So you believe God offers grace to everyone? Or is it you believe God only draws a few "elect" as it is defined by reformed doctrine?
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Four questions for Calvinists.
- Thread starter glad4mercy
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So you believe God offers grace to everyone? Or is it you believe God only draws a few "elect" as it is defined by reformed doctrine?
Yes. The Gospel offer is to all. "Sufficient for all. Efficient only for those who believe."
God's Efficacious Grace will only be applied to those drawn by the Father to the Son.
Ok that does not answer my question. Does God draw everyone or only some?
Salvifically? No. If He did everybody would be saved. Unless the sinner is stronger than God. Which, I am sure, neither of us believe.
Do reformed folks have specific scripture to support this claim?
I am not Reformed, but I will try to answer your question. Rom. 1:6, Rom. 8:30, 1 Cor. 1:9, 2 Tim. 2:9, Eph. 4:4, 2 Pet. 1:3.
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).
Verse 44 concludes with “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” Notice that the one who is drawn is also raised by Christ. Unless you are a Universalist, you cannot maintain a position that says God draws all people and keep this verse in its proper context.
In the end, as much as we may dislike the answer, Scripture answers in the negative.
I want to thank you. Every once in a while I forget why I had stopped conversing with certain people. time goes by and I move on no longer thinking about the rude behavior of other posters. Then, just like this post here, I engage them and I am quickly reminded. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Is this your way of saying you can't answer? What part is rude or inappropriate?
I said:
Unless you are a Universalist, you cannot maintain a position that says God draws all people and keep this verse in its proper context.
If the bible is true, that Christ will raise up those the Father drew, does that not mean that all the Father drew are saved and thus raised up? And does that also mean the opposite, that those who are not raised up are those whom God did not draw?
You know, you keep saying you want scripture to support my position but when I give you that scripture you ignore it and make baseless accusations against me. Why is that?
Please show me where John 6:27-40 is misunderstood. Let's deal with the scriptures and refrain from meaningless personal attacks.
Here is The typical excuse of someone who cannot defend his rash statements, and in fact is looking to withdraw like a turtle from the discussion. Of course everyone else but him is rude and arrogant,lol
First, I don't read anywhere that God's giving of the Spirit is conditional upon anything but His will.
The Spirit is given. Reception is passive. What did you you do to receive life? What role did you play in your birth? There may be a number of conditions that have to be met for a living birth, but none are in your power to meet, so your identification thereof is clinical only, and not at all part of the operation.
The Spirit is a Person. He does the will of the Father. And that will is the only condition for His work.
I came across this today in J.C. Ryle's Expository Thoughts on Luke 4:25-30.
Of all the doctrines of the Bible none is so offensive to human nature as the doctrine of God's sovereignty. To be told that God is great, and just, and holy, and pure, man can bear. But to be told that "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy"--that He "gives no account of His matters," that it is "not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy"--these are truths that natural man cannot stand. They often call forth all his enmity against God, and fill him with wrath. Nothing, in short, will make him submit to them but the humbling teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Let us settle it in our minds that, whether we like it or not, the sovereignty of God is a doctrine clearly revealed in the Bible, and a fact clearly to be seen in the world. Upon no other principle can we ever explain why some members of a family are converted, and others live and die in sin--why some quarters of the earth are enlightened by Christianity, and others remain buried in heathenism. One account only can be given of all this. All is ordered by the sovereign hand of God. Let us pray for humility in respect of this deep teaching. Let us remember that our life is but a vapour, and that our best knowledge compared to that of God is unmixed folly. Let us be thankful for such light as we enjoy ourselves, and use it diligently while we have it. And let us not doubt that at the last day the whole world shall be convinced, that He who now "gives no account of His matters" has done all things well.
Of all the doctrines of the Bible none is so offensive to human nature as the doctrine of God's sovereignty. To be told that God is great, and just, and holy, and pure, man can bear. But to be told that "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy"--that He "gives no account of His matters," that it is "not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy"--these are truths that natural man cannot stand. They often call forth all his enmity against God, and fill him with wrath. Nothing, in short, will make him submit to them but the humbling teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Let us settle it in our minds that, whether we like it or not, the sovereignty of God is a doctrine clearly revealed in the Bible, and a fact clearly to be seen in the world. Upon no other principle can we ever explain why some members of a family are converted, and others live and die in sin--why some quarters of the earth are enlightened by Christianity, and others remain buried in heathenism. One account only can be given of all this. All is ordered by the sovereign hand of God. Let us pray for humility in respect of this deep teaching. Let us remember that our life is but a vapour, and that our best knowledge compared to that of God is unmixed folly. Let us be thankful for such light as we enjoy ourselves, and use it diligently while we have it. And let us not doubt that at the last day the whole world shall be convinced, that He who now "gives no account of His matters" has done all things well.
"He has mercy on whom He will have mercy"
Presumption here is he has mercy on some and not on others.
Because this statement can also equate mercy to all even none to all.
GOD can steal from whom he wills to steal too.
Murder whom he wills to murder.
God lies to whom he wills to lie.
Does that mean he is a thief, murderer and Liar? If he lies to N
NE he has lied to whom he wills to lie. If he shows mercy to everyone he can still have shown mercy to whom he wills.Hey he is a thief in the night, right?
So if he decides a "Save All". Its his prerogative. I would say its overstepping your boundaries to dictate on to God in absolutes on his judgment. Universal salvation and Universal doom.
There's tiny knick knacks people say that the appearance of HUMILITY but its just false humility. Actual humility can be humiliating.
Like saying well we don't know anything.
15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Everything Jesus learned from God he let them know. Its the issue of saying well I'm better at being a dumb student then you GOD are at being a great teacher.
The best teacher will straighten you out believe me God is good at what he does. You can hand him the very worst sinner around among all of us and in 5 mins, he can straighten him out.
People take the judgment seat themselves and start stating absolutes, Saying stuff like Everyone deserves to go to hell. And here is the great miracle and mercy that God decided to save some.
That its a miracle that God would even save a portion at all.
The subtle insult being oh God its a shock and surprise that you are only halfways a jerk rather then a complete one.
You guys way braver then me in this regard.
I know GOD is GOOD so I I'm the exact opposite, it would be no surprise to me if God saved everyone. Perfect Hero.
I'd love to see the look n your face when I'm in the hot seat and you have to explain to God..........funny thing.....this guy thought you were perfect and he didn't doubt for a second you would fix everything.
John 6:64-65 is proof that he does not draw all. The problem stated in verse 64 is unbelief. The reason stated in verse 65 for that problem of unbelief among some of his disciples is that the ability to believe was never "given to him." Jesus is referring back to what he had said in verse 44 but note that he substituted "except it were given to him" in the place of "except the Father draw him." What was not given to him was the ability to believe.
Second, Jesus defines who are the "all" that shall be drawn in verse 45 by quoting the prophets who are in context speaking about "all" that the NEW COVENANT is applied to (Isa. 54:13; Jere. 31:31-34).
Third, the Greek term "draw", if we exclude both John 6:44 and John 12:32 as debatable texts, is used every single time where coming is simeltaneous with being drawn and is always effectual, unless the one doing the drawing is without sufficient strength. However, that is not true of God.
Fourth, the act of giving by the Father in John 6:38-39 precedes the incarnation as Christ says that he came from heaven as a consequence of that act of giving by the Father. Therefore, the act of giving preceded both the incarnation and the actual coming of those given both in time and space. Furthermore, since the Father did not give "all" mankind without exception, such giving prior to the incarnation had to be chosen first out of all mankind as designated for the son - thus these are the elect of God chosen and given "in him" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
Fifth, John 12:32 in context is part of the response of Christ to the question about GENTILES wanting to see him and the words "all men" is found in the anarthous construct and can be legitimately translated "all kinds" or "all classes" of men. Moreover, it is improper exegesis to take a singular text and reinterpret it to mean opposite of what it has previously been defined in a larger previous context.
"He has mercy on whom He will have mercy"
Presumption here is he has mercy on some and not on others.
Because this statement can also equate mercy to all even none to all.
GOD can steal from whom he wills to steal too.
Murder whom he wills to murder.
God lies to whom he wills to lie.
Does that mean he is a thief, murderer and Liar? If he lies to N
Hey he is a thief in the night, right?
So if he decides a "Save All". Its his prerogative. I would say its overstepping your boundaries to dictate on to God in absolutes on his judgment. Universal salvation and Universal doom.
There's tiny knick knacks people say that the appearance of HUMILITY but its just false humility. Actual humility can be humiliating.
Like saying well we don't know anything.
15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Everything Jesus learned from God he let them know. Its the issue of saying well I'm better at being a dumb student then you GOD are at being a great teacher.
The best teacher will straighten you out believe me God is good at what he does. You can hand him the very worst sinner around among all of us and in 5 mins, he can straighten him out.
People take the judgment seat themselves and start stating absolutes, Saying stuff like Everyone deserves to go to hell. And here is the great miracle and mercy that God decided to save some.
That its a miracle that God would even save a portion at all.
The subtle insult being oh God its a shock and surprise that you are only halfways a jerk rather then a complete one.
You guys way braver then me in this regard.
I know GOD is GOOD so I I'm the exact opposite, it would be no surprise to me if God saved everyone. Perfect Hero.
I'd love to see the look n your face when I'm in the hot seat and you have to explain to God..........funny thing.....this guy thought you were perfect and he didn't doubt for a second you would fix everything.
This view is inconsistent. Even now if you were to sin its because the father did not draw you. That is you are not drawn to God. You are drawn by the devil. That doesn't mean the devil pulled a string.
Look at those who refuse Jesus in the same moment, in the verses conveniently omitted.
John 6
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
Jesus is offering a prophecy for proof to appeal to their reason. POINTLESS if you think by draw to God means that God has to flick a switch for you to be drawn to him.
Good people are drawn to God, Bad folks are repelled by him.
John 3
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
It has nothing to do with God denying anyone light, It is that THEY DENY the light.
When I sin it is totally my fault. It is not because God didn't provide.
Saying its God's fault is not repentance.
When I sin I have not been drawn by what is Good but by what is Evil.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
This issue has been around since GENESIS.
Genesis 3
12The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”
That's the excuse. Can you see the blame to GOD? That thing you gave me, or that thing you didn't give me........that's why I sinned.
No folks. YOU sin because its YOUR FAULT. God doesn't need to repent, We have to repent.
If God says Walk over here and you have no legs, Don't think for a minute, Well the reason I can't walk is I have no legs.
That's an EXCUSE. Believe me it is YOUR FAULT. You are putting your own understanding and your beliefs over God.
Taking this faithless unbelievers reasoning and applying it to theology is a massive mistake.
When its your fault its your fault and totally. Rather then squirm around trying to find spiritual mechanics where you can blame God , You need to take responsibility and repent.
LOL....No kidding
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