For Clarification...

[HankD]

CJC there are many flavors of each of these theologies.

Personally there are too conflicts and tensions in both which cannot be explained by human reasoning for my full acceptance.

The proof - this debate has been going on here at the BB since day 1 (or shortly thereafter) and at least for the 16 years I have been posting.
It was somewhat entertaining but folks have run out things to say of any further enlightenment on these subjects.

Plus it gets a little to hot for me in this kitchen.

HankD

 

[CJC]

So CJC, are you still confused after 4 pages of attempts of the definitions of C and A?

HankD

No, not any longer, lol.

I had done a bit of research, mostly on Calvinism and had gotten what I was looking for.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Desire is not same as will!

The word "would" is a form of the word "will" too. Was it "will" or was it "desire", in the following?

Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gatherher brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[TCassidy]

The word "would" is a form of the word "will" too. Was it "will" or was it "desire", in the following?

Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gatherher brood under her wings, and ye would not!

"It is assumed by Arminian writers that 'Jerusalem' represents individual Jews who are, therefore, capable of resisting the work and will of Christ. But upon what warrant do we leap from 'Jerusalem' to 'individual Jews'? The context would not lead us to conclude that this is to be taken in a universal sense. Jesus is condemning the Jewish leaders, and it is to them that He refers here. This is clearly seen in that:

It is to the leaders that God sent prophets;
It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and those sent to them;
Jesus speaks of 'your children,' differentiating those to whom He is speaking from those that the Lord desired to gather together.
The context refers to the Jewish leaders, scribes and Pharisees.

A vitally important point to make here is that the ones the Lord desired to gather are not the ones who 'were not willing'! Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children that they, the leaders, would not allow Him to 'gather.' Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children ... The 'children' of the leaders would be Jews who were hindered by the Jewish leaders from hearing Christ. The 'you would not' then is referring to the same men indicated by the context: the Jewish leaders who 'were unwilling' to allow those under their authority to hear the proclamation of the Christ. This verse, then, is speaking to the same issues raised earlier in Matthew 23:13" (The Potter's Freedom [Amityville, NY: Calvary Press, 2000], pp. 137-138; italics White's).
Quotes on Matthew 23:37

 

[Mr. Davis]

Utilyan ended his post with this:

Keep this line in mind: Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 Jn 4:11)

Love you 'Ole Utilyan!

 

[Mr. Davis]

Utilyan wrote,

Nope, I do good works for free. God can keep the salvation.

*** Salvation was very costly. Your ingratitude is deplorable!

*** "God calls me elect. Do you know more than He?"

Oh yeah? You are a prophet now! What did he say?

*** He chose us from before the foundation of the world, predestined
to be adopted into Christ's family (Ephesians 1:4-5, paraphrased).

*** Stop trying to earn salvation! Accept it as a Divine gift. You can NEVER
merit God's favor.

 

[Yeshua1]

Repair the context then. Who is he challenging?

"You must prioritize your good works to secure salvation."

Nope, I do good works for free. God can keep the salvation.

Not everyone is a gold digger.



"By no means! God calls me elect. Do you know more than He?"

Oh yeah? You are a prophet now! What did he say?

Scripture says we need to test you out:
(i'd shove the whole chapter of 1 John 4)

1 john 4

1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.



1 John 4
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.



1 John 4

20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

If a child you don't know ask "Does God love me?" whats the answer?

Does God love every child on earth?

Keep this line in mind: 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Does God love all people equally?

 

[Yeshua1]

Name one Desire of God that is not God's Will.

That all would come to repentance and faith in jesus and get saved!

 

[utilyan]

That all would come to repentance and faith in jesus and get saved!

Well what God wants I want too. I don't think he will fail to get what he desires, do you?

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan ended his post with this:

Keep this line in mind: Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 Jn 4:11)

Love you 'Ole Utilyan!

Well that qualifies me for elect. Who don't you love?

 

[utilyan]

Does God love all people equally?

Yes, God is not a respecter of persons.

James 2

9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.


Acts 10

34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


No good parent loves one child more then another. But that the same time they will leave 99 to look for a lost one.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Well that qualifies me for elect. Who don't you love?

You then are saved forever. Nothing you do can ever change that.

I do not love Satan and his demons.

Christ says to love all humans, including our enemies. But
not all are called. Only those foreknown by God.

Some will receive mercy, the rest His justice; there is no injustice with God.

God IS a respecter of persons. The non-elect are rejected.

How does one KNOW he is elect?

Loving God is true in both Arminianism and Calvinism.

But the elect one has assurance from God that He has decreed
their salvation.

 

[CJC]

Were there Gentiles predestined before Steven was Martyred?

Does being "Elected" cause man to sin through arrogance/pride? Because there is a bunch flying around in this thread.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well what God wants I want too. I don't think he will fail to get what he desires, do you?

Yes, if that is not part of His Will!

 

[TCassidy]

Does being "Elected" cause man to sin through arrogance/pride? Because there is a bunch flying around in this thread.

No, that would be the non-elect. Those who are of their father the devil.

 

[Yeshua1]

You then are saved forever. Nothing you do can ever change that.

I do not love Satan and his demons.

Christ says to love all humans, including our enemies. But
not all are called. Only those foreknown by God.

Some will receive mercy, the rest His justice; there is no injustice with God.

God IS a respecter of persons. The non-elect are rejected.

How does one KNOW he is elect?

Loving God is true in both Arminianism and Calvinism.

But the elect one has assurance from God that He has decreed
their salvation.

Think paul mentions in Romans about how God saves some for His glory, and yet also has some as instruments He uses, that are objects of wrath like Pharaoh, correct?

 

[TCassidy]

Think paul mentions in Romans about how God saves some for His glory, and yet also has some as instruments He uses, that are objects of wrath like Pharaoh, correct?

Scripture?

 

[Mr. Davis]

I had done a bit of research, mostly on Calvinism and had gotten what I was looking for.

Don't be surprised. Tyndale1946 (Glen) says that it can get heated on this A / C forum. Sometimes I can be curt. But there is no hatred in my heart for my fellow brothers in Christ.

I have told you about the elect and TCassidy has told you about the non-elect.

What did you discover in your research about Calvinism?

 

[HankD]

Think paul mentions in Romans about how God saves some for His glory, and yet also has some as instruments He uses, that are objects of wrath like Pharaoh, correct?

Scripture?

This passage came to mind, don't know why since it doesn't directly address your statement Y.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

HankD

 

[tyndale1946]

Were there Gentiles predestined before Steven was Martyred?

Does being "Elected" cause man to sin through arrogance/pride? Because there is a bunch flying around in this thread.

The whole family of God was predestined before Steven was martyred... The problem that brethren on here that don't understand the doctrine of election is the election according to scripture is according to Gods love and Gods love only... There is only one condition for election and it is not conditional on the one elected... We were given in Christ Jesus according to the word of God before the foundation of the world.
Does being "Elected" cause man to sin through arrogance/pride?... We are all sinful beings and just because we are saved, does not excuse our sin nature, as it is a condition that causes the action, and not the other way around... There is a constant warfare, and you either bow to the will of the Spirit, or to the will of the flesh... You can't serve two masters, as scripture state... Lets hear the Apostle Paul on both these matters... Brother Glen

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.