Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
indeed....and why did God choose?
Is it really that hard for you to say???
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Foreknowledge
- Thread starter l_PETE_l
- Start date
indeed....and why did God choose?
Is it really that hard for you to say???
I think it is more than a case of God just seeing. Foreknowledge seems to be more than just that. What do you think about this part of the OP?
The word prognosis is also found in this sense in the writings of Paul, in cases where it is manifestly impossible to regard it as a mere intellectual foresight, not only because of Paul’s doctrine that election is absolutely sovereign (Eph 1:3, 4; Rom 9:11; 2 Tim 1:9), but also because of the contexts in which the term occurs.
In Rom 8:29, 30 the word “foreknow” occurs in immediate connection with God’s predestination of the objects of salvation. Those whom God foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son. Now the foreknowledge in this case cannot mean a mere prescience or foresight of faith (Meyer, Godet) or love (Weiss) in the subjects of salvation, which faith or love is supposed to determine the Divine predestination. This would not only contradict Paul’s view of the absolutely sovereign and gracious character of election, but is diametrically opposed to the context of this passage. These verses form a part of the encouragement which Paul offers his readers for their troubles, including their own inward weakness. The apostle tells them that they may be sure that all things work together for good to them that love God; and these are defined as being those whom God has called in accordance with His purpose. Their love to God is evidently their love as Christians, and is the result of a calling which itself follows from an eternal purpose, so that their Christian love is simply the means by which they may know that they have been the subjects of this calll. They have not come within the sphere of God’s love by their own choice, but have been “called” into this relationship by God, and that in accordance with an eternal purpose on His part.
What follows, therefore, must have as its motive simply to unfold and ground this assurance of salvation by tracing it all back to the “foreknowledge” of God. To regard this foreknowledge as contingent upon anything in man would thus be in flat contradiction with the entire context of the passage as well as its motive. The word “foreknowledge” here evidently has the pregnant sense which we found it to have in Peter. Hence, those whom God predestinates, calls, justifies and glorifies are just those whom He has looked upon with His sovereign love. To assign any other meaning to “foreknowledge” here would be out of accord with the usage of the term elsewhere in the New Testament when it is put in connection with predestination, and would contradict the purpose for which Paul introduces the passage, that is, to assure his readers that their ultimate salvation depends, not on their weakness, but on God’s sovereign love and grace and power.
It is equally impossible to give the word prognosis any other sense in the other passage where Paul uses it. In Rom 11:2, speaking of the Jews, Paul says that “God did not cast off his people which he foreknew." It is quite impossible to regard this as meaning that God had a foresight or mere prevision of some quality in Israel which determined His choice of them, not only because it is the teaching of the entire Scripture that God’s choice of Israel was sovereign and gracious, and not only because of the actual history of Israel, but also because of the context. Paul says that it would be absurd to suppose that God had cast off His people because He foreknew them, His foreknowledge of them being adduced as a ground for His not casting them off. Hence, the argument would have no force if anything in Israel, foreseen by God, were supposed to ground an assurance that He had not cast them off, because the context is full of the hardness of heart and unbelief of Israel. The foreknowledge here has evidently the same sense as in the former passage.
Foreknowledge, therefore, in the New Testament is more than mere prescience. It is practically identical with the Divine decree in two instances, and in the other places where the term occurs it denotes the sovereign loving regard out of which springs God’s predestination or election of men to salvation
The word prognosis is also found in this sense in the writings of Paul, in cases where it is manifestly impossible to regard it as a mere intellectual foresight, not only because of Paul’s doctrine that election is absolutely sovereign (Eph 1:3, 4; Rom 9:11; 2 Tim 1:9), but also because of the contexts in which the term occurs.
In Rom 8:29, 30 the word “foreknow” occurs in immediate connection with God’s predestination of the objects of salvation. Those whom God foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son. Now the foreknowledge in this case cannot mean a mere prescience or foresight of faith (Meyer, Godet) or love (Weiss) in the subjects of salvation, which faith or love is supposed to determine the Divine predestination. This would not only contradict Paul’s view of the absolutely sovereign and gracious character of election, but is diametrically opposed to the context of this passage. These verses form a part of the encouragement which Paul offers his readers for their troubles, including their own inward weakness. The apostle tells them that they may be sure that all things work together for good to them that love God; and these are defined as being those whom God has called in accordance with His purpose. Their love to God is evidently their love as Christians, and is the result of a calling which itself follows from an eternal purpose, so that their Christian love is simply the means by which they may know that they have been the subjects of this calll. They have not come within the sphere of God’s love by their own choice, but have been “called” into this relationship by God, and that in accordance with an eternal purpose on His part.
What follows, therefore, must have as its motive simply to unfold and ground this assurance of salvation by tracing it all back to the “foreknowledge” of God. To regard this foreknowledge as contingent upon anything in man would thus be in flat contradiction with the entire context of the passage as well as its motive. The word “foreknowledge” here evidently has the pregnant sense which we found it to have in Peter. Hence, those whom God predestinates, calls, justifies and glorifies are just those whom He has looked upon with His sovereign love. To assign any other meaning to “foreknowledge” here would be out of accord with the usage of the term elsewhere in the New Testament when it is put in connection with predestination, and would contradict the purpose for which Paul introduces the passage, that is, to assure his readers that their ultimate salvation depends, not on their weakness, but on God’s sovereign love and grace and power.
It is equally impossible to give the word prognosis any other sense in the other passage where Paul uses it. In Rom 11:2, speaking of the Jews, Paul says that “God did not cast off his people which he foreknew." It is quite impossible to regard this as meaning that God had a foresight or mere prevision of some quality in Israel which determined His choice of them, not only because it is the teaching of the entire Scripture that God’s choice of Israel was sovereign and gracious, and not only because of the actual history of Israel, but also because of the context. Paul says that it would be absurd to suppose that God had cast off His people because He foreknew them, His foreknowledge of them being adduced as a ground for His not casting them off. Hence, the argument would have no force if anything in Israel, foreseen by God, were supposed to ground an assurance that He had not cast them off, because the context is full of the hardness of heart and unbelief of Israel. The foreknowledge here has evidently the same sense as in the former passage.
Foreknowledge, therefore, in the New Testament is more than mere prescience. It is practically identical with the Divine decree in two instances, and in the other places where the term occurs it denotes the sovereign loving regard out of which springs God’s predestination or election of men to salvation
Jarthur001
Active Member
webdog said:
Ok..and so you DO want to use the word hate?? Its your pick...
should we now look at the verse in romans 9?
reformedbeliever
New Member
l_PETE_l said:
:thumbsup: Amen. He knows us in an intimate way.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
I like this...he was JUSt show...that is all He was doing...JUST showing.
Check out the text....The other nations have their witnesses..
But who is Gods witnesses????????
"10": Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Who is his witnesses??? It is the ones HE has chosen!!!
Now again...why was they choosen? Is it that hard to say??
Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
WHY DID GOD CHOOSE???????? is it that hard to say?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Of course He saw...but this is not WHY he chose!!
He knows for he choose. Do you understand?
Now would be a good time to believe the Bible and not change its meaning to fit your man made doctrine. Are ya with me??
Brother Bob
New Member
I have no idea why Israel were God's chosen people. They were very rebellious people but yet they were God's chosen people. That has absolutely nothing to do with us. He chose Noah and his sons and wives too but they found Grace in God's eyes through faith, maybe it was the same for Israel, faith? The scripture you mentioned is not about when God chose them for they were already chosen in times past.
I do know this that the first offering made to God was by faith and God received it. So Israel must of had faith for God to choose them. I do not deny that Israel were God's chosen people and never have, but in the passage you quote they were already chosen and in this passage he wanted to make sure they believed it was Him at that moment.
James I would be a fool to say that Israel were not God's chosen people when the Bible teaches they were. Also, God did give them a divorcement because of disobeidence but there were a few. But the Bible says all of Israel shall be saved but all Israel are not Israel. Because they were God's chosen people does not apply to us for He said He would turn from His people to a people that was not his and that is when the middle wall of partition was broken down and Salvation was offered to the Gentile people by the blood of Jesus. I really think this is where you Calvinist get confused. You want to be part of God's chosen people which was Israel and you have to come by Grace through faith. We as a people were aliens to the commonwealth of Isreal and were without God and had no hope in the world. If Jesus had not broken down the middle wall of partition we still would be lost and your plan of being pre-chosen would be right. But thanks be to God, that now Salvation has come to us also who will believe that Jesus is the Christ and repent.
I do know this that the first offering made to God was by faith and God received it. So Israel must of had faith for God to choose them. I do not deny that Israel were God's chosen people and never have, but in the passage you quote they were already chosen and in this passage he wanted to make sure they believed it was Him at that moment.
James I would be a fool to say that Israel were not God's chosen people when the Bible teaches they were. Also, God did give them a divorcement because of disobeidence but there were a few. But the Bible says all of Israel shall be saved but all Israel are not Israel. Because they were God's chosen people does not apply to us for He said He would turn from His people to a people that was not his and that is when the middle wall of partition was broken down and Salvation was offered to the Gentile people by the blood of Jesus. I really think this is where you Calvinist get confused. You want to be part of God's chosen people which was Israel and you have to come by Grace through faith. We as a people were aliens to the commonwealth of Isreal and were without God and had no hope in the world. If Jesus had not broken down the middle wall of partition we still would be lost and your plan of being pre-chosen would be right. But thanks be to God, that now Salvation has come to us also who will believe that Jesus is the Christ and repent.
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reformedbeliever
New Member
l_PETE_l said:
The important part of foreknowledge is having that relationship with Christ. I want you to read an allegory about God's choosing His bride. Read Ezekiel 16. He saw the infant squirming in its blood. The infant didn't say "here I am", "I have faith". No, it was by God's mercy and His choice that we are loved by Him. We do not deserve it any more than the whore in this allegory. But you know what? He sent His Son to pay for her sins. He loved her enough to do that. Wow. We are no better.
I'm beginning to think that all this Calvinism and anti-Calvinism may just be a case of men drawing lines in the dirt that God didn't draw. I think it's pretty clear that He chooses us in some way or another and that we also have the free will to accept or reject Him and that Jesus didn't die for just a chosen few. So, why not just leave it at that and accept that His ways are not our ways and maybe we don't have to perfectly understand just how He works everything around to accomplish our salvation.
Our job is to be telling about Him, as we go about our lives.
Les
Our job is to be telling about Him, as we go about our lives.
Les
reformedbeliever
New Member
lbaker said:
Hello Les. Welcome to the BB and to this discussion. I want to ask you; do you see anything wrong with the church today? I do. I feel that a lot of what is wrong with the church today is that the world is in the church. God's revealed truth is not being preached and taught. Most pastors and teachers will not teach about election or predestination, as they feel its too deeep or they themselves do not truly know what the bible teaches about the subject. They have not been taught because their teachers were not taught. We also beleive that a lot of what is being taught is a lie. Men make choices, but their choices are not sovereign over God. Many on the free will side will say that God will not violate their *free* will. That makes man's free will sovereign over God's. Who's will do you think is more important, man's will or God's?
I can tell by your response that you have not studied much on this subject. That is not a put down. You need to be informed about church history. Long ago Pelagius was branded a heretic for the very views that many people hold. I feel that easy believeism and cheap grace are a major part of the problem in the church today. I fight for the sovereignty of God and for God centered theology rather than man centered theology. If you have any more question about it feel free to ask, or send me a private message. Grace and peace
GordonSlocum
New Member
lbaker said:
A question was raised the other day addressing this issue. I am sure the pendulum swings both ways. Over emphasis on Deep Theological Truth and Over emphasis on all the other stuff.
When I look at my local church I see a balance. The balance is with all who attend (1) Sunday School, (2) Mid week Bible Study, (3) Sunday Preaching / Teaching
The whole "ball of wax" is there for the taking. The general attendance are not necessarily made up of all those who are faithful to attend Bible study where they learn specifics on doctrine.
The level at which our Pastor teaches is I believe right on in terms of accomplishing a well balanced teaching of God's word.
A pastor is not just called to teach but to evangelize. Notice what Paul says: II Peter 4:5. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
We have the balance or both. However, the balance is of course not the Calvinistic approach to Doctrine. It is what I would call strictly a Biblical Theology that recognizes the Whole Bible as God's Word and teaches is accordingly.
reformedbeliever
New Member
GordonSlocum said:
How many times has your pastor preached or taught Romans 9? How about Ephesians 1? I'll bet he has not preached or taught either one. If he had I'd sure be interested in a transcript. By the way.... weren't you going to exegete Psalms 139 and Romans 9 for us? You can do Ephesians 1 too if you like.
lbaker said:
I'm with you so far.
lbaker said:
Nope. There's nothing in the Bible that says this. And there's plenty in the Bible that contradicts it. "All the Father gives me SHALL come to me". There's no "if" about it. If you are given to Him, you SHALL come to Him.
lbaker said:
Because the glory of God is in the balance.
lbaker said:
Our very existence is to glorify God, and since the glory of God is robbed by man taking credit for choosing salvation of his own free will, the issue is important. That doesn't mean we should ignore evangelism, but it does mean it's important.
Jarthur001
Active Member
webdog said:
You brought up Romans 9. I said you mean the "hate" quote. You said you have been shown what "hate" means many times. I said you mean loveless? You said no...i it means many things. I said you pick the word you want to use in the passage and I'll work with it. You posted like its used in the verse..."You must HATE your parents". I said..ok but that is the word hate...is that what you want to use? You say..."you mean you hate your parent"?
Do you want to talk about Romans 9 or not?? Right now you are running from it. It was you that brought it up...
Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Bob, I do know why they were choosen. The text we have been talking about tells us. I am choosen. All of the church is choosen. Eph 1
Jarthur001
Active Member
GordonSlocum said:
Well which is it? Is it Biblical based, then it is Calvinistic.
Someday when you have time, I would like to go over what we believe. You have yet to ask, and you keep posting bogus views of what you THINK we believe.
GordonSlocum
New Member
32. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Chapter 9 can be to some very disconcerting. This whole discourse is summed up in Chapter 11:32
Notice above what it says.
With all the prior things said in the end every human being on earth are two things
Chapter 9 can be to some very disconcerting. This whole discourse is summed up in Chapter 11:32
Notice above what it says.
With all the prior things said in the end every human being on earth are two things
(1) shut up in disobedience
(2) "so that He (God) may show mercy to ALL.
This is the answer
WHY
(2) "so that He (God) may show mercy to ALL.
This is the answer
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