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For God so loved the world
- Thread starter King James Bond
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Among the "many ways to dodge" the points raised "repeatedly" (including points I make WITH quotes from Pastor Larry IN the scenarios and from Johnathan Edwards AND from Calvin and from Spurgeon --) your non-response above is perhaps the "most reliable" retort that one gets as the primary "dodge" taken out of having to actually answer the points raised.
I affirm that this is INDEED what is said to avoid dealing with any detail raised.
Indeed EVEN though the post is rife with quotes from Spurgeon, Calvin, Pastor Larry, JohnP AND Johnathan Edwards - this same old "dodge" comes back...
EVEN When Calvinists here jump onto their "God Hates Hates Hates" bandwagon as they seem to cave on this topic. STILL "Denial" of all that has been said is the "theme" of Calvinist "shell-gaming" where crawling out on a limb and then DENYING it is the "rule" rather than the exception.
It is easy to "note" that so far you have YET to deal with a single SPECIFIC in the points raised INCLUDING the SPECIFIC about pointing to some historic post here where you and others ARE claiming that SPECIFICS were addressed!.
As already asksed "Is there no limit" to this dodging???!!
EVEN when the subject TURNS TO DODGING - you answer by dodgin!!
No limit??? None at all??!!
All you had to do was POINT to a "Specific" and SAY you deny it so that when I POST the quote that goes WITH that detail you can talk about how Calvin or Spurgion or Edwards or Larry are not really your kind of Calvinsts when they ADMIT to the detail you want to reject.
Yes we keep HEARING that claim but never actually SEEING a link posted OR a comment repeat-posted.
yet with MY POINTS EVEN the Calvinists ADMIT that they have SEEN THEM many times before.
Step up to the plate.
Back up something you claim with fact.
Try actually "responding" to a point raised.
Or is this "game of dodge" a genetic thing with Calvinists of your POV?
In Christ,
Bob
T
TexasSky
Guest
Whatever -
King James Bond did when he wrote:
"Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people. "
According to God's word, God IS Love.
King James Bond did when he wrote:
"Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people. "
According to God's word, God IS Love.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I think that is a is a good example of a false assumption that Calvinists make.
They claim that we may get away with "bending" a text away from what it is clearly saying IF we can "pile up some bad inferences" on some other text so as to oppose the first text with another one.
That is not exegesis and it is not legit.
RATHER we have boundaries set by each text. Boundaries in what they explicitly say in context and boundaries in what they do not say - but we give to them by way of inference.
It is "clear" that God DOES say He LOVES the world and even provides Atoning Sacrifice for the "WHOLE WORLD"!
This is not inference it is EXPLICIT IN the text.
That is undisputable.
When God SAYS He "So loves the WORLD" Calvinism will often add the weaselage "It does not mean "every single person" and it does not mean "earth".
That is the kind of "lawyereeze" and sleezy marketing hype claim for God that is revolting NOT just to Arminians but ALSO to 3Point Calvinists!!. The idea that God's way of saying "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that HE GAVE His Son" -- is to say "God so loved the WORLD" and "God gave Christ as the Atoning Sacrifices for the WHOLE WORLD" and "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" -- is certainly marketeering at its best overblown state -- by any measure!
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Now there is a perfect Arminian statement. God loves the WORLD SUCH THAT He gives His Son (An Atoning Sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD) so that ANYONE who believes (not just anyone among the FEW of Matt 7) - but ANYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD -- may be saved.
Christ stands at the door and knocks for ALL MANKIND (The light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY ONE of mankind) so that ANYONE who hears and opens the door has the promise that Christ will come in.
NOT just a promise to "ANYONE among the FEW of MAtt 7".
Wrong again.
When God decides from eternity passed to LOVE the WORLD and GIVE His Son for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" the world is NOT divided between Believers and Unbelievers.
RATHER we have as Romans 5 says a WORLD of LOST unbelievers LOST and unconverted - LOST and bound for hell LOST and needing a Savior.
We have JUST the LOST. NOT a divided world consisting of LOST then another group of BELIEVERS so that God may THEN say -- Hey I think I will love those BELIEVERS.
The Calvinist "word gaming" inserts illogical choices where they never existed.
God STARTS with a lost world -- NO BELIEVERS.
And God says THAT HE THEN "SO loves the WORLD" that He GIVES -- from eternity past.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The grossly obvious circular argument you attempted above is of the following form --
God so loved the World of BELIEVERS.
Who are the Believers? - Those that God So loved!
WHO are those that God loved - the Believers!
THE REALITY is that in a world of NO believers - only Romans 5 LOST humanity - in THAT context God sovereignly CHOOSES to "SO LOVE THE WORLD" that HE chooses to GIVE His Son.
Prior to that sovereign choice to SAVE on God's part - prior to that salvation there can BE no "Believers". If the FIRST cause is going to be GOD - then HE chooses FIRST to "SO LOVE" something. There are NO believers in that FIRST state/condition/cause.
It is only a LOST world that He is faced with according to Romans 5.
In Christ,
Bob
God so loved the World of BELIEVERS.
Who are the Believers? - Those that God So loved!
WHO are those that God loved - the Believers!
THE REALITY is that in a world of NO believers - only Romans 5 LOST humanity - in THAT context God sovereignly CHOOSES to "SO LOVE THE WORLD" that HE chooses to GIVE His Son.
Prior to that sovereign choice to SAVE on God's part - prior to that salvation there can BE no "Believers". If the FIRST cause is going to be GOD - then HE chooses FIRST to "SO LOVE" something. There are NO believers in that FIRST state/condition/cause.
It is only a LOST world that He is faced with according to Romans 5.
In Christ,
Bob
King James Bond
New Member
TexasSky,
Hello there! Well first of all God is glorious!
With or without men, He is glorious!
God does not hate at random.
Scripture says He shows mercy on whom He wishes to show mercy. It is not random.
I am only posting Scripture!
Scripture says;
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." —Romans 9:15.
TexasSky there is a person on this topic that made some sort of remark about our daughters being in Hell.
Well the fact of the matter is this;
God owns all things...He owns cattle, rocks, chickens, bacteria, comets, flies, frogs, and anything else you can think of.
This includes the souls of people...including my daughter!
Yes! Souls belong to Him! They are His to do with as He wills!
You may say something like; "God is not a murderer"!
You are correct! Even if He kills all people He is not a murderer!
Scripture claims that God killed all Egyptian firstborns.
Can He do that against their will and without their consent? Yes He can!
Do they have free-choice in the matter? No they dont!
I would venture to say it would be true that some of the Egyptian firstborns were mere infants capable of only soiling themselves, crying, and sleeping.
Was it fair for God to kill them? Of course it is.....they belong to Him to do as he wills!
For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One wrong idle word is enough to merit Hell.
My daughter and myself have a very good understanding of what we have earned!
We are very well aware of what we deserve as earned wages!
We have by the grace of God been made aware of such things.
If God was to send me and my daughter into Hell, who would blame Him? Me? My daughter?
What would I do? Yell at Him? Take Him to court? Argue with Him?
No, no, no! If He sent every son, every daughter, along with every parent into Hell, He is still good and glorious!
God is great and good just because He is!
Regards, KJB
Hello there! Well first of all God is glorious!
With or without men, He is glorious!
God does not hate at random.
Scripture says He shows mercy on whom He wishes to show mercy. It is not random.
I am only posting Scripture!
Scripture says;
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." —Romans 9:15.
TexasSky there is a person on this topic that made some sort of remark about our daughters being in Hell.
Well the fact of the matter is this;
God owns all things...He owns cattle, rocks, chickens, bacteria, comets, flies, frogs, and anything else you can think of.
This includes the souls of people...including my daughter!
Yes! Souls belong to Him! They are His to do with as He wills!
You may say something like; "God is not a murderer"!
You are correct! Even if He kills all people He is not a murderer!
Scripture claims that God killed all Egyptian firstborns.
Can He do that against their will and without their consent? Yes He can!
Do they have free-choice in the matter? No they dont!
I would venture to say it would be true that some of the Egyptian firstborns were mere infants capable of only soiling themselves, crying, and sleeping.
Was it fair for God to kill them? Of course it is.....they belong to Him to do as he wills!
For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One wrong idle word is enough to merit Hell.
My daughter and myself have a very good understanding of what we have earned!
We are very well aware of what we deserve as earned wages!
We have by the grace of God been made aware of such things.
If God was to send me and my daughter into Hell, who would blame Him? Me? My daughter?
What would I do? Yell at Him? Take Him to court? Argue with Him?
No, no, no! If He sent every son, every daughter, along with every parent into Hell, He is still good and glorious!
God is great and good just because He is!
Regards, KJB
T
TexasSky
Guest
Scripture also says that God sent his son, not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
Scripture also says that God desires that all men repent and be saved.
Scripture also says that God sends his message of grace unto all men that they might be saved.
And scripture also says that men perish because men refuse the truth.
And Christ said he came for the sinners, not the righteous.
God is a God of love.
You are blashpheming God to teach that He is a God of hate.
Scripture also says that God desires that all men repent and be saved.
Scripture also says that God sends his message of grace unto all men that they might be saved.
And scripture also says that men perish because men refuse the truth.
And Christ said he came for the sinners, not the righteous.
God is a God of love.
You are blashpheming God to teach that He is a God of hate.
T
TexasSky
Guest
BTW -
Before you take a verse out of context and use it to support the theory that "God hates without reason," you need to really know the background of the verse referred to.
The bible notes regarding that verse in Romans, refers you back to Malachi.
The bible notes for Malachi say that the scriptures actually reads more like, "God loved Jacob more," in the same way it was said that Jacob "hated Leah" and loved Rachel. Jacob, it is believed, did not "hate" Leah, but he preferred Rachel.
A few more things before you stand too strongly on that verse as supporting your cause.
Esau was never meant to be the first born child. He grabbed his brother's heel and pulled him back. First mistake he made was in the womb. A mistake of thwarting God's design.
Also, the "apparent hatred" was not "random." Esau was jealous and plotted the murder of his brother. A very ungodly heart. Jacob had a godly heart. Esau did not.
Hardly, "Random election."
Before you take a verse out of context and use it to support the theory that "God hates without reason," you need to really know the background of the verse referred to.
The bible notes regarding that verse in Romans, refers you back to Malachi.
The bible notes for Malachi say that the scriptures actually reads more like, "God loved Jacob more," in the same way it was said that Jacob "hated Leah" and loved Rachel. Jacob, it is believed, did not "hate" Leah, but he preferred Rachel.
A few more things before you stand too strongly on that verse as supporting your cause.
Esau was never meant to be the first born child. He grabbed his brother's heel and pulled him back. First mistake he made was in the womb. A mistake of thwarting God's design.
Also, the "apparent hatred" was not "random." Esau was jealous and plotted the murder of his brother. A very ungodly heart. Jacob had a godly heart. Esau did not.
Hardly, "Random election."
"Esau was never meant to be the first born child."
Yes he was, because God said "The elder shall serve the younger." Nothing went against God's plan.
"He grabbed his brother's heel and pulled him back."
This is nowhere to be found in Genesis 25, where this took place. Did I miss something there? It was the other way around: Jacob grabbed Esau's heel.
Does God hate without reason? No.
But in Hosea He makes it clear that He hates for a reason: "...I will love them no more." What he said in Genesis, "My spirit shall not always strive with man" is still true. God will only go so far with people, but then gives up on them. These are the vessels fit for destruction. It is not a random thing like Calvinist's contend.
So, I do feel as though we are on the same side of this issue.
If one were to take the passage "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated" in a literal since, then you have to do that with the passage where the Lord said that one should "Hate Father and Mother" also in a literal since. It is clearly a matter of degree.
All through Romans 9 Paul speaks of Israel and earthly privelidge that God bestows apon man, it has nothing to do with God choosing this one to be saved, and this one to be lost. Such a notion is alien to the Bible. (Although I am sure that my Calvinist brethren will try to prove differently.)
King James Bond
New Member
TexasSky,
Every person is deserving of hell.
Do you understand that?
There are none righteous....none.
All are sinners.
Now what is the problem that you have with being sent to Hell?
Is that some sort of problem you can't deal with?
I will tell you the truth! You and I are deserving of Hell!
What is the problem you have thinking God owes all people salvation?
Read the text for yourself;
for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth,
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
Everything good has to do with God's mercy!
He will have mercy (soften) on whom He will!
He will harden whom He will!
This is not random....this is His choosing.
It depends not on the man who wills but on God showing mercy.
Pharoah was raised up for God's purpose......not Pharoahs!
Until a man can really understand he is deserving and worthy of everlasting Hell............he will never be ready for Heaven.
Until a man is convicted in his heart and mind that Hell is where he belongs for everything he has earned........he will never understand "unmerited favor".
Take care and regards, KJB
Every person is deserving of hell.
Do you understand that?
There are none righteous....none.
All are sinners.
Now what is the problem that you have with being sent to Hell?
Is that some sort of problem you can't deal with?
I will tell you the truth! You and I are deserving of Hell!
What is the problem you have thinking God owes all people salvation?
Read the text for yourself;
for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth,
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
Everything good has to do with God's mercy!
He will have mercy (soften) on whom He will!
He will harden whom He will!
This is not random....this is His choosing.
It depends not on the man who wills but on God showing mercy.
Pharoah was raised up for God's purpose......not Pharoahs!
Until a man can really understand he is deserving and worthy of everlasting Hell............he will never be ready for Heaven.
Until a man is convicted in his heart and mind that Hell is where he belongs for everything he has earned........he will never understand "unmerited favor".
Take care and regards, KJB
King James Bond
New Member
TexasSky,
You posted;
Scripture also says that God sent his son, not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
Scripture also says that God desires that all men repent and be saved.
Scripture also says that God sends his message of grace unto all men that they might be saved.
And scripture also says that men perish because men refuse the truth.
And Christ said he came for the sinners, not the righteous.
God is a God of love.
You are blashpheming God to teach that He is a God of hate.
Would it be ok if you and I go through all these points together? You provide the passages ok.
I am ready and willing to see if we can sort through and know the truth.
God bless and regards, KJB
You posted;
Scripture also says that God sent his son, not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
Scripture also says that God desires that all men repent and be saved.
Scripture also says that God sends his message of grace unto all men that they might be saved.
And scripture also says that men perish because men refuse the truth.
And Christ said he came for the sinners, not the righteous.
God is a God of love.
You are blashpheming God to teach that He is a God of hate.
Would it be ok if you and I go through all these points together? You provide the passages ok.
I am ready and willing to see if we can sort through and know the truth.
God bless and regards, KJB
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." —Romans 9:15.
(speaking of Edom and Israel NATIONal HISTORY under the name Esau and Jacob)
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015
Would it make it "any more Calvinist" to do that?
In Christ,
Bob
(speaking of Edom and Israel NATIONal HISTORY under the name Esau and Jacob)
(Actually posted here --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/2.html#000015
Is THIS an answer you would like to "see inserted" into that "Scenario" posted above?
Would it make it "any more Calvinist" to do that?
In Christ,
Bob
King James Bond
New Member
Please focus.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
That is a complete statement.
If a person can interpret "For God so loved the world ........." as somehow meaning God loves all people,,,,,
Why can't other people read it and find it says nothing about people at all.....it says for God so loved the world .
Do you comprende? "World"! God loved world.
Now how would we find out that the word WORLD is referring to any people at all?
How do we know it does not mean planet earth?
We read the entire statement, thats how!
This statement says nothing about God loving all people.
Who are the ones that will not perish but have everlasting life? Believers will.
So it is obvious who is loved.......believers are!
That means that Jesus Christ covered the sins of believers and they will not perish.
Now if all people start out as UN-believers unless God has made them believers...........how do UN-believers become believers?
WHO is it that changes the desires and wills of people to become believers?
What is the process that changes the human heart and will?
I will give you a few hints;
and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.
I wonder if this guy was going to grow up to be a believer or not?
He was probably asking God to come into his heart while he was an unborn fetus! Yea thats it!
Maybe he had to wait until the age of accountability so he could allow the Holy Spirit into his life.....we all know the Holy Spirit can't make believers unless allowed by people.
Hint, Hint
“who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Wow! New birth! From rebels to followers!
How were they made like this? How did they receive this new life? How about we try filling in the blank?
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of ___.
Hint, Hint
If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing. Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Ah ha! It says those that don't believe are blinded and UNABLE to see!
Here we are again with those UN-believers.
If they are UNABLE.......how would they be saved?
How are the INABLE ENABLED?
How do they ever become believers?
For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.
If you answered "GOD" before I even posted that text you were correct!
It is God! And he does not love all people exactly the same.
If He does not MAKE light shine in darkness.......it NEVER does!
Regards, KJB
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
That is a complete statement.
If a person can interpret "For God so loved the world ........." as somehow meaning God loves all people,,,,,
Why can't other people read it and find it says nothing about people at all.....it says for God so loved the world .
Do you comprende? "World"! God loved world.
Now how would we find out that the word WORLD is referring to any people at all?
How do we know it does not mean planet earth?
We read the entire statement, thats how!
This statement says nothing about God loving all people.
Who are the ones that will not perish but have everlasting life? Believers will.
So it is obvious who is loved.......believers are!
That means that Jesus Christ covered the sins of believers and they will not perish.
Now if all people start out as UN-believers unless God has made them believers...........how do UN-believers become believers?
WHO is it that changes the desires and wills of people to become believers?
What is the process that changes the human heart and will?
I will give you a few hints;
and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.
I wonder if this guy was going to grow up to be a believer or not?
He was probably asking God to come into his heart while he was an unborn fetus! Yea thats it!
Maybe he had to wait until the age of accountability so he could allow the Holy Spirit into his life.....we all know the Holy Spirit can't make believers unless allowed by people.
Hint, Hint
“who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Wow! New birth! From rebels to followers!
How were they made like this? How did they receive this new life? How about we try filling in the blank?
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of ___.
Hint, Hint
If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing. Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Ah ha! It says those that don't believe are blinded and UNABLE to see!
Here we are again with those UN-believers.
If they are UNABLE.......how would they be saved?
How are the INABLE ENABLED?
How do they ever become believers?
For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.
If you answered "GOD" before I even posted that text you were correct!
It is God! And he does not love all people exactly the same.
If He does not MAKE light shine in darkness.......it NEVER does!
Regards, KJB
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God says "He is NOT Partial" Romans 2:11-13.
That means that the Romans 9 principle that it has ALWAYS been "Children of the Promise" That are heirs - is UNCHANGED.
It is NOT a case of arbitrary selection of SOME of Israel to be saved and SOME to be lost. RATHER it is the IMPARTIAL GOD operating according to the rules listed in Romans 2 where the only circumcision that EVER counted ws "Circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit" as Romans 2 states.
It is the SAME point made again in Romans 9.
In Christ,
Bob
That means that the Romans 9 principle that it has ALWAYS been "Children of the Promise" That are heirs - is UNCHANGED.
It is NOT a case of arbitrary selection of SOME of Israel to be saved and SOME to be lost. RATHER it is the IMPARTIAL GOD operating according to the rules listed in Romans 2 where the only circumcision that EVER counted ws "Circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit" as Romans 2 states.
It is the SAME point made again in Romans 9.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is classic "marketeering" you are simply "turning a phrase" as a gimmick to get God OUT of the problem of ACTUALLY having to "So Love the WORLD"!
That is classic Calvinism but is never the Gospel method.
God so loved the WORLD -- Yes "really"!!
Calvinism tries a bit of lawyereeze-sleeze saying "World! Did I say WORLD!! Well I didn't really mean ALL the People in the World! Surely you did not think That did you?? heh heh! No, No I meant God so Loved SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD... Surely that came out loud and clear didn't it??
Ok Arminians - Maybe I should have worded it differently"
But the "NEW" Twist KJB adds it that God is now not claiming to LOVE EVEN ONE PERSON in the World == just a peopleless-planet!!
That is taking the Calvinist idea of loophole-ing to a whole new level!!
I didn't think it could be done!!
Congrats!
Oh great!! We are back to having a world full of people!!
Wonderful!
Good to have you back KJB!
Do we also have the same WORLD full of PEOPLE that John introduced us to in John 1:1-6??
I sure hope so because THEN the CONTEXT for that WORLD in John 3 is that Christ "Came INTO the WORLD the same WORLD that HE made and came as LIGHT to the WORLD enlightening EVERYONE of mankind"
Ohh - Ouch!! There is that "Exegesis thing" again.
The WORLD being given an all-people CONTEXT right at the START of John's Gospel!!
"God so LOVED The WORLD that WHOEVER" -- hmm I wonder how many of those "WhoEVERS" is human??
Yep you got it - ALL of them!!
And HOW many Humans qualify under "WHOEVER" as a "WHOEVER"??
Yep! you got it!! -- ALL of them!!
Excuse me - but this is the SAME circular argument already exposed at the topo of page 4.
Here is a link.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/4.html#000045
Wrong question.
IF ALL humans are UNBELIEVERS when GOD CHOOSES to "SO LOVE" and then to "GIVE" as a result of that "SO LOVING" -- then Calvinism has no chance to insert its circular arugment AS IF God is looking on a vast sea of BELIEVERS and saying -- "OK I think I will LOVE THEM and GIVE them a Savior"!!
The sea of BELIEVERS coming BEFORE God decides to LOVE them - does not exist.
God Loves a LOST WORLD and as a RESULT of that -- there comes about the existence of Believers.
CAlvinists in John 3 like to START with a sea of Believers whom God does NOT LOVE - and THEN God decides to Love THEM and ONLY THEM!!
How "illogical" of the Calvinists to suggest such a thing in their "all for Calvinism" model.
Much better to drop the marketeering and just stick with "God so LOVED THE WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have everlasting life"
In Christ,
Bob
Jarthur001
Active Member
Did I hear the words lawyereeze-sleeze???
You want to see some marketeering....you got it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1534/10.html#000149
You want to see some marketeering....you got it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1534/10.html#000149
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hey you objected to my "paying attention to the Details" again.
I am focused on the fact that the light of Christ is the Light of men -- and you argue "yes but not every man" and then the text says "the light of every man" right after you show that you need to avoid that problem!
How cool is that?!!
The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!
"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.
In Christ,
Bob
I am focused on the fact that the light of Christ is the Light of men -- and you argue "yes but not every man" and then the text says "the light of every man" right after you show that you need to avoid that problem!
How cool is that?!!
Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).
The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!
"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.
In Christ,
Bob