Foreknowledge

[Jarthur001]

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

What is the REASON for the choosing???

 

[Brother Bob]

But He hath already seen this before they were ever born. You know that James.

And He is talking about His chosen people Israel of which you were no part of James.

Isa 43:10Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[webdog]

With no election, no one would have hope of salvation.

You are correct. If God hadn't sovereignly chose Abraham, and then subsequently Isaac and to branch off even further Jacob, the Messiah's lineage wouldn't be traced back to the "elect". The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was to come from a certain lineage, and He did just that. This is the true context of Romans 9-11.

 

[Jarthur001]

But He hath already seen this before they were ever born. You know that James.

yeah...good one Bob. That maybe your best twist of all time. But...the Bible really says..

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant

whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he

: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The reason for the choosing was that they would believe, not because God saw them believe. This also has another side. God did not choose others, and they cannot understand. WOW

God CHOSE them to know.
God Chose them to believe and this means others did not believe. Hey...dont take my word for it. Read the text. This is the point of the story.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are correct. If God hadn't sovereignly chose Abraham, and then subsequently Isaac and to branch off even further Jacob, the Messiah's lineage wouldn't be traced back to the "elect". The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was to come from a certain lineage, and He did just that. This is the true context of Romans 9-11.

you forgot one little thing...

where is the "hate" quote from that is found in romans 9?

 

[Brother Bob]

You can't lay claim to that James it belongs to the "elect" Israel of which Paul said He was. The rest around him including you were not part of that.

 

[Blammo]

yeah...good one Bob. That maybe your best twist of all time. But...the Bible really says..



The reason for the choosing was that they would believe, not because God saw them believe. This also has another side. God did not choose others, and they cannot understand. WOW

God CHOSE them to know.
God Chose them to believe and this means others did not believe. Hey...dont take my word for it. Read the text. This is the point of the story.

In the verse you are discussing, the chosen are the Jews. Did they all believe? Maybe you should read on...

 

[Jarthur001]

You can't lay claim to that James it belongs to the "elect" Israel of which Paul said He was. The rest around him including you were not part of that.

How does God choose?

Does He pick one over the other?

Does he pick so that they may believe?

Does He pick that they may know him?


Please say yes to all of these.

 

[webdog]

you forgot one little thing...

where is the "hate" quote from that is found in romans 9?

Where is the correct understanding of that word in context from the numerous times it has been explained to you?

 

[Jarthur001]

In the verse you are discussing, the chosen are the Jews. Did they all believe? Maybe you should read on...

nope....


But one day they will...

8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Where is the correct understanding of that word in context from the numerous times it has been explained to you?

oh...you mean this passage?

Malachi 1

or in romans 9?

In romans the word means hate. You say loved less. That is not right, but we can go with that if you want. It changes NOTHING.

 

[Blammo]

nope....


But one day they will...

Isaiah 43:22-28 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

 

[webdog]

oh...you mean this passage?

Malachi 1

or in romans 9?

In romans the word means hate. You say loved less. That is not right, but we can go with that if you want. It changes NOTHING.

It changes EVERYTHING. If God created a man to hate prior to them even being born, you are espousing hyper calvinism. I never said "loved less" btw, the word has multiple meanings.

 

[Jarthur001]

Isaiah 43:22-28 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Indeed...and I rest my case.

BTW...read the 1st part of the chapter as well.

Going home now...see you guys tonight. Man..i can just feeeeeel the love here.

 

[Jarthur001]

It changes EVERYTHING. If God created a man to hate prior to them even being born, you are espousing hyper calvinism. I never said "loved less" btw, the word has multiple meanings.

and what do you say it means now?

in the past you said loveless. You pick the word and I'll work with it.

 

[Brother Bob]

He was just showing Israel that He was the true God and not a false God James and they were His witnesses that it was indeed Him. He wanted them to know and believe that it was Him James is all that passage is saying.

Isaiah, chapter 43

"9": Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

"10": Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

"11": I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

"12": I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

"13": Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

:godisgood:

 

[webdog]

and what do you say it means now?

in the past you said loveless. You pick the word and I'll work with it.

The same way it's used here...

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, and even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.

 

[reformedbeliever]

It changes EVERYTHING. If God created a man to hate prior to them even being born, you are espousing hyper calvinism. I never said "loved less" btw, the word has multiple meanings.

Does God have foreknowledge? Yes. Does God know those who will never believe? Yes. Does He allow them to come into existence anyway. Yes. Answer: God creates man to hate. Unless of course He sends the ones He loves to hell.

 

[Brother Bob]

Does God have foreknowledge? Yes. Does God know those who will never believe? Yes. Does He allow them to come into existence anyway. Yes. Answer: God creates man to hate. Unless of course He sends the ones He loves to hell.

You speak as if it is later they come into existence but God see all in all at once.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You speak as if it is later they come into existence but God see all in all at once.

Of course He sees all at once.... but they don't come into existence until time for them to come into existence. Changes nothing.