For God so loved the world

[whatever]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
I tried to start a new topic. Was kind of hoping it was not going to happen again.

I am not sure, but I think it is a diversion tactic used to keep people off of concentration.

It is apparently never going to change. It is easier to mirepresent and mislead and twist others' words and make false accusations than it is to debate issues fairly and with integrity. It is amazing to me how much bearing false witness goes on here "in the name of Christ".

Of course, this has the potential to become a "they do it more than we do" discussion. Posters on both sides do it, and it makes no difference who does it more.

A little unsolicited advice - go back and read posts from the last month or so. It will not take long for you to find out who you can actually discuss things with and who you should ignore.

 

[King James Bond]

whatever,

Thanks for the advice! I dont know if I can read a months worth of posts though.......

As long as its under 2 dollars, is there a place where I can buy the list? LOL

I know what you mean though.....I find myself guilty of doing some twisting here and there of peoples words. And I am very sorry about that.

There are some people that are hard to reason with simply because they are very un-reasonable people.

If people do not have the same understanding of basic concepts like "un-merited favor", how can there exist reasonable discussion?

With all of the free-will, free-choice, free-hearts...free this and free that.......what on earth did Jesus come to set His people free from?

Nothing?

So many already claim to be free!

He came for the lost, not those who think they are good enough.

And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.

I take that to be an absolute declaration.

It is not dependent on the wretched wills of sinful men.

Jesus came to do His Fathers will and they are in unity.

John 6:39 proclaims; “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

I dont seem to have free-choice.....because I am incapable to choose to believe other than what I believe.

I have no other choice!

God bless! KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Bob,

You just just start posting links to this stuff. You are taking up a lot of space reposting the same stuff over and over again. It doesn't get any more true,

It does not "become false" simply by having Calvinist after calvinist "ignore the details".

It does not "become false" by observing the Points that Johnathan Edwards make IN FAVOR of the scenarios.

It does not "become false" simply because Calvinists complain that it exposes a weakness in Calvinism's view of God.

Although this would appear to be obvious - it seems that we are treated to those arguments time after time after time.

But in deference to your point I will save off the link to this "last time" posted and the reader can then note how it is 'dodged' even here in this thread that is ON the supposed idea that God does NOT love the lost. A subject STARTED by Calvinists!!

Not interested in a review of "Romans 9" anymore?

NOT interested in how Calvinism (Johnathan Edwards style) SHOWS God not loving/caring for the lost.

Calvinism's view of God arbitrarily enjoying the torment of "the many" and not of the "FEW" of Matt 7 -- can be shown/exposed time after time only to have Calvinists claim that the "Details are posted".

The odd thing is that the Calvinist response of "we have been dodging this for so long - doesn't that mean it should go away now" is so "compelling to Calvinists"!!

The other "odd thing" is that ON a thread about God LOVING or NOT LOVING the lost in hell - Calvinists would find it appropriate to whine about the way Calvinism shows God NOT LOVING those in hell!!!

Very "instructive" --

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Bob,

We could explain it to you again, or you could just go back and read it, but it is up to whether you are going to understand it. Instead of listening to what we say you continue to misrepresent Calvinism and bear false witness against Calvinists. Repent.

whatever

 

[Timtoolman]

WEll put Bob, I don't understand the compelling force to make God a hater, respecter of persons, responsable for sin and on and on. I just don't get calvinist! They try very hard at character assination with the God of the Bible.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I just don't get calvinist!

You don't even try to get Calvinists. We don't make God a hater. He is not a respecter of persons, and He is not responsible for sin. Why try so hard at character assassination of fellow believers?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I just don't get calvinist!

You don't even try to get Calvinists. We don't make God a hater. He is not a respecter of persons, and He is not responsible for sin. Why try so hard at character assassination of fellow believers? </font>[/QUOTE]

Okay whatever

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
WEll put Bob, I don't understand the compelling force to make God a hater, respecter of persons, responsable for sin and on and on. I just don't get calvinist! They try very hard at character assination with the God of the Bible.

All in the name of Sovereignty, irresistible grace and limited atonement (the last two of which - even 3 point Calvinists can't swallow).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by whatever:

We could explain it to you again,

As I recall the first time around involved

#1. Ignoring the details
#2. Ignoring the points where EVEN Edwards Agreed.
#3. Ignoring the details where even Pastor Larry's posts were in support of "details" trying to be ignored in Calvinist reponses.
#4. AGREEMENT from JohnP that God IS the Author of sin.
#5. Charges that (and I quote) "God Hates HAtes Hates" coming from Calvinists!
#6. JohnP finally responding with an argument that "election is determined by GENETICS" -- an argument that got NO corrective mention at all from any other Calvinist.

Your "record" to this point is so abysmal that I am surprised you would bring it up!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by whatever:

We could explain it to you again, or you could just go back and read it,

Well my posts - repeated on this thread for the umpteenth time are certainly available with the DETAILS in living color.

IF you have a LINK to anything like a response-to-details already given, you are free to "post the link" if nothing else.

But the fact is that you and others here spent far more time "posting" complainst about why you were going to once-again ignore the "details" listed in the challenges to Calvinism -- that I doubt that you even have a post for "actual response to details" to link to.

But I am open to seeing one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But I am open to seeing one.

In Christ,

Bob

Go find it, then. It is there. Basically the problem is that your scenario is built of straw. You well know that have been told why. There is no reason for you to pretend otherwise.

 

[WHYME]

I think of the sign in the window of the small eating establishment;
"All the fried chicken you can eat $1", every time the discussion of John 3:16 arises. Does it mean that the 3 pieces on the plate is all you can eat for $1, or you can eat and eat til you get sick.
I think more then likely the purplehaired person standing in the endzone of the NFL football game
holding up the sign referred to the latter.

 

[King James Bond]

If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing.

Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them.

They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

If people are blinded to the Good News it is because they are held as prisoners in bondage.

Satan holds them in bondage and they are UNABLE to see the Good News about Jesus Christ even though it shines upon them.

UNABLE means incapable or without ability.

They can't freely come to God, and they don't understand anything of God.

They don't understand the Good News, and they don't even know they are blinded to anything.

They probably even think they have free-will even though they are held as prisoners in darkness.

Now these blind people may think and feel that they have free-will.....they may percieve that they are so very free.....but those of us that love the Word of God know better.

We don't go around preaching about ourselves; we preach Christ Jesus, the Lord. All we say about ourselves is that we are your servants because of what Jesus has done for us.

For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

This describes the true Christian.....we do not preach about ourselves.....we do not preach about our choices...our free-willpower...or anything else about us.

We preach Jesus Christ and what He has done for us!

For God said "let there be light in darkness" and made us understand.

It is our God that pulled us out of Satans prison. It is our God who has set us free from the bondage of Satan.

But this precious treasure--this light and power that now shine within us--is held in perishable containers, that is, in our weak bodies. So everyone can see that our glorious power is from God and is not our own.

The power that saved us from the grip of Satan is from God and not our own.

Our wills and choices could never have saved us. Our minds and hearts were held in blindness and we were unable to see the Good News.......but Our God has MADE us understand.

If God does not make light shine in darkness.....

if He does not make blinded people see and understand.....

they simply remain blinded and He has by His sovereign will decided not to save them.

People are ONLY saved by His grace.

Salvation is of the Lord.

Regards, KJB

 

[BobRyan]

I did MORE than simply LINK to the specific extensive DETALS of the argument FOR God loving the World -- I actually POSTED those same points AGAIN - here on this thread.

Even the Calvinists readily admit that these devastating points have ALREADY been posted -- "more than once".

They "Then claim" that they TOO have ANSWERS already posted - AS IF they actually HAD answered the devastating points raised against the speculative views of Calvinism in the posts I gave most recently here

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015.

To which I respond that they have spent soooo much time DODGING rather than ANSWERING that it is doubtful even THEY can find one of TheIR OWN posts with "actual answers" -- dealing with the DETAILS rather than dodging them "repeatedly".

My challenge to the Calvinist SIDE - that they 'try and seek out' an actual example of "detailed answers" to the detailed objections raised in MY LINK above -- is met with the following "dodge"

Originally posted by whatever:
Go find it, then. It is there.

Obviously this is dodge-squared!!

Is there no limit??!!!

I post the actual CONTENT of my OWN position and since you ask -- NOW I ALSO point LINKs to MY OWN position.

What is your response to stepping up to that plate and "doing the SAME" for your OWN answers that you repeatedly boast to "exist"???

You want ME to sift through all the dodge-responses of the Calvinist side to SEE IF I can find one of your answers that is actually detailed, compelling and thorough in addressing the DETAILS raised in the objections starting at the link I GIVE above..

So far "dodging" is the Calvinist method of "response" on this.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[here now]

KJB,

 

[King James Bond]

here now,

Thanks for the thumbs up! It is encouragement!

Think of ways to encourage one another to outbursts of love and good deeds. And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming back again is drawing near.

To everybody and anybody,

I would like to ask a simple question and get a simple answer from anyone willing to answer.

Who claims to have "free-will"?

I am not out to embarrass anybody so I will post my point before there are answers.

For a person to claim they have "free-will" they would have to know about every power and force that exists.

They would have to KNOW for certain that none of these forces are working upon their will.

How would people know for certain that their minds, hearts, wills, and choices are not being affected or influenced in any way from any visible or invisible supernatural powers, forces, spirits, elements, or beings?

What I am trying to say is this;

For a person to KNOW that they have free-will they would have to know all things!

They would have to see and know every power and force that exists everywhere in the entire universe. (Seen and unseen)

To make such a claim; "I have free-will" it has to be based only on perception and not on any truth.

Free-will is a theory that people hold on to even though they have NO proof that there is no power or force directing their every move.

If it has not been revealed to a person (by understanding the Word of God), the most a person could honestly say is;

"I dont know if I have free-will or not because I cant see all powers and forces that may be affecting my will"

At least at that point they are being honest!

It is only at this point a person could begin to teach them.

Scripture is clear that the wills of people are affected by a multitude of influences.

Since God knows all things....and has revealed that the wills, hearts, choices, and minds can be and are influenced and are not free......the best approach is to trust the Word of God!

God bless, KJB

I sure like that thumbs up icon! LOL

 

[BobRyan]

The thread is on "God so Loved the World.. Yes REALLY" -- Supposedly talking about the reality of God "Actually" loving even the lost or God ONLY loving the "FEW" of Matt 7 -- the saved.

The latest post seems to want to talk instead about "Who has free will".

If we can almost all agree that at the fall ALL of mankind came under the dominion of sin and death and ALL got a sinful nature and ALL are depraved as in the Rom 3:9-11 specifics - then it is easy to see that ALL are ENSLAVED to sin as Romans 6 says.

In that case the FREEDOM from sin comes as Christ said from the fact that ALL are subject to His DRAWING (John 12:32) and ALL are BENEFITED by the 2nd ADam (Romans 5) as were harmed by the deeds of the FIRST Adam (Romans 5).

So that brings us back again - to this issue of God "really" So loving "The WORLD" or "not".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[King James Bond]

If I can prove that God hated one human being.......it is absolute proof that God did not love every human being.

If God hated ONE human being....that is proof that the phrase "For God so loved the world" does not mean God loved every person in or of the world.

"For God so loved the world".... I suppose there are also individuals that will say "world" means "earth".

It does not mean "every single person" and it does not mean "earth".

As a matter of fact the same passage is its own clarification!

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Ah.....He gave His only begotten Son for who?

For Believers! Whosoever believes in Him!

He was not given for every single person in and of the world.....only for believers.

He was not given for the goats...only the sheep!

The text solves itself!

Now who are the believers?

Those born again!

Those born of God!

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for His message; and all who WERE APPOINTED to eternal life became believers. Acts

Hope this helps out!

Regards, KJB

[ July 31, 2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: King James Bond ]

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You want ME to sift through all the dodge-responses of the Calvinist side to SEE IF I can find one of your answers that is actually detailed, compelling and thorough in addressing the DETAILS raised in the objections starting at the link I GIVE above..

So far "dodging" is the Calvinist method of "response" on this.

Here are some compelling and thorough details for you.

1) You have no clue what Calvinists actually believe. Well, maybe half a clue, but no more than that.

2) You build a strawman representation of what Calvinists believe and then expect Calvinists to deal with objections to your strawman as if they were objections to what we actually believe.

3) To respond to arguments against what we do not even believe would be as foolish on our part as your persisting in your strawman myths is foolish on your part.

4) The responses are there. I will not do your work for you. If you actually want responses then go back and find them. If you do not want responses then quit posting your same old word-twisting rubbish.

 

[TexasSky]

How does it glorify God for you to teach that God is a God of random hate?