Foreknowledge

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

But there you go again accusing Free Willers of making God a robot to man. :godisgood: Free Willers don’t believe that nor do they promote man in control of God. :thumbs:

This issue as I see it: If a Fatalist accepts the meaning Free Willers use then “Fatalism” dies. The Shell is not Free Will but Fatalism,jor Philosophical Calvinism, which causes the sickness known as Tulipitis. Tulipitis can be CURED.

Fatalist continue to force their definitions on common understanding and meaning. As long as Fatalist can continue this the debate with false “definitions” the debate will go on. Bible Believers are obliged to counter these false claims and combat the fatalitistic "shell" which is a philosophical man made prideful argument.

I am not sure where you are getting your terminology but I would like to offer you a correction or two. First, fatalism is a godless philosophy that says what ever will be will be. The impersonal force known as fate is often referred to as the force that ultimately controls our future. But fatalism should be distinguished from determinism. Determinism is system that recognizes the existance of cause and effect. If you do this then that will happen. In a deterministic system it can be known before hand what will eventually happen due to the nature of cause and effect.

God has set in place a deterministic system. The future is known to God and therefore it is already set. However the events that lead up to the future are very much subject to cause and effect. Those who ultimately believe in Jesus as their Savior are the ones who are elect. Both Arminians and Calvinist agree on that much. What is in question is the how, that is how do they come to that knowledge and belief. There in lies the entire debate and as I have suggested the truth is found only in the mind of God. Both sides feel they are of the right mind but it is open to interpretation because both sides have based their understanding on Scripture.

Which brings up my second point. For you to suggest that Calvinism is philosophical system analogous to fatalism is absurd. For one, the best and brightest theologians historically have been Calvinist, Augustine, Calvin, Knox, Strong, Dagg, Murray, Carl Henry, etc. So for you to suggest that Calvinism is philosophical system implies a certain secular leaning or absence of Biblical truth or a reliance reason over Biblical truth. Also, it is extreme unfair as well as uninformed of you to make that assertion since the system known as Calvinism is attempt to genuinely wrestle with the Bible. Arminianism is a system just a Calvinism is a system that attempts to formulate an overall view salvation based on what the Bible teaches. The Calvinist have a hermeneutical approach that differs from the Arminians but that makes them no less Biblical.

 

[webdog]

For one, the best and brightest theologians historically have been Calvinist, Augustine, Calvin, Knox, Strong, Dagg, Murray, Carl Henry, etc.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Yeah, I know webdog you will have to take my word on that one:tongue3:

 

[Jarthur001]

Yeah, I know webdog you will have to take my word on that one:tongue3:

SIDE NOTE:

Wow...i missed all the action. 3 threads closed this morning.

Anyway...I'll take your word for it brother.

You also said...

Arminianism is a system just a Calvinism is a system that attempts to formulate an overall view salvation based on what the Bible teaches. The Calvinist have a hermeneutical approach that differs from the Arminians but that makes them no less Biblical.

Arminianism I do not hold to, however, it is a worth looking at and debating. The full freewill system, which we see posted on here by some, is well...troubling

 

[psalms109:31]

Foreknew

God foreknew so He also predestined them.

We know foreknowledge comes first, before He predestined.

If God gets what He wants then I men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then the universalist would be right. But the truth of the matter is He foreknew who believed and predestined believers to salvation.

We need to take all of scripture into concideration and live by every word ythat comes from the mouth of God. The devil tried to test Jesus with scripture. The way Jesus defeating them is by living by every word that comes from the mouth of God, not just the few that men and the devil wants to feed them.

God wants all men to be saved, so if you do not come to Jesus, you can only blame yourself.

I'm not a free willer, but God has the right to give us a choice and the consequences for our own actions. He does not incline our hearts to believe, but gives us a clear choice

God has placed before you life and death, so choose Jesus and live.

 

[GordonSlocum]

You know as far as "the brightest theologians historically" is your opinion. The only reason for any consideration of their literature is to point out false doctrine.

I serve a living savior, not dead false teachers.

You have an opinion, and I have offered mine. To me Calvinism is a fatalistic system of corruption and misinterpretation.

For every dry, dead, Calvinist church there are thousands of Bible believing soul winning church across America that teach Biblical Truth and not Philosophical Calvinism that leads to Tulipitis (a fatalistic non-Scriptural philosophy) - Not found in the Bible. The God of my bible loves the whole world and wants to save the whole world. The God of the Holy Scripture desires all to be saved and that all come to repentance. He did not pick a few out of the many and then refuse to save anyone else.

You can take the good from the bad of the past miss guided people you mentions and rest on it forever but it will never change The Truth.

[Off-topic, inflammatoroy remarks deleted. rsr]

You see my dear friend I have an opinion too. I choose the Bible over Calvin or any other so call miss guided soul past or present.

The sickness of Tulipitis can be CURED - People that are CURED follow the Bible not Calvin.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You know as far as "the brightest theologians historically" is your opinion. The only reason for any consideration of their literature is to point out false doctrine.

I serve a living savior, not dead false teachers.

You have an opinion, and I have offered mine. To me Calvinism is a fatalistic system of corruption and misinterpretation.

For every dry, dead, Calvinist church there are thousands of Bible believing soul winning church across America that teach Biblical Truth and not Philosophical Calvinism that leads to Tulipitis (a fatalistic non-Scriptural philosophy) - Not found in the Bible. The God of my bible loves the whole world and wants to save the whole world. The God of the Holy Scripture desires all to be saved and that all come to repentance. He did not pick a few out of the many and then refuse to save anyone else.

You can take the good from the bad of the past miss guided people you mentions and rest on it forever but it will never change The Truth.

In my opinion if Calvinist had control of the Government we would find ourselves back in the days of Calvin himself. Those of us who are non-Calvinist would be burned at the stake, tortured on the rack, drown for our refusal to honor infant baptism and more. Any place in the world be it a false Christians position as Calvin or another religion - when any group of people can dictate to the State and it carry out the wishes of misguided souls like Calvin - the free believers are and will be in danger of dying and suffering at their hands.

You see my dear friend I have an opinion too. I choose the Bible over Calvin or any other so call miss guided soul past or present.

The sickness of Tulipitis can be CURED - People that are CURED follow the Bible not Calvin.

Do you think calvinist serve calvin instead of God? Do you think they are lost? Do you think they serve another god? That is a great way to be banned from this forum. Keep it up.

 

[GordonSlocum]

I am not sure where you are getting your terminology but I would like to offer you a correction or two. First, fatalism is a godless philosophy that says what ever will be will be. The impersonal force known as fate is often referred to as the force that ultimately controls our future. But fatalism should be distinguished from determinism. Determinism is system that recognizes the existance of cause and effect. If you do this then that will happen. In a deterministic system it can be known before hand what will eventually happen due to the nature of cause and effect.

Here is the broader use of the term. As you can see I have correctly use the term

3 results for: fatalism

fatalism 
–noun
1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate: Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.

2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Origin: 1670–80
—Related forms
fatalist, noun
fatalistic, adjective
fatalistically, adverb

fa·tal·ism
n.
The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.

Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

fatal·ist n.
fatal·istic adj.
fatal·isti·cal·ly adv.


fatalism
n : a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them


The view that God determines the fate of any who are not willing and in light of the fact that God desires all to be saved and all come to repentance then take the position that God disregards his "DESIRE" whereby destroying His Own Holiness by saving only a few of the all are going to be picked to salvation is really crazy. Calvinism teaches that God picked some and will not give the others a chance to be saved thus fatalistically determining the few that are saved and the many that are not saved. Yes Calvinism is a fatalistic philosophy and my definition and understanding are correct.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here is the broader use of the term. As you can see I have correctly use the term

3 results for: fatalism

fatalism 
–noun
1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate: Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.

2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Origin: 1670–80
—Related forms
fatalist, noun
fatalistic, adjective
fatalistically, adverb

fa·tal·ism
n.
The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.

Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

fatal·ist n.
fatal·istic adj.
fatal·isti·cal·ly adv.


fatalism
n : a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them

How would you exeget Psalms 139? Do you not believe God is omniscient. By the way.... you have not answered my other questions... will you ignore this one?

 

[Jarthur001]

Here is the broader use of the term. As you can see I have correctly use the term

3 results for: fatalism

fatalism?
–noun
1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate: Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.

2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Origin: 1670–80
—Related forms
fatalist, noun
fatalistic, adjective
fatalistically, adverb

fa·tal·ism
n.
The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.

Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

fatal·ist n.
fatal·istic adj.
fatal·isti·cal·ly adv.


fatalism
n : a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them

Don't be silly. God is not even part of what you read about. As said before...it is Godless, where as Calvinism is God based. God controls all. Get it?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here is the broader use of the term. As you can see I have correctly use the term

3 results for: fatalism

fatalism 
–noun
1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate: Her fatalism helped her to face death with stoic calm.

2. Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Origin: 1670–80
—Related forms
fatalist, noun
fatalistic, adjective
fatalistically, adverb

fa·tal·ism
n.
The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.

Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

fatal·ist n.
fatal·istic adj.
fatal·isti·cal·ly adv.


fatalism
n : a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them


The view that God determines the fate of any who are not willing and in light of the fact that God desires all to be saved and all come to repentance then take the position that God disregards his "DESIRE" whereby destroying His Own Holiness by saving only a few of the all are going to be picked to salvation is really crazy. Calvinism teaches that God picked some and will not give the others a chance to be saved thus fatalistically determining the few that are saved and the many that are not saved. Yes Calvinism is a fatalistic philosophy and my definition and understanding are correct.

Shows you do not understand calvinism. Calvinist believe God's call to repent is a general call that goes out to all. Whosoever will. Stop with the dishonest misrepresentations please. Also, please quit questioning people's salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

"Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov's idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!'" - Charles Spurgeon

It does not look to me as if Spurgeon believed like you fellows do. He said to "win souls". That don't sound like a Calvinist statement to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

The view that God determines the fate of any who are not willing and in light of the fact that God desires all to be saved and all come to repentance then take the position that God disregards his "DESIRE" whereby destroying His Own Holiness by saving only a few of the all are going to be picked to salvation is really crazy. Calvinism teaches that God picked some and will not give the others a chance to be saved thus fatalistically determining the few that are saved and the many that are not saved. Yes Calvinism is a fatalistic philosophy and my definition and understanding are correct.

Sorry, but this is wrong too. Election never stops anyone from coming to Christ. All are welcome.

You need to read a book on Calvinism, if you are going to talk about it. If you want a book list, let me know.

 

[reformedbeliever]

"Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov's idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!'" - Charles Spurgeon

It does not look to me as if Spurgeon believed like you fellows do. He said to "win souls". That don't sound like a Calvinist statement to me.

Are you serious bro bob? You don't think calvinist believe in evangelism? You really don't know what we believe do you?

 

[Jarthur001]

"Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov's idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!'" - Charles Spurgeon

It does not look to me as if Spurgeon believed like you fellows do. He said to "win souls". That don't sound like a Calvinist statement to me.

Then you are wrong bob. We are told to preach the word....it is God that does the saving. If I remember right, it was you and webdog the "freewillers" that claimed more then just once, that there is no need to send a preacher. Am I right? This would be easy to find...for it has been said more then once.

 

[Brother Bob]

"If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one GO there UNWARNED and UNPRAYED for." - Charles Spurgeon

Will you be there to try and hold the non-elect out of hell, believeing that it is impossible according to your belief?

Our one aim is to win souls

According to your belief would this not make God unSovereign?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Will you be there to try and hold the non-elect out of hell, believeing that it is impossible according to your belief?


According to your belief would this not make God unSovereign?

Are you addressing me or Spurgeon? :laugh:
Please make yourself clear.

 

[Brother Bob]

Spurgeon already said what he will do, I was asking you. If you had to decide whether I was addressing a dead man or you then you must not think too much of yourself.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Spurgeon already said what he will do, I was asking you. If you had to decide whether I was addressing a dead man or you then you must not think too much of yourself.

Lol. Ok bro bob. I have compassion for the lost. If not by God's sovereign grace, I would be. I do not want the worst person on the face of the earth to ever have to spend eternity in hell. My biggest question for God is; why didn't you save them all? You have the same question bob. You believe people are elect due to God's foreknowledge of what they would believe. How about those who God, in His foreknowledge, knew would never come to faith, and allowed them to come into existence anyway. I have compassion for those too.... don't you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Lol. Ok bro bob. I have compassion for the lost. If not by God's sovereign grace, I would be. I do not want the worst person on the face of the earth to ever have to spend eternity in hell. My biggest question for God is; why didn't you save them all? You have the same question bob. You believe people are elect due to God's foreknowledge of what they would believe. How about those who God, in His foreknowledge, knew would never come to faith, and allowed them to come into existence anyway. I have compassion for those too.... don't you?

Of course I do but according to my belief they are the ones who chose evil over good and God just saw it.
Spurgeon said to go and "win souls". How can a Calvinist "win souls" if they are predestinated. Does God need your help?