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For amillenial brothers....thoughts?
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”fn O Death, where is your sting?fn
O Hades, where is your victory?”fn NKJV 1 Cor 15:50,53-55
Have those passages in any way been fulfilled other than in Christ. That is that Jesus and to the present Jesus only of all men born of woman has put on immortality.
All others, including those whom God has baptized into the church, are either flesh and blood or have died in the flesh and have yet to have been made incorruptible?
Therefore the saying.
O Death where your sting
O Hades where your victory
Still applies to those flesh and blood in the church and were in the church at their death.
Just when will it be that the gates (death in the flesh) of Hades has not prevailed over the church?
When will those who have passed through the gates of Hades reign with Christ?
Do we have to be made incorruptible to inherit the kingdom of God and rule with Christ?
I'm not trying to rip Posties. Postmillennialism is to be preferred to Dispensationalism and Preterism, I just don't think it's right for the reasons I gave. If someone else thinks differently, well, we'll just see. BUT . . .
It is the grace of God that works in one to will and to do of God's good pleasure, not the hope of pragmatic benefits. That's the only thing I'm taking a real issue to.
Yeah, I admit, I used that one out of context; should've thought on it a bit longer.
The big problem I have with it is this;
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:17
Who would be ruling with Christ?
DHK
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
He is a defeated foe.He only has influence over the unsaved.
why would I not notice?
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
He is a defeated foe.He only has influence over the unsaved.
why would I not notice?
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
There are some scriptures that seem to be meaningless to you, or you simply have no answer to. Why not try to explain them for once?
[FONT="]1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.[/FONT]
In light of the activity a real personage, the devil himself, who is not defeated, but walks about as a roaring lion, Peter gives three commands to believers:
a. Be sober.
b. Be vigilant.
c. Resist steadfastly.
Why? The devil is real, active and attacks Christians on a regular basis. He is not defeated. Or, is Peter a liar??
What about Paul
[FONT="]Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.[/FONT]
--The command is to stand against the wiles of the devil. That is now, in real time. He is not defeated. He is the god of this world. He roams about as a roaring lion. He seeks to devour those whom he can. That is not speaking of the unsaved, but of Christians.
Paul continues:
[FONT="]Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;[/FONT]
--Here is all the armour of God, all so that we may stand against the wiles of the devil, against Satan's power. It is a spiritual battle that we are in and the stakes are great. The eternal destiny of others are at stake.
Peter, Paul, and now James:
[FONT="]James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.[/FONT]
--If the devil is so weak, so defeated, why does James say that we must resist him?
I said:
In case you haven't noticed there are missionaries that are being martyred for the sake of Christ today.
But apparently you haven't taken notice. You have stuck your nose into an apocalyptic book that speaks of the future and not of the present. That passage has nothing to do with the those that are being martyred for their faith right now, at this present time. That has to do with the Tribulation Period. Why would you go to the Book of Revelation to prove your point? Is everything just one big allegory, a fairy tale to you?
We live in a real world, where real people are sacrificing their real lives for a real savior who lives today.
DHK
all scriptures have meaning...the meaning God has given them.
No one says satan does not exist. Your ideas are greatly mistaken however.
satan has been defeated at the the cross . In Christ we have power over satan. even before the cross Jesus gave the disciples power over him.
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
No Apostle is a liar and such a suggestion is foolish. Because you misunderstand the Kingdom and our role in it does not make the apostle a liar.
it just makes you teaching loaded with error.
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4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We are given the means of grace...but we are to use the means...
Sorry but I do not share you grim and gloomy look at the present or the future. If God allows a Christian to be put to death they will be greatly rewarded. The verse in revelation has been true since the day it was written.
Christians were put to death then and all through church history.
Your comments are bent.
this is why you cannot understand what is written , it spoke to them to who it was written and it covers all church history. You tribulation fantasies and story telling do not change the verses...
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
This is clear..it was clear to John, it was clear to the persecuted church. They did not have you suggesting it had nothing to do with them or anyone else in church history until your dispensational ideas could be inflicted upon the text.
John saw these things and wrote to the churches. No wrongly dividing and fragmenting the scriptures until darby and the Plymouth brethren, the Millerites, and Amy McPherson got involved .
What you speak of as the tribulation period happened already to them, that is why they were both warned and instructed in these writings.
Well ...you suggest I am gravely in error, as well as the other commentators I briefly offered who see many portions in the same way.
I believe you are without understanding of several key biblical teachings and themes....The heavenly Zion and Jerusalem, the True Israel, the Covenants.
among other things....you are wrong about the 5 points, you are wrong with the carnal Christian heresy, you are wrong about the backslider,so you might be a bit slower to stone me:thumbs:
Yes we do...but it is this way;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect
If you come to truth on these verses you will see what others see.
all scriptures have meaning...the meaning God has given them.
I do have answers that you do not like.
Not a problem:thumbsup:
No one says satan does not exist. Your ideas are greatly mistaken however.
satan has been defeated at the the cross . In Christ we have power over satan. even before the cross Jesus gave the disciples power over him.
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
No Apostle is a liar and such a suggestion is foolish. Because you misunderstand the Kingdom and our role in it does not make the apostle a liar.
it just makes you teaching loaded with error.
Paul gives instructions on how to conduct ourselves to be victorious . That is why those who are false professors of faith are to be put outside, or in the case of Christians in sin...they are put out for the destruction of the flesh;
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4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We are given the means of grace...but we are to use the means...
Sorry but I do not share you grim and gloomy look at the present or the future. If God allows a Christian to be put to death they will be greatly rewarded. The verse in revelation has been true since the day it was written.
Christians were put to death then and all through church history.
Your comments are bent.
this is why you cannot understand what is written , it spoke to them to who it was written and it covers all church history. You tribulation fantasies and story telling do not change the verses...
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
This is clear..it was clear to John, it was clear to the persecuted church. They did not have you suggesting it had nothing to do with them or anyone else in church history until your dispensational ideas could be inflicted upon the text.
John saw these things and wrote to the churches. No wrongly dividing and fragmenting the scriptures until darby and the Plymouth brethren, the Millerites, and Amy McPherson got involved .
What you speak of as the tribulation period happened already to them, that is why they were both warned and instructed in these writings.
Well ...you suggest I am gravely in error, as well as the other commentators I briefly offered who see many portions in the same way.
I believe you are without understanding of several key biblical teachings and themes....The heavenly Zion and Jerusalem, the True Israel, the Covenants.
among other things....you are wrong about the 5 points, you are wrong with the carnal Christian heresy, you are wrong about the backslider,so you might be a bit slower to stone me:thumbs:
Yes we do...but it is this way;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect
If you come to truth on these verses you will see what others see.
Okay Aaron...how would you respond to these ideas, or in a sense..attacks on the amill position here. Could you give your understanding on how much, or in what areas of life can and should a Christian be active in this age we live in?
this is where I find that most Amill men, once having given their view of endtimes...come up "light" on their answers...I see very little addressing of this outside of our personal piety or in our local church.
How about when we leave our home, or local church....How do we interact with the lost world? evangelism ...yes.[that is always important]..but is that it? Do we just let the heathen do what they want to do?:wavey: here are the attacks;
now I do not share such a harsh view....I did not write this...I do not see the need to be harsh, but rather to address each others concerns.
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"Satan is Alive and Well." I am certain you have heard the phrase before. It is the name of a book.
These scriptures were not written to you and are not applicable to you. They were written pre-cross and were specific instructions to his apostles for a particular time in history.
If you don't believe go and find a place where there are serpents and scorpions and then wearing sandals as the disciples wore, step on some of them. Trust the Lord he will keep you safe. If you believe what you have posted then you shall not fear but obey the scriptures here and demonstrate your faith to all of us.
Your theology suggests that they are all deceived, because in annuls their commands. Their direct and clear commands become inane suggestions to you. That is a denial of scripture, or an inference that these apostles are lying.
Nonsense!!
Here is what I said, the words that you are responding to:
What about Paul
[FONT="]Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.[/FONT]
--The command is to stand against the wiles of the devil. That is now, in real time. He is not defeated. He is the god of this world. He roams about as a roaring lion. He seeks to devour those whom he can. That is not speaking of the unsaved, but of Christians.
Eph.6:11 is from Paul and is in Ephesians, obviously.
"The god of this world is a quote from 2Cor.4:4.
"Roaming about as a roaring lion comes from 1Pet.5:8, and thus is not from Paul at all.
These verses that you used to refute the above are from 1Cor.5 and have nothing to do with the scripture I posted. They have to do with church discipline, the discipline of a church member who committed incest. Talking about taking scripture out of context!!!!!!
You sound like a Catholic? Are you sure you have left it?
We take the scripture and resist the devil in the power of the Spirit.
How did Christ resist Satan? By using the Word of God each and every time.
Christ himself was tempted of Satan for forty days and nights. He wasn't defeated then either.
Christ shared it. So did all the apostles. I am in good company.
You interpret scripture given through books of doctrine through a an apocryphal book. Something is obviously wrong with your interpretation, or method or lack thereof.
Yes it was to John. It was of things to come, as Jesus said it was to come. He made that clear in the first chapter.
The seven churches are in chapters two and three. That is which was present. The chapters you are quoting from are in the future from John's time, and still future from ours.
It is apparent you don't know how to tell time.
42 months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 years, they all have the same meaning. They are half of a seven year period--The Great Tribulation which has not happened yet. Yet these terms are used over and over again.
Perhaps you are using the wrong commentaries.
I am not wrong about any of those errors. There are many backslidden Christians that are not living for the Lord. It is unfortunate but true. Lot was one such person.
I do see what others see, but you don't.
DHK.
we all know who it was written to.The point is they had power over satan and demonic influence...that is the point.
[/I]
yes blinded the minds of those who believe not.
You need to get out of your little tight fundy box and get out more theologically.
The term means of grace is a solid term speaking of God's grace to us in sanctification. Prayer, preaching, bible study, fellowship. the Lord's Supper are all means of grace none of which are RC in origin. That is another sad attempt to distract from the discussion that you are losing.
the only thing wrong is you are not understanding the theological ideas expressed here by me, or the other commentators...Walvoord and Zuck were anemic on Amos 9...they totally missed it's use in acts 9...especially the last paragraph.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
shortly come to pass...opps...you missed that didn't you?
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter
this includes the whole age.....
So...I do not know how to tell time now. really 3.5 years..half of the 7 yr period. Three times I have already explained this to you in reference to Daniel 9.....do you want me to embarrass you and find where I explained this to you weeks ago ,and how this statement makes you look clown like by posting this???
You cannot help yourself evidently...I have asked you not to do this...in this post alone....you say I disregard scripture,I cannot tell time,I cannot interpret scripture,etc...I guess when your ideas are failing you have no where else to go.
It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant].
In the bible a backslider was an apostate.....period. Lot was called a just man.
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
let the reader decide:thumbs:
we all know who it was written to.The point is they had power over satan and demonic influence...that is the point.
Your wrong view suggests that to you.I have over 8000 posts here none of which denies scripture. This is not worthy of a response.
[/I]
yes blinded the minds of those who believe not.
Nice try DHK....nothing is out of context.I know the context genius....that is exactly why I used it. The discipline of this pervert was to put him outside the church....giving him over to.....SATAN......that is who we are discussing...satan
You need to get out of your little tight fundy box and get out more theologically.
The term means of grace is a solid term speaking of God's grace to us in sanctification. Prayer, preaching, bible study, fellowship. the Lord's Supper are all means of grace none of which are RC in origin. That is another sad attempt to distract from the discussion that you are losing.
the only thing wrong is you are not understanding the theological ideas expressed here by me, or the other commentators...Walvoord and Zuck were anemic on Amos 9...they totally missed it's use in acts 9...especially the last paragraph.
.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
shortly come to pass...opps...you missed that didn't you?
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter
this includes the whole age.....
So...I do not know how to tell time now. really 3.5 years..half of the 7 yr period. Three times I have already explained this to you in reference to Daniel 9.....do you want me to embarrass you and find where I explained this to you weeks ago ,and how this statement makes you look clown like by posting this???
You cannot help yourself evidently...I have asked you not to do this...in this post alone....you say I disregard scripture,I cannot tell time,I cannot interpret scripture,etc...I guess when your ideas are failing you have no where else to go.
It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant].
or the correct ones which you ignore.
.
In the bible a backslider was an apostate.....period. Lot was called a just man.
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
let the reader decide:thumbs:
DHK,
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
You have no biblical case or truth here!
What verse says this about Lot??? The bible does not, however your mighty eisegesis might have...lol...show the verse that uses backslider [apostate] for Lot;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
You have no biblical case or truth here!
DHK,
I said;
It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant].
you replied;
Mt 21 is not a denial of the second coming...it is what happened at his first coming...
The King came to Zion....they rejected Him...He rejected them-
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
This is what happened at the first coming....do you ever get anything right ? My statement was about the first coming.
I said;
It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant].
you replied;
Mt 21 is not a denial of the second coming...it is what happened at his first coming...
The King came to Zion....they rejected Him...He rejected them-
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
This is what happened at the first coming....do you ever get anything right ? My statement was about the first coming.
The church is present all through revelation.
I do not doubt these men are Godly scholars.......they are wrong here however,as you are also.
A meaningless opinion. Demonstrate it through Scripture. There is no church mentioned in the book of Revelation past chapter three. In chapters two and three there are seven churches mentioned, but after that there are none. The Great Tribulation begins with chapter six and ends in chapter 19. There is no church there. If you think there is prove it.
You are not going far enough back in the conversation.
What were you responding to when you said:
It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant].
I had just said:
The Great Tribulation has not happened yet.
Then you said:
"It happened to Israel when they rejected Jesus...he rejected them{except for the elect remnant]."
--Which is complete and utter nonsense!That which is written in Rev.6-19 is the wrath of God against the ungodly world, not against Israel. It is against the world, not one city. In it Israel gets saved, not destroyed. In the Tribulation Jesus comes for the Jews, a very visible coming described in chapter 19. That has never happened before.
Therefore, for you to say it happened to Israel is to deny the coming of Christ for that is what is described in chapter 19 when Christ comes to deliver the Jews. The Jews are not destroyed they are delivered at the coming of Christ. This is what you are denying.
DHK
The great tribulation had not quite happened when MT 20-25 was written...That is why jesus was giving a final warning to apostate Israel who was busy rejecting Him and bringing the wrath of God upon themselves....
let me help you see what you do not see...
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
In the passage Jesus clearly identifies who the wrath of God is coming upon...that generation he spoke to....apostate harlot Israel....
the temple was there
the holy place was there
the temple was destroyed
the antichrist was there
the abomination of desolation took place....
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate[/COLOR][/SIZE].
no need to rebuild a physical temple
no need to look behind every bush to see the antichrist
no need for animals to be slain
no need for a "revived roman empire"
no need to look for a red heifer
no need to break the covenant in 3.5 yrs
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
only in those little novels you read....leave behind the left behind series.
Paul does not agree with you.
The great tribulation had not quite happened when MT 20-25 was written...That is why jesus was giving a final warning to apostate Israel who was busy rejecting Him and bringing the wrath of God upon themselves....
let me help you see what you do not see...
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
In the passage Jesus clearly identifies who the wrath of God is coming upon...that generation he spoke to....apostate harlot Israel....
the temple was there
the holy place was there
the temple was destroyed
the antichrist was there
the abomination of desolation took place....
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate[/COLOR][/SIZE].
no need to rebuild a physical temple
no need to look behind every bush to see the antichrist
no need for animals to be slain
no need for a "revived roman empire"
no need to look for a red heifer
no need to break the covenant in 3.5 yrs
.
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
only in those little novels you read....leave behind the left behind series.
Paul does not agree with you.
DHK [QUOTE said:
Sure...I can do that.....as soon as you produce your phantom verse about LOT,
still cannot find it...ehh:laugh::laugh: