Foreknowledge, Foreknown, Predestined

[Amy.G]

I see no contradication in Scripture.

I don't either. I'm just wondering why someone who already knows God would seek Him? I don't seek Him, do you? I seek His wisdom, His counsel, comfort, guidance and His will, but I don't seek Him because He is with me. He will never leave me.

Before I was saved I sought Him. And He let me find Him.

1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

 

[TCGreek]

1. Amy, no one disputes those Scriptures that you have brought.

2. But Paul says that by nature man does not seek God. Therefore, if God requires us to seek Him, He must first enable us to seek Him (Rom 3:11, 12; John 6:65).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I don't either. I'm just wondering why someone who already knows God would seek Him? I don't seek Him, do you? I seek His wisdom, His counsel, comfort, guidance and His will, but I don't seek Him because He is with me. He will never leave me.

Before I was saved I sought Him. And He let me find Him.

1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

One of my greatest joys as a born again child of God is to seek the Lord. And I find great encourgement to do so in Scripture.

"Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually." 1 Chron 16:11

"Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore." Psalm 105:4

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Ps 27:8

"O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;" Ps 63:1

On a personal note, when I first became a Christian people asked what happened to me. I said, "I have given my life to Jesus." This was true and is true. But as I grew in my knowledge from the Scriptures I came to understand that I did give my life to Him because He first gave His life to me. I love Jesus because He first loved me. I turned in repentence to the Lord because His goodness led me to do so. I became sensible to my sins because the Holy Spirit convinced me I was a sinner. I was born again because my Lord had mercy on me and brought it to pass.

I was seeking truth before I was saved. I was seeking for God. And what did I find before His grace saved me? That there was a universal consciousness that binds all humanity together, that psyedlic drugs are god's creation so we could connect with the divine and ourselves, that every living thing has the divine essense it and can be properly worshipped...I bowed down and offered praise to the earth, the sky, and the sun. I groped for God, but stumbled greatly in my darkness.

I really can't say that there was anything I did at all to recieve the salvation I now rejoice in. When I grew further in my faith and understood the doctrine of election, His love was magnified in my mind and heart knowning that He purposed my salvation before the world began. I have nothing I can do but to fall down and praise Him who saved me by His grace.

 

[Amy.G]

One of my greatest joys as a born again child of God is to seek the Lord. And I find great encourgement to do so in Scripture..

That is what I meant by seeking His wisdom, counsel, ect. But as far as seeking Him, I don't have to do that now. He is with me and in me. If my husband is sitting next to me, I don't seek him because he is right there.

On a personal note, when I first became a Christian people asked what happened to me. I said, "I have given my life to Jesus." This was true and is true. But as I grew in my knowledge from the Scriptures I came to understand that I did give my life to Him because He first gave His life to me. I love Jesus because He first loved me. I turned in repentence to the Lord because His goodness led me to do so. I became sensible to my sins because the Holy Spirit convinced me I was a sinner. I was born again because my Lord had mercy on me and brought it to pass.

Amen!

I was seeking truth before I was saved. I was seeking for God. And what did I find before His grace saved me? That there was a universal consciousness that binds all humanity together, that psyedlic drugs are god's creation so we could connect with the divine and ourselves, that every living thing has the divine essense it and can be properly worshipped...I bowed down and offered praise to the earth, the sky, and the sun. I groped for God, but stumbled greatly in my darkness.

You have an awesom testimony! But, if you were truly seeking God, it's plain that He led you in the direction that took you to Him. As I recall you picked up a book thinking it was something to do with the occult, but it turned out to be about God? No doubt, God led you to that book, but I believe it was in response to you seeking Him.

I

really can't say that there was anything I did at all to recieve the salvation I now rejoice in. When I grew further in my faith and understood the doctrine of election, His love was magnified in my mind and heart knowning that He purposed my salvation before the world began. I have nothing I can do but to fall down and praise Him who saved me by His grace

No one can take credit for their salvation, it is a gift of God. None of us deserves salvation either, it is by grace.
We are required to believe though. I believe that God has equipped us with the ability to choose.

As we were talking earlier about the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

Good=God
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Satan=evil
Jos 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."


Both good and evil have been revealed to us. As God said:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

 

[Amy.G]

1. Amy, no one disputes those Scriptures that you have brought.

2. But Paul says that by nature man does not seek God. Therefore, if God requires us to seek Him, He must first enable us to seek Him (Rom 3:11, 12; John 6:65).

I agree. If left to ourselves, we would not seek God. God draws us to Him. But, I believe God draws all people, where as you believe He only draws the elect.

I believe the elect are those that believe, whereas you believe the elect believe because they are the elect.

Let's go back to Adam. Was he one of the elect? Once he died because of his disobedience to God, did he stop believing? Did God have to draw him after he was expelled from the garden? What was the means of salvation for Adam once he was a natural man?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Amy,

Let me add that we all have an awesome testimony because of our awesome God.

You wrote, "if you were truly seeking God, it's plain that He led you in the direction that took you to Him. As I recall you picked up a book thinking it was something to do with the occult, but it turned out to be about God? No doubt, God led you to that book, but I believe it was in response to you seeking Him."

You have summed up my Calvinism in terms of God's Sovereignty and man's freedom here. God put it in my heart to seek. Then He provides the means by which I heard the Word of God. All glory to God.

 

[TCGreek]

One of my greatest joys as a born again child of God is to seek the Lord. And I find great encourgement to do so in Scripture.

"Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually." 1 Chron 16:11

"Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore." Psalm 105:4

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Ps 27:8

"O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;" Ps 63:1

On a personal note, when I first became a Christian people asked what happened to me. I said, "I have given my life to Jesus." This was true and is true. But as I grew in my knowledge from the Scriptures I came to understand that I did give my life to Him because He first gave His life to me. I love Jesus because He first loved me. I turned in repentence to the Lord because His goodness led me to do so. I became sensible to my sins because the Holy Spirit convinced me I was a sinner. I was born again because my Lord had mercy on me and brought it to pass.

I was seeking truth before I was saved. I was seeking for God. And what did I find before His grace saved me? That there was a universal consciousness that binds all humanity together, that psyedlic drugs are god's creation so we could connect with the divine and ourselves, that every living thing has the divine essense it and can be properly worshipped...I bowed down and offered praise to the earth, the sky, and the sun. I groped for God, but stumbled greatly in my darkness.

I really can't say that there was anything I did at all to recieve the salvation I now rejoice in. When I grew further in my faith and understood the doctrine of election, His love was magnified in my mind and heart knowning that He purposed my salvation before the world began. I have nothing I can do but to fall down and praise Him who saved me by His grace.

You have spoken for me too. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

You have summed up my Calvinism in terms of God's Sovereignty and man's freedom here. God put it in my heart to seek. Then He provides the means by which I heard the Word of God. All glory to God.

And this is how it has always worked and how it will always work.

soli deo gloria.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

Let me add that we all have an awesome testimony because of our awesome God.

You wrote, "if you were truly seeking God, it's plain that He led you in the direction that took you to Him. As I recall you picked up a book thinking it was something to do with the occult, but it turned out to be about God? No doubt, God led you to that book, but I believe it was in response to you seeking Him."

You have summed up my Calvinism in terms of God's Sovereignty and man's freedom here. God put it in my heart to seek. Then He provides the means by which I heard the Word of God. All glory to God.

On that we can agree!

By the way, you and TC are my favorite Calvinists. You are always gracious and kind. Thank you.

 

[rjprince]

I think we are dealing with one of the paradoxes of Scripture. How can men who are dead in trespasses and sin seek God?

I do not know. I firmly maintain that they can't. Yet we find the Ethiopian Eunuch responding the light that he had in coming to Jerusalem to worship and purchasing a scroll of Isaiah, no doubt a sizeable investment. We find Cornelius praying in Caesarea at the time of the afternoon oblation. How do we explain the apparent conflict? I have no idea.

I know that I made a conscious decision to trust Christ, to believe on Him. I also believe that had it not be for His grace in drawing me to Himself in an effectual way, I would never have come.

I believe it was Spurgeon who said, "When I came to the door of salvation, I saw over the door a sign that said 'Whosoever will may come'. After passing through the door I looked back and a sign on the inside that said 'Elect before the foundations of the world'".

How do I balance that out? With great caution and fear and also with an awareness of my own inability to either fully understand or effectively relate the depths of truth involved.

 

[TCGreek]

I agree. If left to ourselves, we would not seek God. God draws us to Him. But, I believe God draws all people, where as you believe He only draws the elect.

1. You're true on that, that we believe differently, but what does the Bible say.

I believe the elect are those that believe, whereas you believe the elect believe because they are the elect.

2. But Acts 13:48 disproves your positon, "Those who were appointed to eternal life believed." Please, notice the sequence: Appointed to eternal life, then believed, not the reverse.

Let's go back to Adam. Was he one of the elect? Once he died because of his disobedience to God, did he stop believing? Did God have to draw him after he was expelled from the garden? What was the means of salvation for Adam once he was a natural man?

3. Adam was only federal head, for we all sinned in him (Rom 5:12); Adam was in a unique relationship with YHWH, even communing with God unlike any other.

4. The Bible does say what really happened to Adam, but from the rest of Scripture and because of the unity of Scripture, if God were saved, then yes, he was elect of God unto salvation. But I cannot say for sure; maybe RB can help out here.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I think we are dealing with one of the paradoxes of Scripture. How can men who are dead in trespasses and sin seek God?

I do not know. I firmly maintain that they can't. Yet we find the Ethiopian Eunuch responding the light that he had in coming to Jerusalem to worship and purchasing a scroll of Isaiah, no doubt a sizeable investment. We find Cornelius praying in Caesarea at the time of the afternoon oblation. How do we explain the apparent conflict? I have no idea.

I know that I made a conscious decision to trust Christ, to believe on Him. I also believe that had it not be for His grace in drawing me to Himself in an effectual way, I would never have come.

I believe it was Spurgeon who said, "When I came to the door of salvation, I saw over the door a sign that said 'Whosoever will may come'. After passing through the door I looked back and a sign on the inside that said 'Elect before the foundations of the world'".

How do I balance that out? With great caution and fear and also with an awareness of my own inability to either fully understand or effectively relate the depths of truth involved.

Well said. I have yet to read a reformer or calvinist writing on the subject to make the claim that he understood the relationship between the two. That Spurgeon quote really sums it up.

 

[Amy.G]

I think we are dealing with one of the paradoxes of Scripture. How can men who are dead in trespasses and sin seek God?

I do not know. I firmly maintain that they can't. Yet we find the Ethiopian Eunuch responding the light that he had in coming to Jerusalem to worship and purchasing a scroll of Isaiah, no doubt a sizeable investment. We find Cornelius praying in Caesarea at the time of the afternoon oblation. How do we explain the apparent conflict? I have no idea.

I know that I made a conscious decision to trust Christ, to believe on Him. I also believe that had it not be for His grace in drawing me to Himself in an effectual way, I would never have come.

I believe it was Spurgeon who said, "When I came to the door of salvation, I saw over the door a sign that said 'Whosoever will may come'. After passing through the door I looked back and a sign on the inside that said 'Elect before the foundations of the world'".

How do I balance that out? With great caution and fear and also with an awareness of my own inability to either fully understand or effectively relate the depths of truth involved.

I think that is what Paul meant by "seeing in a mirror dimly" among other things.

Who can know the mind of God?

God is sovereign, yet He allows us free will. We make choices everyday, yet God predestines many things.

All I can say is, I'm glad He's God, because I can fully trust in Him without having to understand all things.

 

[TCGreek]

I think that is what Paul meant by "seeing in a mirror dimly" among other things.

Who can know the mind of God?

1. I think there's a difference here, Amy.

2. I really don't think the doctrine of unconditional election is enigmatic in anyway.

God is sovereign, yet He allows us free will. We make choices everyday, yet God predestines many things.

3. True, true, yes, everything that happens is within the sovereign purview of God and brings Him glory.

All I can say is, I'm glad He's God, because I can fully trust in Him without having to understand all things.

4. And you were able to trust God because He drew you (John 6:65).

 

[Amy.G]

2. But Acts 13:48 disproves your positon, "Those who were appointed to eternal life believed." Please, notice the sequence: Appointed to eternal life, then believed, not the reverse.

I don't think it disproves my position any more than other scriptures like Matt 23:37 disproves yours. What I see all through scripture is God's predestination and man's free will. I will say that our free will is only as free as God ordains. We are always held inside the boundries that God has set because of His sovereignty.

I like your phrase "tensions in scripture". I think we have seen many discussed tonight.

 

[TCGreek]

I don't think it disproves my position any more than other scriptures like Matt 23:37 disproves yours. What I see all through scripture is God's predestination and man's free will. I will say that our free will is only as free as God ordains. We are always held inside the boundries that God has set because of His sovereignty.

I like your phrase "tensions in scripture". I think we have seen many discussed tonight.

Well, as students of church history, we both know that we will have to go into glory with this difference.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, as students of church history, we both know that we will have to go into glory with this difference.

We have our differences, but we also agree on many, many things. I have learned many things about Calvinism and agree on many points made by people like Spurgeon.

I've enjoyed our discussions.

 

[TCGreek]

We have our differences, but we also agree on many, many things. I have learned many things about Calvinism and agree on many points made by people like Spurgeon.

I've enjoyed our discussions.

1. Yeah me too, as I said before, you'll make a solid Calvinist. But we'll have to shake hands on this one. :thumbs:

2. At first it was difficult for me to accept the doctrines of grace, but I would understand them from Scripture.

 

[rjprince]

AmyG,

Matt 23:37 points out the difference between the "desire" of God and the "sovereign" plan of God. It is just like 2Pet 3:9 which tells us that God is

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It is like where Jesus prayed,

"Father let this cup pass from me"

on one hand, yet said to Peter,

"Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" (John 18:11)

and

Luke 22:22 - And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Part of Jesus did not want to go to the cross, even though He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8). But to accomplish a sovereign purpose there is a distinction between God's desire and His plan.

In regard to Israel in Matt 23:37, God allowed them to continue in the blindness and rebellion for His purpose, in spite of His desire to see them come to Him. This is a matter of a sovereign God choosing not to influence unbelievers to come to Christ. He could just as easily drawn them to Himself at this time, it that had better fit with His sovereign plan. "Who hath known the mind of the Lord"?

Sure, we may not agree this side of glory, and citations may not "prove" anything, but they do make some pretty strong statements, IHMO.

Personally, I believe there is great value in debating these points for it forces us to reexamine the Word and test whether or not we can support our positions thereby (Acts 17:11).

 

[Linda64]

In regard to Israel in Matt 23:37, God allowed them to continue in the blindness and rebellion for His purpose, in spite of His desire to see them come to Him. This is a matter of a sovereign God choosing not to influence unbelievers to come to Christ. He could just as easily drawn them to Himself at this time, it that had better fit with His sovereign plan. "Who hath known the mind of the Lord"?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

This is NOT a matter of a sovereign God choosing not to influence unbelievers--by doing this you are painting God as being a tyrant. If God has to INFLUENCE unbelievers to continue in blindness and rebellion for His purpose, then He isn't very sovereign at all. Man's will does NOT negate God's sovereignty.

Does God offer a piece of bread to someone who is hungry, and then say "No, you are not "predestined/elected" to have this bread, but you are "predestined/elected" to go hungry to fulfill My purpose." What kind of a God is that? Is this a God who would invite ALL to come to Him:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:28-30)

You are teaching what Calvinism calls "double predestination". It specifically says in Matthew 23:37 "but ye would not"--it doesn't say "I would not allow it". The problem was not that the unbelieving Jews were not chosen for salvation. Christ would have saved all of them. The problem was that they rejected Him. The problem was the will. Christ would, but they would not. Man has the capability to reject God, and He has the capability to receive God. That is taught from the beginning of the Bible to the end.