Foreknowledge

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I repeat, so you believe that people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus as their Savior? Is that what you are saying?

All people that believe in God of the Bible can go to heaven according to the dispensation they live in. We are not told everything in the Bible. Example: Melchizeidek is an interesting individual. We don't know a lot about him. Also, in Noah's day we have very little information to go on but we have some inferences that suggest all are preached to. Did they believe in the name of Jesus. No. The gospel then was the message Noah preached. This would be the same in all previous generation up to Christ, and I would take it into the transition of the church as well.

So to answer you question the way you ask it is Yes old testament saints did not understand or know to believe in the name Jesus. The object of faith is the Gospel God requires of then which all point to Christ.

Because God desires all to be saved and all to repent I see this as to all people at all times everywhere.

Now would you please answer mine here it is again.

Here is the question again

X = all the people of all time

Y = a small part of all the the People of all time

Z= the ones that are not Y

God picked Y
God is not going to pick Z

True of false.

I answered your first question as yes. This second scenario needs further explanation. What do you mean by Z?

Now here is the problem with your response to my question: Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23; Isaiah 53.

If left to our own devices we will not seek God. So apart from the knowledge of Jesus Christ no one will be saved.

Based on your thinking why would we send missionaries to China if they do not need to hear the Gospel in order to be saved?

As far as your suggestion that people alive today are held to the same standards as those of the OT, you fail to recognize that Israel had special revelation from God but the pagan nations did not. Hebrews 11 makes clear that anyone who was accounted righteous before God did so based on personal faith in God.

How do you respond to Romans 10?

14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The gospel is indispensable for faith in Christ and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Not all people have your theorized chance and that is major flaw in your critique of Calvinism. You are either going to have to concede that you believe in the exclusive truth claim of the Bible or you are going to fall into a camp known as Inclusivist, which believe that good Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhist all go to heaven.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

God by His own will and good pleasure is going to save all who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, but believers have been predestined to salvation.

That is where the foreknowledge is.

God foreknew so He also predestined.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

He wants all men to be saved and made us the messenger.

God made a simple plan, that men are trying to complicate.

It is so simple a child can understand.

God has given to us what to believe in through His word, now it is your choice what you do with it.

God loves everyone of you, God has not excluded any of you from His gift, what ever these men might say.

They have no idea what they are doing just as saul before he became Paul. He thought he was doing the will of God also.

The will of God is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has not inclined your heart to believe as the canon of dort says, God has given you a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

 

[Jarthur001]

God by His own will and good pleasure is going to save all who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, but believers have been predestined to salvation.

That is where the foreknowledge is.

God foreknew so He also predestined.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

He wants all men to be saved and made us the messenger.

God made a simple plan, that men are trying to complicate.

It is so simple a child can understand.

God has given to us what to believe in through His word, now it is your choice what you do with it.

God loves everyone of you, God has not excluded any of you from His gift, what ever these men might say.

They have no idea what they are doing just as saul before he became Paul. He thought he was doing the will of God also.

The will of God is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has not inclined your heart to believe as the canon of dort says, God has given you a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

Most of this has already been addressed. One only needs to read the full thread.

 

[Brother Bob]

God by His own will and good pleasure is going to save all who believe.

We are not predestined to believe, but believers have been predestined to salvation.

That is where the foreknowledge is.

God foreknew so He also predestined.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

He wants all men to be saved and made us the messenger.

God made a simple plan, that men are trying to complicate.

It is so simple a child can understand.

God has given to us what to believe in through His word, now it is your choice what you do with it.

God loves everyone of you, God has not excluded any of you from His gift, what ever these men might say.

They have no idea what they are doing just as saul before he became Paul. He thought he was doing the will of God also.

The will of God is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has not inclined your heart to believe as the canon of dort says, God has given you a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

Well said Psalms:

 

[GordonSlocum]

Brother Bob, listened to one of your songs and will listen to the rest later. Enjoyed it very much.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Gordon, it is not your typical singing. It is mountain type singing.

 

[l_PETE_l]

"Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov's idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!'" - Charles Spurgeon

It does not look to me as if Spurgeon believed like you fellows do. He said to "win souls". That don't sound like a Calvinist statement to me.

It is our firm belief, that what is commonly called Calvinism, is neither more nor less than the good old gospel of the Puritans, the Martyrs, the Apostles, and of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Spurgeon, C. H. 1998. Vol. 1: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 1 (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Spurgeon's Sermons. Ages Software: Albany, OR

I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitfield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of those Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school, we can trace our descent from the Apostles. It is that vein of free grace running through the sermonising of Baptists, which has saved us as a denomination. Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are. We can run a golden link from hence up to Jesus Christ himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can say to them, where will you find holier and better men in the world?
Spurgeon, C. H. 1998. Vol. 1: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 1 (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Spurgeon's Sermons. Ages Software: Albany, OR

 

[GordonSlocum]

Picked? Picked for what? President? Mrs. USA? I would think that God has the right to *pick* whom ever He chooses wouldn't you? After all, its His creation. Doesn't the potter have the right over the clay to make one unto honor and one unto dishonor? I'd love to see you exeget Romans 9. Wait....... i'm still waiting on Psalms 139 huh? Good day.

OK, I have backed off on "charged words and terms" It is your turn to back off.

Let have a civil exchange of ideas.


Here is the question again

X = all the people of all time

Y = a small part of all the the People of all time

Z= the ones that are not Y

God picked Y
God is not going to pick Z

True of false.

 

[GordonSlocum]

I answered your first question as yes. This second scenario needs further explanation. What do you mean by Z?

OK you answered yes to Y the elect

Z is all that Y is not

Z folks can not be saved. God is not going to save them and they can not save themselves according to your view.

Is that a yes to Z as well?

 

[l_PETE_l]

part of a Spurgeon soul winning sermon

And now come, I must plead with you, and I will use a few reasons to induce you to believe this truth. They shall be Scripture reasons May God bless them to you, sinner. If thou callest on Christ’s name thou wilt be saved. I will tell thee first, thou wilt be saved because thou art elect. No man ever called on Christ’s name yet who was not elected. That doctrine of election which puzzles many and frightens more, never need do so. If you believe, you are elect, if you call on the name of Christ you are elect, if you feel yourself to be a sinner, and put your trust in Christ you are elect. Now, the elect must be saved, for them there is no perdition. God has predestinated them unto eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of Christ’s hands. God does not choose men, and then cast them away; he does not elect them, and then cast them into the pit. Now, you are elect, you could not have called if you had not been elected your election is the cause of your calling, and inasmuch as you have called, an do call upon the name of God, you are God’s elect. And from his book not death nor hell can ever erase your name. ’Tis an omnipotent decree. Jehovah’s will be done! His chosen must be saved, though earth and hell oppose, his strong hand shall break their ranks, and lead his people through. You are one of these people. You shall at last stand before his throne, and see his smiling face in glory ever lasting, because you are elect.
Spurgeon, C. H. 1998. Vol. 3: Spurgeon's Sermons: Volume 3 (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Spurgeon's Sermons. Ages Software: Albany, OR

 

[reformedbeliever]

OK, I have backed off on "charged words and terms" It is your turn to back off.

Let have a civil exchange of ideas.


Here is the question again

X = all the people of all time

Y = a small part of all the the People of all time

Z= the ones that are not Y

God picked Y
God is not going to pick Z

True of false.

Back off of what? Have I questioned your salvation? Have I called your doctrine the doctrine from hell? Give me a break. Why not show me your exegesis of Psalms 139, and after you are through with that, Romans 9. Then I'll think about playing your game. By the way. Try to be specific and use sentences that make sense. Go back and proof read before you hit the submit button. I'll ask again.... picked for what? You make absolutely no sense. What is true of false?

 

[GordonSlocum]

Now here is the problem with your response to my question: Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23; Isaiah 53.

If left to our own devices we will not seek God. So apart from the knowledge of Jesus Christ no one will be saved

Now sure what you are asking here. I see everyone as a sinner. I see Jesus as the savior of all mankind.

If there is a specific question perhaps I can answer it.

Depravity to me is not inability to respond to God. God seeks us and We don't seek God. Jesus said I will draw all men. I believe this has been true from the fall. Drawing is not saving. I don't have all the answers to who God works in the remotest parts of the world where populations don't have the same access to media. I do believe that some how some way they are given "revelation" of the truth. Not new revelation as it pertains to Scripture, that is complete as I see it.

Paul address the Athenians who worshiped an un-know god. Paul told them it was Jesus.

On several occasions Missionaries have related stories similar to Paul's of different peoples around the glob. God provided to those people the means whereby thy were able to hear the Gospel.

Before the Cross, you had examples like Nineveh, and Melchizedek and Noah. We are not told everything and the small portions we are told are few and limited.

All the elections passages I agree with. I process them based on foreknowledge. I don't accept the Calvinistic definition and interpretation.

God's plan includes free choice. To me with out man having free choice and because of the purpose of God as we are told by Peter that He is not willing any to parish ad all to come to repentance that the only way to reconcile the two Election and Universalism is to reject both and see it as I do. The only way to resolve this tension is to accept the view that man can accept the offer. I don't see this as a work. The offer is free and man simply accepts or rejects.

I see each man when they are told the truth that it is the light (truth) whereby man can make a decision about.

Man is depraved. He is not looking for God. He does not want God.

But God is seeking man and when God reveals to man the gospel Man then is responsible to believe or reject and that is not a work.

Man has the capacity to believe. If faith is a gift it is from birth as part of the image of God in man.

I know short story long.

 

[GordonSlocum]

As far as your suggestion that people alive today are held to the same standards as those of the OT, you fail to recognize that Israel had special revelation from God but the pagan nations did not. Hebrews 11 makes clear that anyone who was accounted righteous before God did so based on personal faith in God.

We have Nineveh and Melchizedek, and Noah and remember God was still verbally taking to Cain and Able. These examples of communication to these people suggest that there was an exchange between God and man.

Israel existed when the situation with Nineveh happened. So God is dealing with the not Jewish people and with the Jews. It has to raise some very legitimate questions.

Abraham believe the revelation he had. Did he actually understand about Jesus? I don't think so. His gospel was believing the promise.

The salvation of the people of Nineveh was different from Abraham. The people in Nineveh were told to repent of sins and turn to God. That is all we have and they repented and turned to God. I see that as salvation.

I hope that helps.

 

[GordonSlocum]

The gospel is indispensable for faith in Christ and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Not all people have your theorized chance and that is major flaw in your critique of Calvinism. You are either going to have to concede that you believe in the exclusive truth claim of the Bible or you are going to fall into a camp known as Inclusivist, which believe that good Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhist all go to heaven.

No not so. That if I may is how you would see it not me.

I believe I answered the questions you raise in this statement in my previous post.

The gospel to OT saints did not use the name Christ. It was the message they were call upon to embrace or trust in. Faith is always necessary. The object from the human side is the revelation given by God to the ones hearing.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Back off of what? Have I questioned your salvation? Have I called your doctrine the doctrine from hell? Give me a break. Why not show me your exegesis of Psalms 139, and after you are through with that, Romans 9. Then I'll think about playing your game. By the way. Try to be specific and use sentences that make sense. Go back and proof read before you hit the submit button. I'll ask again.... picked for what? You make absolutely no sense. What is true of false?

What is taking place with you is a classic example of what I have heard all my life and experience all my life with respect to Calvinist.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Lol. Ok bro bob. I have compassion for the lost. If not by God's sovereign grace, I would be. I do not want the worst person on the face of the earth to ever have to spend eternity in hell. My biggest question for God is; why didn't you save them all? You have the same question bob. You believe people are elect due to God's foreknowledge of what they would believe. How about those who God, in His foreknowledge, knew would never come to faith, and allowed them to come into existence anyway. I have compassion for those too.... don't you?

The difference from my side and Bob's side is that all who come into existence have the capacity to believe.

Calvinism does not believe that. The ones that are lost can not believe and only some of them are picked out for salvation and the rest are on their way to hell.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

We have Nineveh and Melchizedek, and Noah and remember God was still verbally taking to Cain and Able. These examples of communication to these people suggest that there was an exchange between God and man.

Israel existed when the situation with Nineveh happened. So God is dealing with the not Jewish people and with the Jews. It has to raise some very legitimate questions.

Abraham believe the revelation he had. Did he actually understand about Jesus? I don't think so. His gospel was believing the promise.

The salvation of the people of Nineveh was different from Abraham. The people in Nineveh were told to repent of sins and turn to God. That is all we have and they repented and turned to God. I see that as salvation.

I hope that helps.

On the one hand you say that all people have a chance to be saved. On the other hand you say that no one seeks God. Both cannot be true.

Read my post about the OT. I said that special revelation was needed. In every case of someone in the OT who is made right with God they had special revelation from God through either direct revelation from God or through a prophet of God whom God spoke directly to and gave instructions for him to preach to a certain group. Nineveh is not an example you can use to argue against my position. They had Jonah. If what you were saying was true then Nineveh would not have needed Jonah.

I will make this very simple for you. You are criticizing Calvinism because you do not believe they give people a fair chance to respond to Salvation. You see Calvinism as excluding much of the world.

There are really three camps that Christianity falls into: Inclusivism, Exclusivism and Universalism. Now if no one seeks God and if special revelation is necessary then there is a brutal fact that you have to face. If you are an Inclusivist you realize that not all pagan people have special revelation, so you believe that they find God through whatever religion to which they are exposed. If they are a Muslim then they get to heaven through being a good Muslim for example. If you are a Universalist you do not believe that special revelation is necessary because everyone goes to heaven, including Hitler. However, if you are an Exclusivist you recognize that no one seeks God and if let unchecked all have sinned and will die and go to hell unless they hear and believe the gospel.

Not everyone in the world hears the gospel. You said that they respond to God as they did in the OT times. To which I told you that in the OT they have special revelation and responded to God by faith based on the special revelation. Today our special revelation includes Jesus Christ and the gospel. So today in order for someone to be saved they must believe in Jesus Christ.

So I will ask you again, can someone go to heaven today who does not believe in Jesus Christ? The OT times were different because they did not yet have the fullness of the revelation of Jesus Christ. The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. So in the OT they had to believe in the God of Jacob. Today we understand that the God of Jacob is Jesus and he died on the cross and rose from the grave. Now at present and since the time of the NT, billions of people in Asia India and the Middle East have died or are going to die without ever having heard about Jesus and without every having had access to special revelation, ie the Bible.

I have set the table. You are either an Inclusivist or Exclusivist or an Universalist. Which are you?

If you are an Exclusivist and you believe that a part from the Word of God you cannot be saved then you have to except that not every has had a chance to be saved. So if you are an Arminian who is an Exclusivist you are really no different than Calvinist in terms of the fact that not everyone has a chance. The only difference between the Arminian and the Calvinist is that one believes that not everyone had a chance by design and the other believes that not everyone had a chance because man was irresponsible with the opportunity given to him to spread the gospel.

 

[Jarthur001]

Gordon...

I don't have all the answers to who God works in the remotest parts of the world where populations don't have the same access to media. I do believe that some how some way they are given "revelation" of the truth. Not new revelation as it pertains to Scripture, that is complete as I see it.

Lets say this is true, but you have yet to prove it, you would still have to say God did not give those in China before taylor went there, the same grace as the man born in the Bible belt. right?

Now if you can admit this, then there are still others that never heard. But it goes beyond just hearing. Please read the passage below.

1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

****God is saying He gave up Egypt as a ransom for his people!! Do you understand what this means? And if you remember...this is what happened. The waters parted...Gods people went though...and the waters came down on the army of Egypt. God killed other men, so that He could save HIS people. Lets read on..

4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

***** Now this is what the nations hear God say about His people after He gathers them together..


10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Now get this....if you get nothing else.
Notice why God chose as clearly stated in verse 10.

God chose that they may KNOW!! Did you see that? God chose that His people may KNOW Him.. and that is not all...there is more.
God chose that they may believe. What? God did not choose because He foresaw? nope..that is a lie of the freewill group.
God foresaw because He choose. God choose for them to believe!!

and.......God choose so that His choosen people would understand that He is God.


Pretty good stuff...no?


In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

God chose that they may KNOW!! Did you see that? God chose that His people may KNOW Him.. and that is not all...there is more.
God chose that they may believe. What? God did not choose because He foresaw? nope..that is a lie of the freewill group.
God foresaw because He choose. God choose for them to believe!!

Um...doesn't the text state so that they may believe? It doesn't say He chose them to believe, as you conclude.

 

[GordonSlocum]

If you are an Inclusivist you realize that not all pagan people have special revelation, so you believe that they find God through whatever religion to which they are exposed. If they are a Muslim then they get to heaven through being a good Muslim for example.

God knows all the possibilities. If a person would have chosen this instead of that. In other words if a person in some remotest part of the world would freely believe if they heard about Christ then I personally believe some how some way God will provide the witness. The Missionaries I spoke of to me indicates that. I see God knowing all the possibilities. In his love and desire he knows weather or not every single individual would accept Christ or not. On that basis I believe God sovereignly coordinates circumstances to bring a witness to that person . Weather it was OT or NT God knows all that will believe and he elects them. Knowing they will believe He guides events and circumstance whereby that individual will hear the gospel and respond unto salvation.

I don’t fit into any of your terms or definitions.