For God so loved the world

[King James Bond]

Hello everybody,

Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people.

We all know God can love.

So many use "For God so loved the world" in an attempt to conclude that God loves all people exactly the same head to head and rejects none.

They do not use the entire passage in context and they forget to conclude it is speaking of "believers".

He does not love every person head to head and it can be proven. I dont need to prove God has hated millions or billions of people.

If I can show with Scripture that God has hated just one person, it is proof that "whole world" does not mean every person head to head.

The question that I would ask is this;

For what reason did God love Jacob and hate Esau?

The answer is a simple one........it is His mercy as sovereign grace!

That is the answer!

It is because God chose to love one and not the other.

It is because God made a choice before they were even born.

Sounds a little hard to take does it? Well it is truth.

I will post Scripture showing this;

for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

This shows that before they were born and had any time to do anything at all, good or bad.....God planned his favor.

Most people (even many that profess to be Christians) will say things like; Thats not right, God is righteous!"....."Thats not fair!"....."I will not worship a God that does that!"....."How can God blame people for anything if they are His design?".....As well as all types of other things.

Scripture continues with;

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

For all you free-willers out there that put so much faith, trust, and confidence in your wills, your hearts, your power, and your own wisdom......look at what it says;

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

He softens people, and He hardens people!

Some people have said to me....."your God sounds like a monster"....."well if thats the case, He cant fault us"!

I would be very careful on calling God a monster if I were you!

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

I have proven that God hated Esau. The text spoke also of Pharoah.

This is proof that God does not love all people exactly the same.

It is truth. Push it away or embrace it!

"My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. And all of them, since they are mine, belong to you; and you have given them back to me, so they are my glory! John 17:9-10

May the grace of God grant you all the will to embrace His truth!

God bless, KJB

 

[Wes Outwest]

KJB,
Good explanation, but had God not sent Jesus to the world, and Jesus' message to the world, to all mankind is that, "if you believe in me you shall have everlasting life", there would have been no atonement for sin that satisfied God the Father, and no man would receive everlasting life. God's love for mankind would not have been demonstrated and those that God loves (those with Faith in him) could not be saved.

It was God's gift to the world, Jesus, who through atoning for sin, made it possible for the "whosoever's" of John 3:16 to have everlasting life through Faith Alone. It was in God's Love Gift to mankind, Jesus' life, that God demonstrated his love for mankind generally speaking.

Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life. But Generally God loves ALL mankind. And, NO, atonement does not save all mankind, and indeed does not save even one man. All it did was remove the death penalty of sin from mankind...ALL mankind. So Revelation 20:14,15 rings true because there is no death penalty for sinners, only for unbelievers, those whose names are not found in the book of life.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life.

are there any exceptions to this statement?

 

[whetstone]

EXCELLENT post KJB. Well said!

 

[Wes Outwest]

KJB,
What I don't understand is that you take one rather extreme example, dealing with two nations, to tell us that God treats the common man in the same way that he treated Jacob and Esau, the father's of nations.

Jesus was not sent to the heads of state, he was sent to the common man. And indeed scriptures tell us that the Gospel message was made simple to confound the wise. And that God raises up those who are rulers and kings.

Calvinism's doctrine of election and or soverignty of God, is based on a false premise by applying the events of Jacob and Esau, and those dealing with the Heads of state, to man in general.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life.

are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at?

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life.

are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at? </font>[/QUOTE]You made an absolute statement that was self defeating.

Just like your other statement 'truth is relative' which means your statement may or may not be true.

 

[just-want-peace]

There are many verses that SEEM to point to predestination; IE the will of man is mostly an illusion!

There are also many that point to man being the deciding factor in salvation/life; IE man decides whether to become a Christian or no, with minimal or no “interference” from God!

My problem, is those who choose either aspect of God and claim absolute knowledge of God’s meaning to the exclusion of everything contrary to that view!

Perhaps I’m just not educated in the dissection of God’s word enough to understand such a philosophy.

If I see an apparent conflict in my understanding of two “opposing” interpretations of the Word, I have enough sense to acknowledge that there is something lacking in my understanding, not that “I’m right and all other views are wrong”!

Some people’s egos are so big, though, that they will defend “to the death” their views and, in the process (whether subconsciously or no, I know not) call God a liar when supposedly contradicting scripture is offered!

I have my personal beliefs concerning these “questionable areas”, but I certainly do not consider myself an authority of my point of view and just discard those scriptures that SEEM to contradict MY PERSONAL BELIEF!

Those that do so (discard the “contradictory" scripture), do so challenging the authority of God IMNSHO, and are playing with spiritual fire!

It’s not a disaster or a shame to admit that your knowledge of the scripture is incomplete.

I can appreciate one holding a staunch view, but to be so dogmatic just shows either your pride, stubbornness, or being educated beyond your intelligence.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
I can appreciate one holding a staunch view, but to be so dogmatic just shows either your pride, stubbornness, or being educated beyond your intelligence.

Keep in mind that not everyone agrees with your view of what the extremes are. The way most Calvinists see it:

Hyper Calvinism is on the far left
Calvinism is in the middle
Arminianism is on the far right

 

[King James Bond]

Wes,Outwest

You are correct the example is extreme, but nevertheless it is true! Paul gives it to show us that in and of ourselves we are as nothing in regard to salvation.

It is the perfect, extreme, and true example of what "grace" is.

People are called to turn to Christ. Repent. God demands that people do.

The demand does not imply that people are willing or have the capability to do so.

It is the same as with His laws. God demands that people keep all of His laws. To disobey one law is the same as breaking them all. Those who do not keep all of the law, are cursed.

Now just because God has demanded all people not to lie it does not imply that all people are not liars and do not willingly lie.

No one will be made right by keeping the law even though they are commanded to keep it all.

The natural man rejects God, God's laws, and anything of real truth. The truth sets free and men reject it. Why? Because our hearts are evil.

The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart.

If we go to the start of John we will find that the world rejected Jesus Christ.......even His own people. It explains that the ONLY ones in the world that received Him were those born of God.

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The only ones that received Him were "born again" , born of God .....they were not born by human will or human decision.

If it isn't clear enough yet, Jesus clarifies when telling Nicodemus;

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

Nicodemus is baffled just as most people are, but Jesus makes it clear;

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit . You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit ."

There is exists no other option, one MUST be born again. And the Spirit goes as wills, without regard to the will of men.

Do we need it any clearer? Lets see now;

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

It shows here that only "believers" are going to have eternal life. Who are "believers"? Those born again! How were they born again? Was it by human choice or free-will? No...they were born of God.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This says "believers" shall have eternal life.


For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

His Son did not come to condemn, because the entire world already stands condemned.

Is He going to save the whole world? Lets see;

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Only believers are not condemed...who are believers? Those born again and saved by God!

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Jesus Christ said;

"My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. And all of them, since they are mine, belong to you; and you have given them back to me, so they are my glory! John 17:9-10

I hope all of that is helpful, I am sorry it was so long.

God bless and regards, KJB

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life.

are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at? </font>[/QUOTE]You made an absolute statement that was self defeating.

Just like your other statement 'truth is relative' which means your statement may or may not be true. </font>[/QUOTE]Take it the way you will, you always do that anyway.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James Bond:

Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people.

We all know God can love.

So many use "For God so loved the world" in an attempt to conclude that God loves all

The text does not say "God COULD have loved the World".

The text does nto say "God CAN love some people in the world".

The text does not say "God might have loved all the People in the worlld if He had chosen to"

The text says "God so LOVED the WORLD that He GAVE... Yes REALLY!"

This is the model of a loving God engaged in substitutionary atonement NOT asking for "appeasement".

Yes - really!!

Another argument John ALSO makes is "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD - yes REALLY!" 1John 4:14.

Calvinims chokes on these statements about God's mission for the Christ and God's motive of Love.

John also says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me... Yes Really!" John 12:32.

And John says that in the same way God sends the Holy Spirit "to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment...yes Really!" John 16:8

7 ""But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 ""And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

They do not use the entire passage in context and they forget to conclude it is speaking of "believers".

The note in John 3 is not spoken - but a narrative to ALL readers - to ALL mankind. The Bible is read by both the saved and the unsaved... "yes Really!"

And of course the PROOF of this so devastating to Calvinism is God ALSO weeping over the case of the Lost whom many Calvinist claim God could not possibly love!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I will post scriptures showing the Love of God for the lost because this TESTS the conclusion that Calvinism "tries to spin" about God not REALLY loving the World --

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

Prov 24:17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18Or the LORD will see it and be displeased,

Calvinism fails.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not only does Calvinism try to so-spin Romans 9 as to get God not to even care for the lost (and so no grieving/weeping over those He never works for) -- but it also Argues that God does NOT actually work to save them!!

Another faulty conclusion of Calvinism as we see below.

Revew: God's Will for mankind…. Yes Really!

2Peter 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "" Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.''
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.&gt;&gt;

The SCOPE is Global - the WORLD that was destroyed included ALL. The wicked are accusing God of not being able to DESTORY the SAME world He ALREADY destroyed ONCE by a flood. The DESTRUCTION and LOSS of life IS NOT LIMITED to the safety/fate of the ALREADY SAVED. The future destruction is GLOBAL - and will affect ALL left on the PLANET.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The focus is this great list of UNGODLY men that will be destroyed IF God simply shows up on the spot - at that moment and the UNGODLY have no more chance to TURN to God and BE saved. This is again - the obvious part. The text is NOT concerned that the ALREADY SAVED require some delay - but the CURRENTLY LOST need MORE TIME because as it is now - they are already TOAST so he delays.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

In this case the "YOU" that is mentioned ARE among those that USED to be LOST but have been BENEFITED by the DELAY already so far. The texts points to the fact that GOD HIMSELF anticipates that MORE of the LOST to BENEFIT by MORE delay since that is the REASON HE GIVES for the DELAY. (Or more SEAMING delay).

God's WILL for mankind is abundantly clear here - and those who reject this truth about God must find a way to "limit the atonement" AND "limit this statement on His will".
-------------------------------------------

God expends EFFORT to SAVE them - HE SENDS them messages of warning and salvation. At GREAT cost and sacrifice.

Matt 23:
31“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

---------------------------------------

God's PURPOSE FOR THEM is salvation – but those who are ultimately lost reject God’s Purpose for THEM .

Even so - God shows Himself as WORKING for their salvation AND YET they turn.

Luke 7:
28 “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and the £lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
32 “They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
‘The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

=============================================================================

God WORKS to win the LOST that HE KNOWS to be those who would ultimately reject the choice for life!!

Parable of the Landowner

Matt 21:
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?”
41They said* to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”
42Jesus said* to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?


HE would have us BEG the LOST to be saved!!

2Cor 5:18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[BobRyan]

Finally some have so spun this Calvinist idea that "God did NOT so love the WORLD He only loves the FEW of Matt 7" that they have God as the AUTHOR of the sin of Satan and mankind.

But the Bible does not agree with that kind of Calvinism "either".

God does not orchestrate the wicked to rebel against Him. God is NOT the author of SIN!

Jer 32:31 “Indeed this city has been to Me a provocation of My anger and My wrath from the day that they built it, even to this day, so that it should be removed from before My face,
32because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33“They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction.
34“But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
29Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
30Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Luke 7:
34 “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
35 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
36 But the Pharisees and the £lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
37 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
38 “They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’
39 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
‘The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
[/b]

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 9
Solicitude for Israel
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Paul will learn in a minute that God does not actually care for those that are not coming to Christ and neither should he (at least that is what our Calvinist bretheren would have us hope for).

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Paul will learn later in the chapter that God never actually does all that work for those He cares nothing for. Paul will need to pipe down on this point since it appears that God's sovereignly chosen "Holy Nation" and "Royal priesthood" idea did not work. (At least that seems to be what our Calvinist brethren would have us believe).

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Really good save on Paul's part for the Arminian idea - but utter failure for Calvinists - Since Calvinist presume that there are no changes - God's sovereign predestined will is being unfolded in history right on schedule. No failures, [no changes to the arbitrary selection process of election.

By this statement above - that would mean that spiritual Jews are the only ones God was EVER concerned about from the Start. By that logic then (since this still continues to be the case after the cross) then there would be NO CHANGE from the OT to NT system! Given the Calvinist model - this is simply THE system as given by God - "working as designed" so "no change needed" at the cross. (Unless of course Calvinists want to argue that God was designing the failure of his "Chosen" even though they are the "children of the promise" from day one)!!

So how does the Arminian view fare by comparison in this case? Very well indeed since The Arminian view anticipates/allows "changes" based on the failure of God's own elect/chosen/established church dues to free will. Adam and Eve - failed, and there was "a change" to what God had sovereignly started.

Then Israel (the Hebrew nation church sovereignly started by God) "failed" and there was "another change". Yet it is the "faithful" - those that choose belief in God and faith in His promises that remain in all the systems.

9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”

Really good example of foreknowledge here - but a real Calvinist problem since God willed Sarah to have a child and was apparently ALSO willing Sarah to laugh at God over it at the time. Obviously Sarah did NOT of her own free will choose such a thing in the model of Calvinism - since she never had free will to begin with (according to Calvin). At each turn so far - Calvinism is frustrated by the points highlighted.

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”

Good example of God knowing the future. Although I am sure some Calvinists would point this out as God arbitrarily picking Jacob without any reference to the actual choices for obedience vs rebellion in the two men. However the text itself only deals with relationship between the two brothers - not good vs evil or love-vs-hate. The mother is told which Son will be dominant - which one will have the blessing.

13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

Interesting quote of Malachi AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter).

Would have worked MUCH better for Calvinism if that quote had come from something said before the twins were born, as if God has ALREADY decided to hate Esau arbitrarily (instead of not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance). But that is not the source of the quote.

Instead of quoting a pre-birth event for Esau in the book of Genesis - Paul is speaking of the case in Malachi regarding the DESCENDANTS of Esau and Jacob - EDOM and Israel. He shows who each of them has played out their own rebellion or obedience toward God - and then how that has translated into their history. Rather than a pre-birth condemnation of Esau - this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5

Paul appeals to the nature of the fact that God showed past-tense his actions toward the descendants of Esau who were in constant rebellion - and the descendants of Jacob.

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And as Paul “begins” the letter to the Romans – he points out that God does this “without partiality” of ONE instead of ANOTHER. (the “very thing” that Calvinists would accuse God of doing).

Rom 2
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

So it “depends on God who HAS mercy” indeed who “is NOT willing that ANY should Perish” and fortunately God “is not partial” – but rather – is just and fair in salvation towards ALL.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

You just just start posting links to this stuff. You are taking up a lot of space reposting the same stuff over and over again. It doesn't get any more true, which is beside the point, but save the space and just post a link to it. That will help on bandwidth.

 

[King James Bond]

Just-want-peace,

Scripture does point to predestination...that is why it seems that it does!

Show me where man is the deciding factor in salvation with no interference from God.

There may be opposing "perceptions" in what people hold as true.....but truth is truth no matter what people perceive.

The Word of God works on all people.....it is like a fire always at work doing exactly what it is intended to do.

The Word of God does not come back void of its purpose. Never! It is always at work!

The Word of God is like a fire in a furnace.

All people by nature are hardened to the truth.

Some people are like candles and the fire from the furnace melts them when they hear it.

These are the ones that melt and see there is NOTHING in them that is good...these are the ones that understand that if it was not for the sole mercy of God pulling them to Him with power...they would have never chose to come.

These are the ones that say "Only God is good".

These are the people that call out "have mercy on me a worthless wretched sinner"!

These are the people that have been knocked down of all self pride and self-righteousness.

They have been humbled before God!

These are the people that DENY themselves before Jesus Christ!

These are the people that have died to themselves. As far as they are concerned they were dead and are dead, it is Jesus Christ that lives in them!

It is these people that go away justified. It is these people that have been made to know that even their calling out for mercy was inspired by the grace of God.

For we dont even know how to pray properly.....but the Spirit prays for us.

And then there are the others....these are the ones that hear the Word of God and it is still like a fire in a furnace.

The difference is these people are not being softened by the word of God like they are candles. These people are not made of wax, but of clay.

They are subject to the same furnace fire but get harder and harder as clay is supposed to do.

These are the people that will not bend nor give in.

These are the people that have not been brought to nothing......they consider themselves wise, smart, and with good hearts.

These are the people that like to keep credit to themselves and their wise choices in having so much wisdom and such a wonderful nature to choose the right path.

These are the people on one hand claim God has saved them, while on the other hand say God has no power to save any unless they come.

So they have now determined God is not capable of saving sinful men if sinful men do not come to Him.

These are the people who put on a form of godliness, but deny the very power of God that saves.

These are the people that are full of pride and have not melted before God.

They hear that God shows mercy to people by His own sovereign will even though those people were undeserving of mercy.........this makes them cringe and they hate it and God!

These are the people that one day want to stand before God and boast about their good choices!

They want to say "we are saved because we chose you"! We are deserving because we chose correctly!

To these people grace is not even grace.

They work and work and work in their feeble minds in attempts to say they had to do something....anything at all.....one little itsy bitsy thing of their own power to merit salvation.

It is here that they hold on to "human choice and human will" as the basis for their salvation.

It happens to be called "pride" and "self-righteousness".

I can assure you that NNE will boast of anything in Heaven other than God.

For he that wishes to boast should boast ONLY of what the LORD has done!

I hope you are made to see the difference.

God bless and regards, KJB

 

[King James Bond]

Pastor Larry,

All I can say is I concur with you on your point!

I am kind of new here on the forums.

I tried to start a new topic. Was kind of hoping it was not going to happen again.

I am not sure, but I think it is a diversion tactic used to keep people off of concentration.

I would rather have the link not to use! LOL

"for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

God bless Pastor Larry