Four Unities Prove 1st Century Rapture: Good News for all Christians

[37818]

...that's kinda what I wrote:

"...Probably here, or the 'countdown' started here and culminated with the destruction of the temple et al.:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Mt 27..."

Brings to mind, Daniel 9:26, ". . . Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ."

Now an intrepertation of yet future, ". . . and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." Revelation 14:14-20 ,". . . And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Revelation 19:11-13 , ". . . And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. . . ."

Hebrews 9:28. Titus 2:13.

 

[AustinC]

You apply an "utterly untenable" interpretative grid over the Bible and then fault Preterism for your own weird grid. Both Preterists and futurists recognize that the Bible does have both metaphorical and literal passages. Your comments above make it sound like it is an either-or proposition.

The text will determine if the passage is meant to be interpreted poetically. 2 Peter 3 is not poetic language. The idea that the saints all were raptured in 70CE makes no sense since John wrote his Revelation of Jesus after 70CE.

 

[Dave G]

If the new heaven and earth are not here now, as you are insisting, then we are still in the old heaven and earth.

" And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." ( Revelation 21:1 ).

Is the earth still covered 70% by water?
Then we are still on the old one.

If we're on the new, then the old was burned up and we're in the New Jerusalem right now ( not figuratively, but literally ), where there is nothing on the earth and nothing in it that will offend the Lord ( Revelation 21 ).
But if you want to take everything in Revelation and make it figurative, then that is your right, Tom.

I'll believe in His second coming, His rule at Jerusalem for 1,000 years, and His Judging of the nations at the White Throne after all of it, when He delivers it all up to the Father and believers can finally breathe a sigh of relief that they are no longer surrounded by people who hate the Lord and who hate them.

We will be where Abraham wanted to be...
Who looked for a city and country where there is nothing but righteousness and the Lord dwells among His people ( Hebrews 13:16 )...a city and country created by God, and come down from Heaven to the earth.

And if we are still in the old heaven earth then, according to Matt. 5:18, we are still under the Law.

Where you make that connection I have no idea, as it is covenantal.
God's people are no longer under the Law, but under grace as a way of life.

The Gentiles are also grafted in, physically, as fellow-heirs with those out of Israel who believe on Christ.
The Law was made void when the veil of the temple was rent in two.

 

[Dave G]

I think Aristotle wrote also about unities in his Poetics,

Respectfully, what does Aristotle have to do with God's word?
Man's wisdom and God's do not mix, and never will.

In fact,
the Lord does many things in spite of it, and to prove it's uselessness to Him ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 Corinthians 3:19-20, all of Proverbs including Proverbs 3:5-7, and the entire book of Ecclesiastes as examples ).

 

[Dave G]

@asterisktom :

Answering the title of this thread:

The "rapture" ( catching away ) has already happened?
That would mean that the first resurrection has already happened as well, that the horrible Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and most of Revelation has already taken place, and 2/3 of the world's people have died due to plagues, earthquakes, tremendous heat that stifles, hail stones of great weight, pestilences, and a third of all trees ( as well as all grass has died )...

Other than the plagues of Egypt ( which was localized ), and the flood that killed all life on the earth except for Noah and his family, I know of no reports in any writings anywhere that corroborate this as having happened yet;

I've studied world history since I was in my early teens, I'm at least superficially aware of the details of almost all of the empires of men that have existed since God created the earth, and I know of nothing anywhere ( other than the Sumerian poems of Gilgamesh and a few other reports about the Flood ) that even comes close to what Revelation describes as ever having taken place.

If you know of some, would you please link the sources?

If the Lord has indeed sent His angels forth and taken His elect from every corner of Heaven and from the earth per Matthew 24 and Mark 13, then the rest of the events of those passages will have happened as well;
Because according to the language of those passages, the words,

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-30 ) would have already been fulfilled...

He would have literally come,
and He would be here right now and we would be with Him.

According to the Scriptures, I see that your timing is off, Tom;
Because if the first resurrection, the catching away when the dead in Christ shall rise first ( see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 ), has already taken place, then we as believers in Jesus Christ are in real trouble...
We are instead partakers of the second resurrection, which is unto death.

And we all know that those who are involved in that will be cast into the Lake of Fire per Revelation 20:1-15.

 

[kyredneck]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-30 )...

He would have literally come, and He would be here right now.
According to the Scriptures, I see that your timing is off, Tom;

No, his timing is spot on, just as your cherry picking. Continue on thru v 34 for the timing:

32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

 

[kyredneck]

I'll believe in His second coming, His rule at Jerusalem for 1,000 years,

So you still insist that it's going to be Lo here, He's in Jerusalem! Lo there, He's at Jerusalem! Not. But that's your prerogative.

 

[kyredneck]

" And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." ( Revelation 21:1 ).

FYI, it's symbolism. 'Sea' is often used symbolically of Gentiles in the scriptures. There are no longer any Gentiles or Jews or barbarian or Scythian in the kingdom of God, but Christ is all and in all.

2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12

'No more sea'. No longer Gentiles.

 

[Dave G]

No, his timing is spot on, just as your cherry picking. Continue on thru v 34 for the timing:

32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Exactly as He said...
The generation that is alive when those things actually happen, will not pass away until all of it is accomplished, my friend.

To say it any other way is to say that the first resurrection unto life has already taken place and that the Tribulation has already taken place...
Which gives believers no hope, as they are not going to partake in anything other than the second resurrection unto death after the 1,000 years are finished.

No thanks.
I'll continue to have hope in the resurrection unto life and in His coming again.

So you still insist that it's going to be

Yes, I do,
and it appears that you're going to find out the hard way, which saddens me greatly.

FYI, it's symbolism. 'Sea' is often used symbolically of Gentiles in the scriptures. There are no longer any Gentiles or Jews or barbarian or Scythian in the kingdom of God, but Christ is all and in all.

Where you connect the two, between "sea" in Revelation 21:1 and believers being one in Christ, I have no idea.

Time for me to leave this thread as well I suppose,
as the Scriptures themselves don't appear to be being received...
Especially what's laid out, step by step, in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.


Good afternoon to you.

 

[asterisktom]

The text will determine if the passage is meant to be interpreted poetically. 2 Peter 3 is not poetic language. The idea that the saints all were raptured in 70CE makes no sense since John wrote his Revelation of Jesus after 70CE.

No. John wrote in the 60s. The only reason the later date is heard of is because of the blunder of one ancient writer, a "stupid" mistake according to A. Strong of Concordance fame.

And, no, for you it is the pretext that determines your interpretation.

 

[asterisktom]

@asterisktom :

Answering the title of this thread:

The "rapture" ( catching away ) has already happened?
That would mean that the first resurrection has already happened as well, that the horrible Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and most of Revelation has already taken place, and 2/3 of the world's people have died due to plagues, earthquakes, tremendous heat that stifles, hail stones of great weight, pestilences, and a third of all trees ( as well as all grass has died )...

Other than the plagues of Egypt ( which was localized ), and the flood that killed all life on the earth except for Noah and his family, I know of no reports in any writings anywhere that corroborate this as having happened yet;

I've studied world history since I was in my early teens, I'm at least superficially aware of the details of almost all of the empires of men that have existed since God created the earth, and I know of nothing anywhere ( other than the Sumerian poems of Gilgamesh and a few other reports about the Flood ) that even comes close to what Revelation describes as ever having taken place.

If you know of some, would you please link the sources?

If the Lord has indeed sent His angels forth and taken His elect from every corner of Heaven and from the earth per Matthew 24 and Mark 13, then the rest of the events of those passages will have happened as well;
Because according to the language of those passages, the words,

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-30 ) would have already been fulfilled...

He would have literally come,
and He would be here right now and we would be with Him.

According to the Scriptures, I see that your timing is off, Tom;
Because if the first resurrection, the catching away when the dead in Christ shall rise first ( see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 ), has already taken place, then we as believers in Jesus Christ are in real trouble...
We are instead partakers of the second resurrection, which is unto death.

And we all know that those who are involved in that will be cast into the Lake of Fire per Revelation 20:1-15.

I am on my phone now, Dave, so just one point. The focus here is not the whole world but the land - γη. If you see this point then all other details will make perfect sense.

 

[Dave G]

If you see this point then all other details will make perfect sense.

I don't need to "see the point", Tom.
I see and understand the words on the page and in their respective details.

Parts of Matthew 24, Mark 13, most of Revelation and parts of Daniel have not yet been fulfilled.
When they are, then the catching away happens as He's coming down.

Good afternoon to you as well.

 

[kyredneck]

The generation that is alive when those things actually happen

No, it's the same generation He addressed just minutes earlier, there was no thousands of years leap in His discourse:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

 

[asterisktom]

I don't need to "see the point", Tom.
I see and understand the words on the page and in their respective details.

Parts of Matthew 24, Mark 13, most of Revelation and parts of Daniel have not yet been fulfilled.
When they are, then the catching away happens as He's coming down.

Good afternoon to you as well.

Just so you know, Dave. I was not trying to be rude. Writing on the phone tends to be more curt. We just disagree. Take care.

 

[kyredneck]

which saddens me greatly.

Oh please, spare me the drama.

 

[timtofly]

I guess he is not "willing to accept it".

You accept reincarnation?

 

[timtofly]

...that's kinda what I wrote:

"...Probably here, or the 'countdown' started here and culminated with the destruction of the temple et al.:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Mt 27..."

Jesus said, "It is finished, the countdown begins, it will take God 40 years to wrap it all up"?

 

[timtofly]

No, it's the same generation He addressed just minutes earlier, there was no thousands of years leap in His discourse:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

There is a leap of thousands of years. Jesus goes back to Abel and claims God sent Abel as a prophet, and ye, those like Cain, did to all the prophets as they willed. Jesus claims a future event that started with the second son of Adam, slaughtered on the Alter of God in Paradise, all the way to Zachariah the father of John the Baptist who was doing the duty of a priest on the alter. So that generation killed those sent by God over a 4000 year period. That generation was from Cain to the Cross. The generation that crucified Jesus bore the brunt of the punishment.


This generation who thinks everything happened in the first century will get the brunt of the Second Coming judgment by reliving the past.

 

[AustinC]

No. John wrote in the 60s. The only reason the later date is heard of is because of the blunder of one ancient writer, a "stupid" mistake according to A. Strong of Concordance fame.

And, no, for you it is the pretext that determines your interpretation.

You realize you are now making excuses and coming up with conspiracy theories.

 

[asterisktom]

You realize you are now making excuses and coming up with conspiracy theories.

You realize you are clinging to your Darbyesque fantasies despite overwhelming Biblical proofs to the contrary.