For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

[DHK]

There are and can be setbacks in the progress of the kingdom. Islam is demonic. The tsunami that happened a few years ago wiped out many of the muslims who were persecuting Christians.
I do not look in the newspaper to find this teaching but the scripture;
psalm22
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

There is no progress here. Islam is growing; Christianity is declining.
Churches are being emptied and sold. In fact a Baptist church in our city was recently sold to a real estate developer. The church got smaller and smaller. Then you can just guess the rest of the story. Happens frequently.

The scripture you quoted describes the Kingdom (millennial) to come.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

The above has never happened, is not happening and will only happen after Jesus comes and sets up his Kingdom.

All the ends of the world DO NOT remember and turn to the Lord!!!!!!!! in this age. They never have.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would have to say that I can't see this world getting better. That's not just a generalized feeling, either. To me, it's evident that the world is getting worse. I'm not even talking about the natural disasters, I'm just talking about the general attitude of humanity. To think that this world is somehow getting better seems a bit blinded to the reality of the situation.



Christ warns of a falling away in the last days, and technically we've been in the last days ever since He ascended. As Peter wrote, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I've been led for many years to preach and teach that we're currently in a space of time I call "the longsuffering of God." This period of time is marked by our ability to continue to witness and preach the great works the Lord has wrought in our lives. As Christ said that no man knows the day or hour He will return, but the Father, I believe the Father's command is all that is keeping Christ from returning. (remember, I am an amillennialist)

Hello Tony

There are several such passages.Some see them as warning about the false teaching and apostasy as the jewish theocracy was coming to a close.Think of the multitude of warnings in Hebrews
In some of the passages....the word for world is the word for age.....so it was speaking of the end of the age.....the jewish theocracy
.The church has grown in thousands of locations and worldwide since these warnings were written.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no progress here. Islam is growing; Christianity is declining.
Churches are being emptied and sold. In fact a Baptist church in our city was recently sold to a real estate developer. The church got smaller and smaller. Then you can just guess the rest of the story. Happens frequently.

The scripture you quoted describes the Kingdom (millennial) to come.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

The above has never happened, is not happening and will only happen after Jesus comes and sets up his Kingdom.

All the ends of the world DO NOT remember and turn to the Lord!!!!!!!! in this age. They never have.

no wonder the churches are closing by you you have a message of doom and gloom The people are probably hiding in their rooms afraid because you say Satan is ruling instead of Jesus ruling on the throne from Heaven. Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies.
Psalm 22 does speak of the kingdom rule....it is happening as we speak.

 

[PreachTony]

There are several such passages.Some see them as warning about the false teaching and apostasy as the jewish theocracy was coming to a close.Think of the multitude of warnings in Hebrews
In some of the passages....the word for world is the word for age.....so it was speaking of the end of the age.....the jewish theocracy
.The church has grown in thousands of locations and worldwide since these warnings were written.

I would caution that we remember something: a church growing in number does not equate to a church growing in spirit. I'm not saying that every church that's growing should be held in doubt, but we also shouldn't assume that each one is truly growing in spirit.

Jesus even said that many would come in the last days and at judgment saying how great of things they had done in the name of the Lord, but He never knew them. For many of the "not-spiritually-growing" churches, the scripture holds that their god is their belly. They are blatantly labeled as enemies of the true church.

That being said, the only way to truly discern the nature of these churches is to see what kind of fruit they bear. That's the best we can do, unless the Spirit guides us otherwise.

 

[Aaron]

no wonder the churches are closing by you you have a message of doom and gloom.

I'm no Dispy, but this is a primary error of Posties, that hope for this life is a legitimate hope.

Look at the message given to certain seekers by Christ Himself:

And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. - Luke 9:57-62​

In each case, not only are earthly comforts not promised, the seeker is told to forsake them. Why? Because the promise of hope in this life is an invalid hope, and in reality leads one away from Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm no Dispy, but this is a primary error of Posties, that hope for this life is a legitimate hope.

24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Ro 8

How is the hope of the posties or Icon different from the hope in this passage?

 

[DHK]

no wonder the churches are closing by you you have a message of doom and gloom The people are probably hiding in their rooms afraid because you say Satan is ruling instead of Jesus ruling on the throne from Heaven. Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies.
Psalm 22 does speak of the kingdom rule....it is happening as we speak.

You are putting the blame on me because the world is the way it is??
That is a new one!

Jesus said: When I come, will I find faith on this earth?
He predicted that things would continue to get worse and worse, and so they are. They will continue to do so until he comes again.

 

[kyredneck]

....Jesus said: When I come, will I find faith on this earth?

....Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find [the] faith on the earth [the land]? Lu 18:8

Terra firma, i.e. the land, as in the land of Israel, as in fulfilled already:

10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

 

[DHK]

....Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find [the] faith on the earth [the land]? Lu 18:8

Terra firma, i.e. the land, as in the land of Israel, as in fulfilled already:

10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

The pick and choose prophecy is always convenient.

Peter quoted from Joel chapter two:
[FONT=&quot]Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.[/FONT]
--God's Spirit has never been poured on ALL flesh. When do you suppose that will happen?
What about the wonders in heaven? Peter never indicated that those were fulfilled that day, and they weren't. The sun wasn't turned to darkness, neither the moon into blood.
The great and terrible day of the Lord had not come.
None of the above came in 70 A.D. either.

Likewise in Amos 9
[FONT=&quot]Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.[/FONT]
--In verse 14 the Lord will bring again the captivity of Israel, and they shall build the cities which have been lying waste, and plant in their land, and prosper.
This is only beginning. But there will come a time when she will be able to do so without the fear of any enemies.
These things have not taken place, have they?

 

[kyredneck]

The pick and choose prophecy is always convenient.

Peter quoted from Joel chapter two:
[FONT=&quot]Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.[/FONT]
--God's Spirit has never been poured on ALL flesh. When do you suppose that will happen?
What about the wonders in heaven? Peter never indicated that those were fulfilled that day, and they weren't. The sun wasn't turned to darkness, neither the moon into blood.
The great and terrible day of the Lord had not come.
None of the above came in 70 A.D. either.

Wrong.

16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2

Likewise in Amos 9
[FONT=&quot]Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.[/FONT]
--In verse 14 the Lord will bring again the captivity of Israel, and they shall build the cities which have been lying waste, and plant in their land, and prosper.
This is only beginning. But there will come a time when she will be able to do so without the fear of any enemies.
These things have not taken place, have they?

Likewise, wrong:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

 

[percho]

24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Ro 8

How is the hope of the posties or Icon different from the hope in this passage?

Because that hope of Romans 8:24,25 is the hope of the redemption of the body, the adoption, of verse 23 the very reason we who have the firstfruit of the Spirit grown within ourselves for we also await to be manifested as son of God verse 19.

Christ in us is the hope of glory. The glory that we who have the firstfruit of the Spirit are joint heirs of, not yet inheritors, with Christ.

Heirs of the hope of glory which Titus 3:7 says makes us, heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The hope of eternal life, to a redeemed body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is from God, 1 Cor 6:19,20 also Eph. 1:13,14.

We may need to re-examine John 3 as to just what is born again.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor 15:49 In the body?

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:53

Maybe this should be posted in asterisktom's threads.

 

[DHK]

Wrong.

16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2



Likewise, wrong:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

What kind of argument/debate is this? You quote the same passages of Scripture, and then without any explanation declare yourself right and me wrong. Why says?
Do you declare red is blue and blue is red? What makes it so?
Is a crow a mocking bird? Perhaps the mocking bird is mocking you?
Just because you declare it to be true doesn't make it so.

Peter quoted from Joel. He didn't declare that the Spirit had been poured on ALL flesh right then and there. He knew it hadn't. There were approximately 100,000 that showed up for the Feast of Pentecost. Of that number only 3,000 or 3% got saved. That is not all flesh! The very ones that crucified our Lord were there. Did the Spirit fall upon them? NO! It did not! It did not come upon all flesh.
There was a partial fulfillment then. The complete fulfillment of that verse will come at a future date when Christ comes again to set up his kingdom.

Neither was the sun turned to darkness or the moon turned into blood. Just because you misunderstand the scripture doesn't mean that you can mess up world events and say that those things happened when they didn't. That is the same as lying to others about history. It didn't happen and there is no historical evidence to prove it did. Why would you base your faith on a lie, or a lack of evidence, or a misunderstanding of Scripture at the very least.

Concerning the passage in Amos I gave a complete answer to that passage here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2148495&postcount=190
You should take time to read it.
The things in that passage have not happened either.
Again quoting the passage is not demonstrating any thing.

 

[percho]

What kind of argument/debate is this? You quote the same passages of Scripture, and then without any explanation declare yourself right and me wrong. Why says?
Do you declare red is blue and blue is red? What makes it so?
Is a crow a mocking bird? Perhaps the mocking bird is mocking you?
Just because you declare it to be true doesn't make it so.

Peter quoted from Joel. He didn't declare that the Spirit had been poured on ALL flesh right then and there. He knew it hadn't. There were approximately 100,000 that showed up for the Feast of Pentecost. Of that number only 3,000 or 3% got saved. That is not all flesh! The very ones that crucified our Lord were there. Did the Spirit fall upon them? NO! It did not! It did not come upon all flesh.
There was a partial fulfillment then. The complete fulfillment of that verse will come at a future date when Christ comes again to set up his kingdom.

Neither was the sun turned to darkness or the moon turned into blood. Just because you misunderstand the scripture doesn't mean that you can mess up world events and say that those things happened when they didn't. That is the same as lying to others about history. It didn't happen and there is no historical evidence to prove it did. Why would you base your faith on a lie, or a lack of evidence, or a misunderstanding of Scripture at the very least.

Concerning the passage in Amos I gave a complete answer to that passage here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2148495&postcount=190
You should take time to read it.
The things in that passage have not happened either.
Again quoting the passage is not demonstrating any thing.

I would bet my rear end that Saul/Paul was there and he wasn't saved that day. It wasn't the moment for Paul to receive the firstfruit of the Spirit.

 

[Aaron]

24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Ro 8

How is the hope of the posties or Icon different from the hope in this passage?

I don't know about Icon himself or of any individual Posty, however, the argument that Icon made was that Posties tend to be more active in building the kingdom so to speak because they have something earthly to look forward to.

That is definitely not the hope described in the passage you cited.

 

[DHK]

I would bet my rear end that Saul/Paul was there and he wasn't saved that day. It wasn't the moment for Paul to receive the firstfruit of the Spirit.

If Paul did not get saved (and he didn't) he did not receive the Spirit--firstfruit, last-fruit or middle-fruit. He went on to be a murderer of the saints of Christ. "And we know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.[/FONT]

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You are putting the blame on me because the world is the way it is??
That is a new one!

Yes...I see it clearly DHK...it is your fault:laugh:
seriously...
DHK.....if I were still premill I would do all I can to preach that the ascended Christ has full victory over satan,and the kingdom rules now starting from heaven and extending down to the earth. Even if there was gross apostasy[which there is in our day} I would look toward those who are faithful.

Jesus said: When I come, will I find faith on this earth?

I believe that text from lk18 was speaking of Jesus return in judgement, not the literal second coming...He was warning that generation upon whom the curses of the song of Moses was going to happen.
He predicted that things would continue to get worse and worse, and so they are.

they did get worse and worse until the temple was destroyed.

They will continue to do so until he comes again.

that is why we have debate.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't know about Icon himself or of any individual Posty, however, the argument that Icon made was that Posties tend to be more active in building the kingdom so to speak because they have something earthly to look forward to.

That is definitely not the hope described in the passage you cited.

Aaron...
You are correct that this is one of the main charges that the Amill raise against posties:wavey: I have heard several sermons where they seek to rip the postmill saying that postmills do not groan waiting for the redemption...they say it has no place in scripture...

http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doct...illennialism/Defense of Amillennialism00.html

he makes a strong case and attacks posties...

here are some excerpts;

The tactic by which postmillennialism tries to escape the force of the biblical passages that forecast apostasy and persecution in the last days is both desperate and deadly dangerous. It consists of referring all of these passages to an event in the past. This event is the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. Whatever in the New Testament, and in the Old as well, predicts tribulation for the people of God has already been completely fulfilled. Nothing of this applies to the church any longer. Thus, huge chunks of Holy Scripture are made irrelevant to the church, including most of the book of Revelation.

Gary DeMar, who has boasted of postmillennialism's powerful exegesis, interprets II Thessalonians 2 in such a way that nothing in the chapter is future. The man of sin was a "contemporary" of the apostle Paul. The day of the Lord was the day of the destruction of Jerusalem. The apostasy was the falling away of the Jews after the ascension of Christ. The coming of Christ was Jesus' coming in judgment upon Jerusalem (see DeMar, Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church, American Vision, 1994, pp. 311-350).

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism: (12)

The Victory of Christ in History


Prof. David J. Engelsma


Jesus Christ is victor.

He is victor already now. He is victor in this world.

We do not see this yet. But we believe it as the clear testimony of the Bible.

In His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, He has become the Lord. He sits now at God's right hand. He wields the power of providence, upholding and governing all things (Eph. 1:19-23; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 5).

Jesus Christ is victor as Mediator of the covenant and Head of the church. By His atoning death and bodily resurrection, He has conquered sin, Satan, death, and the ungodly world and has become the sovereign, almighty, life-giving Lord on behalf of His church.

He is victor, not only personally on high in heaven but also as He is present in His church down here in the world by His Spirit and Word.

His gospel goes out into all the world with conquering power (Rev. 6:1, 2).

His church on earth is a victorious institution. She is indestructible. She cannot be defeated by her foes. "I will build my church," said the Christ, the Son of the livmg God, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

She accomplishes her ecclesiastical calling and labor with unique, awesome power, and without fail. "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19).

The church of Christ has been victorious in history, as regards her mature, New Testament form, since the day of Pentecost.

 

[Iconoclast]

from the same;

Gary North sprinkles the charge that Reformed amillennialism is "defeatist" liberally throughout his writings. He misses few opportunities to jeer at Reformed amillennialists as "pessimillennialists." The amillennial doctrine of the last things, says North, makes "God ... a loser in history" (Unconditional Surrender: God's Program for Victory, Institute for Christian Economics, 1988, p.167). This is a damning indictment of a doctrine.

Nor is it only the Christian Reconstructionists who present the controversy between amillennialism and postmillennialism as centering on the victory of Christ in history. The Presbyterian J. Marcellus Kik did the same. The coming "glorious age of the church upon earth" in which "all nations (become) Christian and (live) in peace," he called "the triumph of Christianity throughout the earth." He accused amillennialists of being "pessimists and defeatists":

Amillennialism ... (is) in retreat from the world and blasphemously surrender(s) it to the devil. By its very premise that the world will only get worse ... it cuts the nerve of Christian action.... If we hold that the world can only get worse ... what impetus is left for applying the word of God to the problems of this world? The result is an inevitable one: amillennial believers who profess faith in the whole word of God ... are also the most impotent segment of American society, with the least impact on American life. To turn the world-conquering word of the sovereign, omnipotent, and triune God into a symbol of impotence is not a mark of faith. It is blasphemy ("Postmillennialism versus Impotent Religion," Journal of Christian Reconstruction, pp. 126, 127).

I would like some feedback from you men to this charge.....these are the kind of statements I have been weighing out for a few years.I think each side has something to say....so I do not ridicule or condemn either side, but I am uncertain which position I find most fit's the biblical idea.



To say that the defeat of Satan will only come through a cataclysmic act at the second coming of Christ is ridiculous in the light of these passages. To think that the church must grow weaker and weaker and the kingdom of Satan stronger and stronger is to deny that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil; it is to dishonor Christ; it is to disbelieve His Word. We do not glorify God nor His prophetic word by being pessimists and defeatists. With sufficient faith in Christ we could crush Satan under our feet shortly. Or else these passages have no significance to the church of Christ (An Eschatology of Victory, Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971, pp.4, 19, 20).

 

[Iconoclast]

or this defense...which describes you????

A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism (13)

The Victory of Christ in History (concluded)


Prof. David J. Engelsma


The gross error of postmillennialism is that it misconceives the victory of Christ in history as carnal rather than spiritual. Gary North is wrong when he says, "It's not a question of 'dominion vs. no dominion'; it's a question of whose dominion" (Unconditional Surrender, ICE, 1988, p. 317).

It is emphatically not a question of "whose dominion."

Jesus Christ has dominion.

Jesus Christ has dominion in the world in history.

Jesus Christ has dominion now.

Not only does Jesus Christ now have dominion over all creatures, including His enemies, by His power, but also He now has dominion in His church by His Spirit and Word.

The question is not, "Whose dominion?"

But the question is, "What kind of dominion?"

Specifically, the question is, "Carnal dominion or spiritual dominion?"

Carnal dominion is earthly victory. It is victory according to the thinking of man. It consists of numbers - the conversion of a majority of humans; of physical force - a Christian police force and army; of control of culture -godly television, radio, and newspapers; of deliverance from worldly cares and natural miseries - the virtual eradication of poverty, sickness, and war; and of material prosperity - jobs, money, houses, and long life.

This is the dominion of Christ that is proclaimed by postmillennialism, especially by Christian Reconstructionism. This is supposed to be the victory of Christ in history, the flourishing of the Messianic kingdom.

It is a carnal dominion.

The victory heralded by Reformed amillennialism is spiritual. It is real victory. It is real victory here and now. But it is victory according to the thinking of God. It is contrary to human standards of victory. It makes all natural human thinking about victory, including that of Christian Reconstructionism, foolishness. No eye can see this victory, just as no eye can see the kingdom that is established by this victory (John 3:3). The victory and kingdom of Christ can only be known by faith.

The true victory of Christ in history is His saving of the elect church from sin. It is His empowering that church to confess His name. It is His preservation of the church in holiness of life unto life eternal. To this saving of the church belongs Christ's institution of true churches that preach the gospel purely, administer the sacraments properly, and exercise Christian discipline rightly.
The conquering Christ gathers the elect church out of all nations and institutes true churches in all nations. Thus, the nations are saved and discipled, as Christ commanded in Matthew 28:19. In the salvation and obedience of the elect among them, the nations are saved and discipled, regardless of the numbers, whether many or few. The postmillennial notion that the salvation of a nation requires the conversion of a majority of the population is unbiblical. Just as the elect remnant in Israel was the real nation of Israel, even though they were the small minority (Rom. 9:6), so also the elect Chinese are the real China, the elect Dutch are the real Netherlands, and the elect English are the real England. If the victory of Christ is a matter of sheer numbers, Christ is the loser in history, since He saves fewer humans than perished in Adam, as even the most optimistic postmillennialist must admit.

 

[DHK]

DHK



Yes...I see it clearly DHK...it is your fault:laugh:
seriously...
DHK.....if I were still premill I would do all I can to preach that the ascended Christ has full victory over satan,and the kingdom rules now starting from heaven and extending down to the earth. Even if there was gross apostasy[which there is in our day} I would look toward those who are faithful.

I look towards Christ. Read 2Cor.5. What motivated Paul?
The love of Christ constraineth us...
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men.
Our time is short. Jesus could come at any time. Millions are still without Christ. Yes there is an urgency about getting the gospel out while there is still time.
Satan in the god of this world. It is a spiritual battle that we are engaged in. In case you haven't noticed there are missionaries that are being martyred for the sake of Christ today.

I believe that text from lk18 was speaking of Jesus return in judgement, not the literal second coming...He was warning that generation upon whom the curses of the song of Moses was going to happen.
He predicted that things would continue to get worse and worse, and so they are.

Christ will return in judgment after the tribulation--in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, as described in Mark 8:38. That hasn't happened yet. It never happened in 70 A.D. It has never happened in history. It will happen, and then He will set up his kingdom (Millennial). Until then things will get worse and worse.

they did get worse and worse until the temple was destroyed.

That was nothing compared to WWI and WWII, and some of the other catastrophes. Ask the Jews. What was a greater catastrophe: the destruction of the Jerusalem or the Holocaust? Ask a holocaust survivor that question. The destruction of Jerusalem was a localized event that took place on one city at one time in history. It wasn't even as bad as the destruction caused at 9/11 was it?