For Clarification...

[Yeshua1]

Scripture?

Romans 9:22

 

[The Archangel]

Let me get this straight... You say the following:

First I disagree with the given definition. Both are based on Calvinist presupposition. Second the label is a label not a definition.

I don't want your labels. if you are going to describe what I believe then you need to do it the way I do or your description is in error.

And then you say:

You have asked a question that often gets defined in different ways by different people. I will say that Calvinism in short believes God elects some to be saved and He elects some to not be saved. God "effectually" saves the elect with not option to choose. The choosing is imposed on the elect.

Arminianism believes that salvation is genuinely offered to everyone and that people have the freedom to choose to accept it or not. They also believe one can lose their salvation.

The latter is often a catch all label for Calvinists for anyone who does not believe as they do.

The truth is that you may fall into one category or the other or you may not identify with either.

This is not a black and white issue.

And then you responded to another poster taking issue with your assessment:

I'm sorry but the idea that there is a general call and an effectual call is exactly the same thing.

How does that work? You think it's fine to label the Calvinists (wrongly, I might add) here when you yourself decry it when you are labeled by Calvinists (and insist you've been labeled wrongly)?! I'll ask again: How does that work?!

It's clear that you want your cake and eat it too... And, it's also clear that you're not willing to give the grace you so priggishly demand from others.

The Archangel

 

[HankD]

Let me get this straight... You say the following:

And then you say:

And then you responded to another poster taking issue with your assessment:

How does that work? You think it's fine to label the Calvinists (wrongly, I might add) here when you yourself decry it when you are labeled by Calvinists (and insist you've been labeled wrongly)?! I'll ask again: How does that work?!

It's clear that you want your cake and eat it too... And, it's also clear that you're not willing to give the grace you so priggishly demand from others.

The Archangel

if we thought about it for a few minutes, I don't think any of us would appreciate labels because after thinking about it we would probably find disagreements with the full expression of the label.

There are some exceptions: e.g. Christian, Trinitarian...

Even the Trinitarian label - we follow the Latin church vs the Eastern Orthodox on some fine tuning points concerning the Trinity (procession of the Holy Spirit...). Then there is the modalism error.

It's not wrong IMO to let others know the specifics of the where, what and how we differ or to be critical on a debate forum in a general way to labels.

Just be prepared for rebuttal.


HankD

 

[The Archangel]

if we thought about it for a few minutes, I don't think any of us would appreciate labels because after thinking about it we would probably find disagreements with the full expression of the label.

There are some exceptions: e.g. Christian, Trinitarian...

Even the Trinitarian label - we follow the Latin church vs the Eastern Orthodox on some fine tuning points concerning the Trinity (procession of the Holy Spirit...). Then there is the modalism error.

It's not wrong IMO to let others know the specifics of the where, what and how we differ or to be critical on a debate forum in a general way to labels.

Just be prepared for rebuttal.


HankD

I don't disagree. The issue here, though, is Revmitchell bucking hard at the use of labels for him because of the inaccuracy, but then insisting on applying labels to others despite the inaccuracy.

There are good people here, on both sides of the debate, who don't fit 100% with the Arminian or Calvinist label. I think it is laughable and so intellectually dishonest when some one tries to tell us Calvinists what we believe. For instance, we Calvinists believe in a general call to salvation, yet many Arminians will respond as Revmitchell did, saying "no you don't" or "the effectual call and the general call are the same thing," which is a label-driven response. Then, when a label is applied to those same people there's an outcry of "injustice."

This is but one reason why we keep on talking past each other.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

if we thought about it for a few minutes, I don't think any of us would appreciate labels because after thinking about it we would probably find disagreements with the full expression of the label.

There are some exceptions: e.g. Christian, Trinitarian...

Even the Trinitarian label - we follow the Latin church vs the Eastern Orthodox on some fine tuning points concerning the Trinity (procession of the Holy Spirit...). Then there is the modalism error.

It's not wrong IMO to let others know the specifics of the where, what and how we differ or to be critical on a debate forum in a general way to labels.

Just be prepared for rebuttal.


HankD

Except that when some feel that their theology is being mislabeled and misapplied, and yet the definition being used to describe it is according to agreed upon theological terms...

Why call ourselves baptists then?

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't disagree. The issue here, though, is Revmitchell bucking hard at the use of labels for him because of the inaccuracy, but then insisting on applying labels to others despite the inaccuracy.

There are good people here, on both sides of the debate, who don't fit 100% with the Arminian or Calvinist label. I think it is laughable and so intellectually dishonest when some one tries to tell us Calvinists what we believe. For instance, we Calvinists believe in a general call to salvation, yet many Arminians will respond as Revmitchell did, saying "no you don't" or "the effectual call and the general call are the same thing," which is a label-driven response. Then, when a label is applied to those same people there's an outcry of "injustice."

This is but one reason why we keep on talking past each other.

The Archangel

One problem is discussions between cals and others is that we never seem to be really able to get to what happened to us in the Fall, and what is free will per the Bible?

 

[HankD]

One problem is discussions between cals and others is that we never seem to be really able to get to what happened to us in the Fall,

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

and what is free will per the Bible?

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

HankD

Good, so those being offered and accepting the water are those saved, correct?

 

[HankD]

Good, so those being offered and accepting the water are those saved, correct?

Yes all are invited.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes all are invited.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

HankD

The offer is sincere, but only those who are the elect will receive it.

 

[HankD]

The offer is sincere, but only those who are the elect will receive it.

And can you tell who they are before they receive Him?

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

And can you tell who they are before they receive Him?

HankD

No, for their accepting Jesus proves that they are part of that group!

 

[HankD]

No, for their accepting Jesus proves that they are part of that group!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The rebirth proves we are part of that group.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

The rebirth proves we are part of that group.

How?

 

[HankD]

How?

Ye must be born again.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Ye must be born again.

Yes, but how is that proven?

 

[HankD]

No, for their accepting Jesus proves that they are part of that group!

I was responding to Y - just "accepting" Jesus is not a guarantee being part of that group (earlier defined as the "elect").
It takes accepting and the rebirth (or whatever order one sees it from scripture).

Yes, but how is that proven?

by the scripture
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


HankD

 

[TCassidy]

by the scripture

Yes, we know what scripture says, but how do we prove we are born again?

 

[HankD]

Yes, we know what scripture says, but how do we prove we are born again?

Personally I can't go beyond what scripture says. I have the Word of God:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The "how" you are alluding seems to me then concerned with others.
Other Christians - well a profession of faith is the only way i can think to prove to others that I am born again.

Non-Christians - well all i can do is let them know of my relationship with the Son of God as my Lord and Savior.

Faith - Faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel expressed and demonstrated is the best way to prove to others that I am born again.

Yes I believe that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh and His shed blood, His death burial and resurrection were for my salvation by grace through faith.

Evidences
Faith expressed and demonstrated by agape love along with a testimony of salvation and obedience to the will of God.
Conviction of sin: I continually examine myself asking the Spirit of God to enlighten me concerning my sins.
Acknowledgement of sins.
Reconciliation with those I have sinned against.
The love of His word.
Seeking fellowship with like minded children of God.
Worship. Prayer. Giving, etc, etc...

Works? Yes, I have good works but they didn't and can't save me (Thank the LORD).

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

The "how" you are alluding seems to me then concerned with others.
Other Christians - well a profession of faith is the only way i can think to prove to others that I am born again.

There's what I was looking for. The only evidence we have is entirely subjective. We, in effect, must take a persons word for it. A credible testimony of faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.

And that is where we so often fall flat. We spend time looking for something we may not recognize rather than listening for a testimony.