"For God SO LOVES the HUMAN RACE..."

[The Archangel]

Both John 21:25 and 2 Peter 3:9 exclusively use the verb form χωρησαι which is Aorist Active Infinitive.

According to what?

According to my information, they are not the same—one is Future one is Aorist. Perhaps there is a textual variant?

In any event, the preposition would have more of a effect on the grammar. The context in which the word appears is equally as important as the form. In other words, the parsing is not the only grammar to consider.

The Archangel



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[37818]

Perhaps there is a textual variant?

Yes. The common reading of manuscripts of John agree against 3 manuscipts there.

 

[The Archangel]

Yes. The common reading of manuscripts of John agree against 3 manuscipts there.

I have found no such information. Where did you get yours?

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Because we're getting far afield, I'll remind us that the word in question here is "World," not contain. The reading of "contain" in John 21:25 does not affect the translation of "world."

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

Gup20,

I have a couple of questions (for you and for Calvinists too).

okay.

1. How many sins did Adam commit before he was judged?[/QUOTE]
just one

2. Did Adam's sin bring universal judgement or just him?

Adam's sin brought judgment on all men, He himself was included in that judgment

Are all guilty of Adam's sin or just experiencing the judgement?

Yes ...Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12-21

3. What was the universal judgement for Adam's sin?

Death passed upon all men ,for have sinned

3. Does Christ's atonement bring universal resurrection?

All persons are going to be raised from the dead physically, even before the work on the cross was finished. John5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

4. How many sins does Jesus atonement forgive for everyone?

For those who remain in unbelief, not one of their sins is paid for, they die,IN THEIR SINS[plural] jn8:
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

For the elect?

Every single sin was taken by Jesus

One sin or many sins?

every single sin, a multitude of sins, plural.

5. Was Adam's judgment of death limited only to an elect group like Calvinists think Christ's

No...Adams sin was passed on to every person physically born

6. Are the elect born guilty of Adam's sin?

Yes, they are born children of wrath, even as others;
Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

How many sins did Adam commit?

Adam sinned at the fall, and every day for the rest of his life.

7. Are the elect completely forgiven or just forgiven for their own, individual sin? [/QUOTE]

Adams sin is imputed to all men ever physically born at conception. They as sinners sin every day of their lives.

Does Christ's atonement wash them from their own sin or from Adam's sin too?

Both.. Adams sin is passed on to all men, who add their own sins every day.
Only those who are born from above, move from the realm of death into the realm of life.
Spiritual Life , comes from the new birth alone, as we are indwelt and quickened by the Spirit.

look again at the verses in jn 5:28,29...
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
2cor2
4 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death;

and to the other the savour of life unto life.
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
All are raised. Some go from DEATH TO DEATH
SOME GO FROM LIFE TO LIFE

See what I want people to start understanding is that if Adam's sin was singular, and his judgment universal, then forgiving even a SINGLE person who was guilty in Adam would forgive the one sin and immediately resurrect and forgive each and every person who was guilty in Adam, because the one sin we were all guilty from would have been forgiven.

This is not correct. Jesus did not come to pay for only one sin, and then everyone is a clean slate.
It is an all or nothing situation

If Christ's atonement was individual rather than universal like Adam's judgement, then it couldn't forgive Adam's universal judgement.

Rev 20:11-12 NASB 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

Uh oh... it looks like the great white throne judgement will be an individual judgement based on each person's individual deeds... not based on the universal corporate judgement of Adam.

it is both, not either or.

Is a universal judgment of death just if there is even one, righteous person? No. The universal judgment of Adam must therefore be repealed, and then each person judged individually because a single righteous person exists!

no..you do not understand this whole passage.

 

[37818]

I have found no svuch information. Where did you get yours?

My Nestle-Anland is packed because I am moving. And the family 35 Greek text that I reference did not even cite the Codex Vanticanus (B). Which it should of. So I improvised and used Google. Found a PDF which gave 3 manuscripts listed as 01c B C*

http://www.tfinney.net/Views/tables/John-JWA-key.pdf

 

[Van]

Every so often the Calvinists launch yet another attack on John 3:16. John usually used the term translated "world" to mean fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. That is it, not eight different meanings. God gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life. Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, not some of it. God desires all men be saved. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

 

[1689Dave]

Every so often the Calvinists launch yet another attack on John 3:16. John usually used the term translated "world" to mean fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. That is it, not eight different meanings. God gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life. Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, not some of it. God desires all men be saved. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

In this scenario, Christ did not atone for sins at all. Because the sin of rejecting him is not covered.

 

[JonC]

In this scenario, Christ did not atone for sins at all. Because the sin of rejecting him is not covered.

Sin (ALL sin) is the sin of rejecting Him. Sins are manifestations of man's Sin of rejecting Him.

 

[1689Dave]

Sin (ALL sin) is the sin of rejecting Him. Sins are manifestations of man's Sin of rejecting Him.

= Christ did not pay for any sin on the cross if meant for all and all are not saved.

 

[JonC]

= Christ did not pay for any sin on the cross if meant for all and all are not saved.

I do not get the assumption.

Why would Christ paying for all sin equate to universal salvation??

 

[The Archangel]

My Nestle-Anland is packed because I am moving. And the family 35 Greek text that I reference did not even cite the Codex Vanticanus (B). Which it should of. So I improvised and used Google. Found a PDF which gave 3 manuscripts listed as 01c B C*

http://www.tfinney.net/Views/tables/John-JWA-key.pdf

Still... the key here is world and John 21:25 is using the word as a reference to the physical, actual world.

The Archangel


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[1689Dave]

I do not get the assumption.

Why would Christ paying for all sin equate to universal salvation??

Because if he paid for all the sins of all people, all will be saved. And we know better.

 

[JonC]

Because if he paid for all the sins of all people, all will be saved. And we know better.

You are making a huge assumption - not that we all know all men will not be saved but that if Christ "paid for" all sin all would be saved.

 

[37818]

Still... the key here is world and John 21:25 is using the word as a reference to the physical, actual world.

The facts still remain. We are arguing interpretations. The Greek is indeed translated "world." And the transliteration has come to mean the known universe. The usage in John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2, "whole world" in reference to mankind is a common understanding. The fact remains that mankind is a subset in the universe. So as the term is used in the NT, one can get away with the argument that none of the usages disallow the meaning of that Greek term in the NT to mean mankind. Because mankind is a subset of the universe. Understand? So you are likely very correct. It is commonly translated "world." But that argument, that it must always mean "mankind" in the NT, even being wrong, cannot be shown to be impossible, if being understood to be mankind as used in the NT.

 

[Van]

In this scenario, Christ did not atone for sins at all. Because the sin of rejecting him is not covered.

Yet another deflection. Scripture says Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Scripture also says:
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Note the result of Christ's death is the opportunity to "bring us to God." Everyone God chooses to place in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ where the sin burden (what God holds against them) is removed. So what was bought was the right to remove anyone's sins, those to be saved and those never to be saved such as taught in 2 Peter 2:1-2. Thus Christ died for all mankind.

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another deflection. Scripture says Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Scripture also says:
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Note the result of Christ's death is the opportunity to "bring us to God." Everyone God chooses to place in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ where the sin burden (what God holds against them) is removed. So what was bought was the right to remove anyone's sins, those to be saved and those never to be saved such as taught in 2 Peter 2:1-2. Thus Christ died for all mankind.

But he did not pay for anyone's sin. If his death extends to all, and all are not saved, he didn't pay for sin at all.

 

[1689Dave]

You are making a huge assumption - not that we all know all men will not be saved but that if Christ "paid for" all sin all would be saved.

Why wouldn't they be saved if Christ paid for everyone's sin, including the sin of rejecting him?

 

[Reformed1689]

Ah yes, John 3:16 the Calvin ointment spoiler.

It takes MANY human authors to undo it.

It's not a spoiler to Calvinism. That is only the case if you take it out of context of the whole of Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why wouldn't they be saved if Christ paid for everyone's sin, including the sin of rejecting him?

It's no use in arguing with the logical inconsistency.