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- Thread starter alexander284
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The RCC is Christian but they cursed Protestants to hell in Trent and they never have rescinded it.
alexander284
Well-Known Member
What is the RCC?
Roman Catholic Church
alexander284
Well-Known Member
Oh! Duuuuuh! Lol I guess that only confirms my "lack of knowledge" (i.e ignorance of the subject).
alexander284
Well-Known Member
Alex is big brain. Practically catholicI think its hipper to defend when your not catholic.
At the risk of sounding stupid, what do you mean when you say, "it's hipper to defend when you're not Catholic?"
Hollow Man
Active Member
That's not a misconception. The Council of Trent declares anyone who believes the Gospel's teaching that we are not saved by works "anathema".
What's more, CCC1475 tells us that Catholics have to go to the mythical land of Purgatory to expiate their own sin. Expiating your own sin is the workiest work there is.
You can call it "veneration" all you like. But bowing in prayer, praying to, and ascribing characteristics the Bible says belong only to God, is worship.
And it's not just Mary, either. Catholics also pray to other dead people and to angels. I remember when we lived in New Jersey, the Padro Pio statue on Rt 47 was always packed with pagans praying to him.
Again not misconceptions. One can't be born again by following a false gospel, and one cannot be a Christian if they hold to so many heresies as the Catholic Cult.
Does the phase "ex ecclesia nulla salas" ring a bell?[/quote][/quote]
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Hollow Man
Active Member
atpollard said:
OK. I'll bite: How were you saved by hearing a false gospel?
Okay - Walt - lets clear this up
What does a Catholic have to do:
A) avoid purgatory
B) in order to get to heaven
C) know he would never loose his salvation
atpollard
Well-Known Member
This thread has proven more useful than I had expected when I first saw it.
The charge that the Catholic Church teaches a FALSE gospel is not true. The claim that the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches teach the same gospel is also not quite true.
There are those that argue that one or the other is a false gospel, making this a difference rising to the level of heresy. I strongly disagree with that characterization based upon my personal experience. However, I believe that is is fair to describe the Catholic and Protestant views of the gospel, the Church and salvation as heterodox to one another.
The differences are real and they are significant and they are worth defending and celebrating (within each community) but they do not prevent people from either tradition from KNOWING Jesus Christ, being His sheep, and ... therefore ... part of THE CHURCH.
One final thought, this topic was created as an invitation to Catholics to explain something. Baptists (including myself) should really post respectfully on this particular topic, even when disagreeing or challenging some claim by a Catholic that we feel is untrue, because on this “FOR CATHOLICS ONLY” topic, we are the guests and should behave accordingly.
The charge that the Catholic Church teaches a FALSE gospel is not true. The claim that the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches teach the same gospel is also not quite true.
There are those that argue that one or the other is a false gospel, making this a difference rising to the level of heresy. I strongly disagree with that characterization based upon my personal experience. However, I believe that is is fair to describe the Catholic and Protestant views of the gospel, the Church and salvation as heterodox to one another.
The differences are real and they are significant and they are worth defending and celebrating (within each community) but they do not prevent people from either tradition from KNOWING Jesus Christ, being His sheep, and ... therefore ... part of THE CHURCH.
One final thought, this topic was created as an invitation to Catholics to explain something. Baptists (including myself) should really post respectfully on this particular topic, even when disagreeing or challenging some claim by a Catholic that we feel is untrue, because on this “FOR CATHOLICS ONLY” topic, we are the guests and should behave accordingly.
Hollow Man
Active Member
atpollard said:
Then you don't know the Gospel.
Go read the "Anathema" portion of the Council of Trent. They pronounce a curse on anyone who believes the Gospel.
Yes. To say works are required for salvation, that Christ's atonement was insufficient, and that sinners must go to Purgatory to expiate their own sins, is heresy.
A false gospel cannot bring about a real knowledge of Christ.
Where the difference lies (and coincidentally the similarities as well) is in whether a person has a synergist view of salvation or a monergist view of salvation. Much of protestantism is synergist and all of RCC and Orthodox Church are synergist, meaning man and God work together to be saved. Monergism is often offensive to the synergist as it points out human pride. Synergism is often offensive to the monergist as it takes away from the honor due to God in salvation. This divide has been around since the day of the Apostles and I doubt it will end until the Day of the Lord.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
A group of Catholic Charismatic laity (non priests) told me that God and Jesus were real. They acted as if they really believed that this “invisible unicorn” was real. They prayed to Jesus to heal things like cancer or deal with real problems like an upcoming court date. Over the course of a year of trying to figure out if they really were talking to the CREATOR, or just needed their meds adjusted, I concluded that there was a correlation between “Prayer Requests” made and “Praise Reports” for prayers answered far in excess of simple statistical random chance. Thus it was more likely than not that God really existed and that these people were, in fact, communicating with Him.
That moved me from Nihilistic Atheist to inquiring Agnostic. God used the scripture they read and the Jesus they lived for and prayed to to communicate the “gospel” (good news) that God could forgive my sin, too. That God loved me, too. That I could repent and be reborn, too.
That was a marked contrast to the 22 Christmas and Eater services at Methodist and Presbyterian mega churches that I had endured as a child. That was a far different lesson than the baby born in a manger, innocent man crucified, Easter bunny, Santa Claus, rudolf the red nosed reindeer, little drummer boy, colored eggs, chocolate rabbits, hypocrites all dressed to impress one another, color pictures of Noah leading animals onto an Ark, color pictures of Jesus saying “let the children come to me” ... all of which led me to abandon the fairy tale god along with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.
For a former Atheist, NOTHING matters more than truth. The fact is that I have attended a LOT of different denominational churches over the years, and there are wheat and tares in EVERY church building (the Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist churches are no exception).
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Then please, for the sake of my eternal destiny ... tell me the true Gospel!
I actually have read the council of Trent. I have also read the Synod of Dort. “Anathema” was a popular word among councils.
Hollow Man
Active Member
"God is real" isn't the Gospel. It's just an acknowledgement of the obvious.
The difference is that Southern Baptist Churches are well within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy. The Catholic Cult is not.
Hollow Man
Active Member
Membership in the Catholic Cult can't save you.
Fealty to the pope can't save you.
Adherence to Catholic "sacraments" can't save you.
Prayer to the dead can't save you.
Confession can't save you.
Purgatory can't save you.
Nothing in the Catholic "gospel" can save you. It's just an endless series of works that can be undone at any time.
I'm hoping you're smart enough to understand that it isn't the use of the word, "anathema" that's the issue, but what the word is applied to. Hoping, but not very confident.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So all Methodists and Church of God and General Baptist’s are heretics, too.
They believe that one must maintain their own faith or loose their salvation (synergism).
Is that your belief?
James claims that works are required for salvation. The issue is not the existence of good works (obedience), everyone believes that the saved obey God, but the salvific function of those works ... which is for GOD to decide, not man.
Everyone claims that Jesus atonement is the only payment for sin. The issue of who Jesus applied that atonement to and how is for GOD to decide, not man.
What happens between death and glorification is for GOD to decide, not man. Any speculation, whether right or wrong, does not control what God will do.
The common theme here is that all of these things that YOU choose to make your business are really GOD’s business and man’s errors in understanding do not impact God’s reality.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
WHAT SORT OF A CHRISTIAN ARE YOU?
You tell a man that he doesn’t really know the true gospel.
That man BEGS you for the TRUE GOSPEL.
You provide a list of what cannot save me and leave me damned!
If I go to HELL not knowing the TRUE GOSPEL, then this day will stand as condemnation against you. I begged you for the truth, I begged you to save me ... and you refused. You deliberately left me to perish in my sins and “false gospel”.
[Matthew 25:41-46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I find most Protestants think the Gospel = their doctrine of justification by faith alone
Actually, about half the Baptists on this forum accuses the other half of the Baptists of this. You should look at the Calvinism vs. Arminianism section. At least a quarter of the Baptists on this forum would not welcome me at their church.
I don't know why Catholics think they are being singled-out in this regard.
About half the Baptists on this forum consider grace to be the most important part in determining salvation - not faith.
I don't know why Catholics think they are being singled-out in this regard.
This is the Catholic's fault. When I point blank asked what you believe about Mary, all the Catholics refused to answer. If you don't share what your beliefs are, don't blame other people if they get it wrong.
This is actually an accusation from former Catholics. Most Baptists would think that you consider the statues to be symbolic like the grape juice and crackers.
Once again, former Catholics are the ones who called you Papists. Baptists I know disagree with the Pope's special revelation.
There are nuts on this forum, but Baptists are very democratic and allow quite a bit of speech on their forum.
I think the accusation in the post you're talking about was against everyone - including Baptists and Protestants. Remember - Seventh-day-Adventist is considered a divergent sect of Christianity. No one considers them Protestant.
Baptists believe they have a direct line to Jesus. Most just consider it silly to talk to a dead person to plead with Jesus when one can just simply plead with Jesus. Many here believe that the prayer only changes them and is used to put themselves in the right frame of mind and make them feel better. I might be the only one on the forum who believes that I can convince God to do something that he wasn't already going to do.
About half the Catholics I walk up to and ask if they are "born again" - say no. So you have a problem with your fellow Catholics - not me.
Same thing. Most want to be called Catholic.
Not sure what you are talking about here.
On a side note, I went to a Lutheran University, so I know that my traditional Baptist upbringing is not anything like the Protestants. However, there are a disproportionate number of reformed and 5-pointer Baptists on this forum who do consider themselves to be protestant.
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