that is not of God, so what's the difference?

Scandal: (Originally held webdog's view, then went through the following metamorphoses.)

1) I don't know.
2) It's a natural human trait, but is dormant till excited by the preaching of the Gospel.
3) It's not a natural human trait, it's created by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel.
4) Why do you make everything so difficult?
5) I feel sorry for you.
​

Ohhhhhh, tears are flowing from my eyes....Thank heavens I wasnt drinkin coffee! ROFL :laugh: Nailed it:thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

Thread summed up:

Do men possess faith by nature, or is it supernaturally endowed by the Spirit?

Calvinists: It is supernaturally endowed by the Spirit.

Most Noncalvinists: Men possess faith by nature, even though the Scriptures say the natural man is at enmity with God, and cannot receive the things of God.

webdog: Flesh or spirit? There is nothing you have that is not of God, so what's the difference?

Scandal: (Originally held webdog's view, then went through the following metamorphoses.)

1) I don't know.
2) It's a natural human trait, but is dormant till excited by the preaching of the Gospel.
3) It's not a natural human trait, it's created by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel.
4) Why do you make everything so difficult?
5) I feel sorry for you.
​

I have to agree with you here. Time and again I've stated that some on here believe faith is ones own natural ability to come to God, without needin g enabling, rejecting faith as a gift, that, man doesn't need enabled, that it is as simple as making a choice in our own power. Then I'm called out to "prove that persons say we have our own natural ability because we already have faith!!!!! No one here believes that!!!!!!" Yeah, sure. :thumbs:

This has been stated on here enough all one has to do is look around and see it.

Skan has gone through these stages, I think he is struggling and searching, and the pride factor that we all deal with, all of these play in together in this process. I recall Jonathan Edwards, others, struggling with these things. Some finally giving into the truth that they had long fought and struggled with.

Yep, you nailed it, EWF is correct in that.

 

[Skandelon]

Thread summed up:

Do men possess faith by nature, or is it supernaturally endowed by the Spirit?

Calvinists: It is supernaturally endowed by the Spirit.

I think you might want to include the word "irresistible" or "effectual" in there somewhere unless you feel the word "endowed" is strong enough to connote that meaning, otherwise it is no different from what we have claimed. But you wouldn't know that since you are too busy putting words I never said in my mouth.

Men possess faith by nature,

As I clearly and painstakingly explained: There is no one here who believes that in the way you mean it, because you don't believe the Spirit's work in and through the Gospel counts as a real "work of the Holy Spirit."

even though the Scriptures say the natural man is at enmity with God, and cannot receive the things of God.

That is man's natural condition, so I wonder what a possible solution for that might be? Could it be a Holy Spirit wrought message meant for God's enemies appealing for them to be reconciled? Naww, that would be too simple. Why would anyone think that a divine message of reconciliation might actually have the power to bring reconciliation?

webdog: Flesh or spirit? There is nothing you have that is not of God, so what's the difference?

Scandal: (Originally held webdog's view, then went through the following metamorphoses.)

Huh, that is not a "view," it is a CLARIFYING QUESTION ABOUT YOUR VIEW, which you avoided answering for obvious reasons. Let's look at why that might be, shall we?

1. If someone says that the ability to believe is "natural" (from birth) and another says that ability is "divine" (from God), the question is this: If the ability to believe is "good" then aren't both really "from God" since all good things come from God? The obvious answer is "YES," so the response is: So what difference does our answer matter?

2. The reason you don't like this is that you'd like to corner our view into a view by which we claim the natural man, on his own, does something good without anything given to him by God. That is your straw-man and you'll apparently do just about anything to paint us into that straw-man's suit. Nice try, but those with an IQ above 4 can see through it.

1) I don't know.

I never said that in regard to my view on this subject.

2) It's a natural human trait, but is dormant till excited by the preaching of the Gospel.

I never said that, ever.

3) It's not a natural human trait, it's created by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel.

I never used these words, but this is the closest you've ever gotten so far. It's not as if there aren't enough quotes from me for you to copy and paste, so may I suggest you let my words speak for themselves...you know like I did when I quoted all your phrases about faith being a state of being and not a choice, remember? No offense, but you stink at telling people what I believe.

4) Why do you make everything so difficult?

Again, not my view, but a clarifying question about YOUR VIEW that you once again avoided answering. Revealing.

5) I feel sorry for you.
[/INDENT]

You got that one right, but how did you know since I never said that?

 

[Skandelon]

You believe in God, but you don't believe Him.

Of course I could say the same about you from my perspective, but that obviously accomplishes nothing in a discussion except to inflame. That seems to be your goal in most discussions. :tear:

I have posted straightforward maxim after straightforward maxim concerning the condition of man and the nature of the Atonement, but you simply reject it as foolishness and rewrite it to conform to your carnal sense of justice.

Question beg much?

 

[DHK]

Ohhhhhh, tears are flowing from my eyes....Thank heavens I wasnt drinkin coffee! ROFL :laugh: Nailed it:thumbs:

How do you know you weren't drinking coffee?
Before you took that first sip, did you have 100% faith that it was coffee?
Was it blind faith? Or was the object of your faith based on experience (you have done it so many times before).
Perhaps the object of your faith was based on the promise of another--the person who said they would get you a cup. I don't know because I wasn't there. Either way, before you took that first sip of coffee you had to exercise a measure of faith that it was indeed coffee. You believed, didn't you? Was your faith from God or from you? Did your tears affect your coffee any?

 

[DHK]

I have to agree with you here. Time and again I've stated that some on here believe faith is ones own natural ability to come to God, without needin g enabling, rejecting faith as a gift, that, man doesn't need enabled, that it is as simple as making a choice in our own power. Then I'm called out to "prove that persons say we have our own natural ability because we already have faith!!!!! No one here believes that!!!!!!" Yeah, sure. :thumbs:

This is despite the fact that Jesus infers that even children have faith; and secondly, that nowhere in the Bible can you point to a single verse that backs up this silly idea that God gives faith to the unsaved. Prove this doctrine by Scripture or stop repeating this false rant.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is despite the fact that Jesus infers that even children have faith; and secondly, that nowhere in the Bible can you point to a single verse that backs up this silly idea that God gives faith to the unsaved. Prove this doctrine by Scripture or stop repeating this false rant.

Perhaps the child like faith He referred to is that of how we are in the new state of being born-again/ in theprocess of regeneration, not some faith akin to sitting on a chair, as you erroneously espouse? I'm not into, nor do I embrace easy-believism, nor do I accept your view here.

I've proven it to you as have several others with plenty of Scriptures, over and over, time and again. That would then leave your ideas as silly and a false rant.

 

[JesusFan]

This is despite the fact that Jesus infers that even children have faith; and secondly, that nowhere in the Bible can you point to a single verse that backs up this silly idea that God gives faith to the unsaved. Prove this doctrine by Scripture or stop repeating this false rant.

Guess God never did really "open up" Lydia heart to be able to respond to Jesus in Acts 16:14, Eh?

JUST as Cornelius, BOTH "worshipped"God, as Romans 1 makes clear, they could respond to God general revelation, but both HAD to have God do Hos work of openning their hearts to His special revelation in Christ!

 

[DHK]

Guess God never did really "open up" Lydia heart to be able to respond to Jesus in Acts 16:14, Eh?

JUST as Cornelius, BOTH "worshipped"God, as Romans 1 makes clear, they could respond to God general revelation, but both HAD to have God do Hos work of openning their hearts to His special revelation in Christ!

Where does it say God gave her faith. Chapter and verse please!

 

[DHK]

Perhaps the child like faith He referred to is that of how we are in the new state of being born-again/ in theprocess of regeneration, not some faith akin to sitting on a chair, as you erroneously espouse? I'm not into, nor do I embrace easy-believism, nor do I accept your view here.

I've proven it to you as have several others with plenty of Scriptures, over and over, time and again. That would then leave your ideas as silly and a false rant.

Never a single verse that God gives unbelievers faith--not one.
BTW, I don't believe easy-believism either. No need to throw rocks. It is an indication that you have lost the debate before you have even started.

 

[preacher4truth]

Never a single verse that God gives unbelievers faith--not one.
BTW, I don't believe easy-believism either. No need to throw rocks. It is an indication that you have lost the debate before you have even started.

We've given you plenty of Scriptures.

Who's throwing rocks? Did I say you believe in easy-believism? Re-read and comprehend. You must lose a huge percentage of debates according to your indication of what losing one is.

 

[DHK]

We've given you plenty of Scriptures.

Who's throwing rocks? Did I say you believe in easy-believism? Re-read and comprehend. You must lose a huge percentage of debates according to your indication of what losing one is.

You have given what you think are verses that prop up your case but they don't. Most of them refer to believers not unbelievers. So I ask you again, show me one verse in the Bible that demonstrates that God gives faith to unbelievers.

Your above answer demonstrates that you cannot do it.
Your accusation is also false.

 

[JesusFan]

Where does it say God gave her faith. Chapter and verse please!

Nice try!
Point here is that JUST as with Cornelius, she worshipped Hebrew God, but HAD to have the Lord by His HS "wake her up" spiritually, that would allow her to hear and belive it...

What do you think would have happened IF God chose NOT to have "openned her" up to hearing the Gospel message?

 

[preacher4truth]

You have given what you think are verses that prop up your case but they don't. Most of them refer to believers not unbelievers. So I ask you again, show me one verse in the Bible that demonstrates that God gives faith to unbelievers.

Your above answer demonstrates that you cannot do it.
Your accusation is also false.

You've been shown more than one verse on many occasions.

Perhaps muster up some faith and believe it? :love2: