"Free Choice" - MB

[MB]

What are we defining as "free will"? I'm sure Arminians and Calvinists hold different definitions.

To choose between life ever lasting or Death ever lasting.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

Hearing the Word of God does cause men to come to have faith.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, hearing of the word of God.

Didn't you notice that total depravity has not been proven to be true

What I noticed is that you are still running away from my question. 5 times I have asked the same, very simple, question, and still you cannot honestly answer it because you know your answer will prove you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

"So, again, I ask, for the 6th time, what part of man has not been affected by sin and is still perfectly sinless and able to go to heaven on its own merits? The body? The soul? The spirit? Which one has not been affected by the fall and remains in sinless perfection."

 

[TCassidy]

What are we defining as "free will"? I'm sure Arminians and Calvinists hold different definitions.

The bible tells us what bondage of the will means.

Romans 8:2 tells us that "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Prior to salvation the will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

After salvation the will is been set free by the Law of the Spirit of new life in Christ.

John 8:32 "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 A slave doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever.
36 If therefore the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

If we were not in bondage to sin we would not need to be set free.

 

[MB]

Except we are not talking about "free choice" (whatever that is). We are talking about free will, verses the bible doctrine of the bondage of the will.

I have already explained this to you. The RCC, prior to the Reformation, was entirely Pelagian. Salvation was by works. The rosary was called "God's Stairway to Heaven."

Well you should know since it's where what you believe came from. Calvinism like Catholicism came in to being the same way. Invented by men.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

Well you should know since it's where what you believe came from. Calvinism like Catholicism came in to being the same way. Invented by men.
MB

Still waiting for you to stop running away and answer the very simple question.

"So, again, I ask, for the 7th time, what part of man has not been affected by sin and is still perfectly sinless and able to go to heaven on its own merits? The body? The soul? The spirit? Which one has not been affected by the fall and remains in sinless perfection."

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Not exactly.
All must have faith in order to be saved. Hearing the Word of God does cause men to come to have faith. Faith is trusting in Christ.
Not one person in the Bible was ever saved with out faith.
Not one Gentile was ever elected in scripture.
No where in scripture is the atonement ever limited.
No where in scripture is saving Grace from God ever given with out the person having Faith in Christ
No where in scripture does it say that man must persevere.
Calvinist claim scriptural references that when read in the context of scripture does not say what they claim it does.
Some if not all Calvinist try to apply what is written to the Jews, to them selves.
Didn't you notice that total depravity has not been proven to be true
MB

Where does that faith come from?

You just keep repeating yourself. You don't engage in answering questions. You think that a discussion forum is a private monologue for yourself. It's not.

You'll never be able to convince us of anything since you cannot support your beliefs with scripture.

And... just so you know, you aren't showing any of that 'love' you talk about. Nope, just ain't feeling it.

Bottom line, only scripture matters.

 

[thatbrian]

And... just so you know, you aren't showing any of that 'love' you talk about. Nope, just ain't feeling it.

That's the irony, isn't it?

 

[Felipe Rios]

I said:

So, if I understand you correctly, people hear the Word of God, and then they have a "free choice" as to is they wish to be saved or not. Is that correct?

Do you wish to reply, MB?

Yes. But there are a few things we must understand. There are some of these that Calvinists do not agree on:
1. We are dead in our trespasses. Since we are born dead spiritually, we CANNOT turn to God on our own. We cannot hear God, see God or choose God unless God intervenes. (Calvinists AGREE on this statement).
2. God calls ALL men to Himself but FEW are chosen. (The Calvinists AGREES on this statement)
3. Those who are chosen were chosen based on the foreknowledge of God. God chose those who WOULD be willing to receive Him. (Calvinist MAY OR MAY NOT agree on this statement).
4. God will give EVERYONE the ability to believe or not believe. This comes at the point of conviction. The Spirit will draw ALL sinners to himself and gives them the ABILITY to choose Jesus or reject Jesus. (The Calvinist will NOT agree on this statement. They believe God only grants the ability to believe to the chosen ones. Hence the reason why they believe in Irresistible Grace.)
5. The minute that the Spirit convicts an individual, that is when free will comes in. That person has to make the choice to believe or not believe. If they believe, the Spirit will grant them eternal life, if they don't they remain in their sin. (The Calvinist does NOT believe in this statement. They believe you must receive eternal life first before one believes).

 

[TCassidy]

3. Those who are chosen were chosen based on the foreknowledge of God. God chose those who WOULD be willing to receive Him. (Calvinist MAY OR MAY NOT agree on this statement).

This theory denies the Omniscience of God and thus denies His very Deity.

The Spirit will draw ALL sinners to himself and gives them the ABILITY to choose Jesus or reject Jesus.

This theory denies John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus says He will raise up all that God draws. Not just some.

That person has to make the choice to believe or not believe.

And the lost man always chooses wrong. Always.

 

[thatbrian]

Those who are chosen were chosen based on the foreknowledge of God. God chose those who WOULD be willing to receive Him. (Calvinist MAY OR MAY NOT agree on this statement).

The Calvinist position is not at all in agreement with this.

 

[MB]

Where does that faith come from?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You just keep repeating yourself. You don't engage in answering questions. You think that a discussion forum is a private monologue for yourself. It's not.
[/QUOTE]
When I answer you and other Calvinist you all ignore it because you can't see it.

You'll never be able to convince us of anything since you cannot support your beliefs with scripture.

Nothing you have ever placed on the board has convinced me either

And... just so you know, you aren't showing any of that 'love' you talk about. Nope, just ain't feeling it.

Bottom line, only scripture matters.

True and is why Calvinist ignore the truth of scripture in favor of their so called great men of the faith who misled them in the first place.

 

[Van]

I said:
So, if I understand you correctly, people hear the Word of God, and then they have a "free choice" as to is they wish to be saved or not. Is that correct?

Liberals and Calvinists often redefine the meaning of words and phrases, such that the message is changed to one they agree with. For example, if exhaustive foreknowledge precludes everything except the foreknown thought or action, as Calvinism asserts, then we still exercise choice when we pick the only alternative. Thus non-choice is redefined as choice.

However, scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death, two alternate outcomes. Again, Calvinism redefines this to mean God sets before the non-elect the death only alternative, and before the elect, the life only alternative. Thus nullifying scripture to assert their false theology.

Now lets back-up to the word "free" in "free choice." Why not say, provided we are not one of the first soil of Matthew 13, and we behold Christ high and lifted up, we have a choice to go "all in" for Christ or hold back. The rich young ruler wanted eternal life, but was unwilling to part with his worldly treasures. So he held back.

Last point, if, as Calvinism claims, all our choices are non-choices (we can only choose the foreknown outcome, then God is the author of sin. Since our choices to sin were predestined, then God punishes sinners for the sin He caused. Again, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin, but why He is not, given the predestined nature of our choices, is a mystery. Cognitive dissonance anyone.

 

[TCassidy]

Liberals and Calvinists often redefine the meaning of words and phrases,

This is a very pathetic attempt at the logical fallacy of guilt by association. Come on Van, you are smarter than that. (At least you were 35 years ago with we worked together.)

exhaustive foreknowledge precludes everything except the foreknown thought or action, as Calvinism asserts,

Except Calvinists don't assert that.

Calvinism redefines this to mean God sets before the non-elect the death only alternative, and before the elect, the life only alternative.

Wrong again. The Gospel call is universal and legitimate.

Thus nullifying scripture to assert their false theology.

Van, the only one nullifying scripture is you. You nullify the clear and simple meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

we have a chose to go "all in" for Christ or hold back.

And the lost man always chooses the latter if left to his own devices.

Calvinism claims, all our choices are non-choices

Wrong again. Choices are choices. Just because a person always makes the wrong choice does not mean he didn't have a choice!

Calvinism says God is not the author of sin, but why He is not, given the predestined nature of our choices, is a mystery.

Not a mystery at all. God is Holy. God decrees (first cause) some things and allows (not first cause) others. That is not all that hard to understand, unless you have an agenda that forbids you to consider the truth.

Cognitive dissonance anyone.

Yes, Van. You seem to be suffering from it!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Scripture please. I've read my bible cover to cover many times. I have never found any scripture that says men have free will unto salvation..............
.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

In salvation, If your heart says "yes" to Jesus, through the conviction of the Holy Ghost, then God directs you ultimately to Heaven. If it says "no", God will put you in the other place. God gives us the choice to "choose life" or suffer the alternative because He alone controls the consequences of all of our choices. It may not be worded exactly as you wish, but the Bible teaches that we have "free will'' in everything we decide. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

True and is why Calvinist ignore the truth of scripture in favor of their so called great men of the faith who misled them in the first place.

Two problems. There are people who have never heard the word of the Lord. There are people who have heard the word and REJECT it. Seems like John 6 is something you should read. It's just as I have said. From the words of the Savior, "My sheep HEAR my voice.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

In salvation, If your heart says "yes" to Jesus, through the conviction of the Holy Ghost, then God directs you ultimately to Heaven. If it says "no", God will put you in the other place. God gives us the choice to "choose life" or suffer the alternative because He alone controls the consequences of all of our choices. It may not be worded exactly as you wish, but the Bible teaches that we have "free will'' in everything we decide. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

I'm still waiting on this scripture you claim to have.

 

[Van]

Except Calvinists don't assert that.

Yet another denial of the obvious, Even in this thread, Katarina provided a quote making that Calvinist assertion.

Wrong again. The Gospel call is universal and legitimate.

The issue is not the call but the non-choice, so yet another deflection to hide false theology.

Van, the only one nullifying scripture is you. You nullify the clear and simple meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Yet another false charge, 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say natural people cannot understand all the things of the Spirit, that is your rewrite.

And the lost man always chooses the latter if left to his own devices

False assertion once more. See Matthew 23:13 where lost men were entering the kingdom of heaven.

Wrong again. Choices are choices. Just because a person always makes the wrong choice does not mean he didn't have a choice!

If a person can only choose one alternative, that is not a choice. Again a denial of the obvious.

Not a mystery at all. God is Holy. God decrees (first cause) some things and allows (not first cause) others. That is not all that hard to understand, unless you have an agenda that forbids you to consider the truth.

Yet another denial of Calvinistg doctrine. God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of sin. Pure nonsense wrapped in an enigma. Cognitive dissonance on display.

 

[Van]

Here is the non sliced and diced presentation of truth. Enjoy
Liberals and Calvinists often redefine the meaning of words and phrases, such that the message is changed to one they agree with. For example, if exhaustive foreknowledge precludes everything except the foreknown thought or action, as Calvinism asserts, then we still exercise choice when we pick the only alternative. Thus non-choice is redefined as choice. See post #14 for a typical assertion.

However, scripture says God sets before us the choice of life or death, two alternate outcomes. Again, Calvinism redefines this to mean God sets before the non-elect the death only alternative, and before the elect, the life only alternative. Thus nullifying scripture to assert their false theology.

Now lets back-up to the word "free" in "free choice." Why not say, provided we are not one of the first soil of Matthew 13, and we behold Christ high and lifted up, we have a choice to go "all in" for Christ or hold back. The rich young ruler wanted eternal life, but was unwilling to part with his worldly treasures. So he held back.

Last point, if, as Calvinism claims, all our choices are non-choices (we can only choose the foreknown outcome) then God is the author of sin. Since our choices to sin were predestined, then God punishes sinners for the sin He caused. Again, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin, but why He is not, given the predestined nature of our choices, is a mystery. Cognitive dissonance anyone.

 

[TCassidy]

Yet another denial of the obvious, Even in this thread, Katarina provided a quote making that Calvinist assertion.

One assertion does not a universal doctrine make.

The issue is not the call but the non-choice, so yet another deflection to hide false theology.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time understanding rather simple issues. Everybody has a choice. The lost man will always make the wrong choice.

Yet another false charge,

Only in your limited mind that can't seem to understand fairly simple concepts.

1 Cor. 2:14 does not say natural people cannot understand all the things of the Spirit, that is your rewrite.

No, Van. That is what it says. 1 Corinthians 2:14 "The natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

False assertion once more. See Matthew 23:13 where lost men were entering the kingdom of heaven.

No, Van. Just another scripture you don't seem to understand.

If a person can only choose one alternative, that is not a choice. Again a denial of the obvious.

No, Van, it is you who is denying the obvious. Everybody has a choice. To say "Yes" or "No" to the universal call of the Gospel. But 1 Cor 2:14 tells us the unsaved man will always, of his own free moral agency, make his choice a resounding "NO!:

Yet another denial of Calvinistg doctrine.

Wrong again.

God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of sin.

Once again you display a troubling inability to understand the bible. All things that come to pass are NOT part of God's decretal will. Many of them are part of God's permissive will.

Pure nonsense wrapped in an enigma. Cognitive dissonance on display.

Yes, Van, your posts are becoming more and more theologically incoherent.

 

[Van]

Folks, as demonstrated above, all they have is denial, deflection and defeat.
No matter how often the absurdity is repeated, non-choice is not choice.
1 Cor. 2:14 does not say natural people cannot understand all the things of the Spirit,
Matthew 23:13 teaches the fallen have some spiritual ability, they were entering the kingdom.
Calvinism asserts God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, yet God is not the author of sin. Pure nonsense wrapped in an enigma. Cognitive dissonance on display.