Free choice to choose...

[saturneptune]

If God had not chosen each of us, we would not know Jesus, or possess salvation. Also, I agree with Pastor Larry. We are called upon to tell the good news of the Gospel. The result of that is up to God in His purposes, and not our worry.

 

[tinytim]

I'm ugly, too.

The real question is, "Do you have a choice?"
:laugh:

Did I just hijack my own thread... :tonofbricks:

Carry on gang.. I am enjoying this...

 

[convicted1]

RE: Free to choose?

Thats a fact, I hear your face could back a buzzard out of a maggot wagon :laugh:

EW!! That's graphic....plus pretty ugly!! J/K!!

 

[skypair]

Nobody "believes in election" for their salvation.

Excuse me -- that should have been "trusts in."

Quite the contrary, anyone who believes God wants to save everyone but fails has a serious problem. That's an incompetent "god".

Well, then that's YOU. Cause you believe the Bible -- God is omnipotent and says "He is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance" AND God gives salvation to whomsoever He pleases, right? Then what? Is your "god" too weak to give salvation to all??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Nobody "believes in election" for their salvation.

Excuse me -- that should have been "trusts in."

Quite the contrary, anyone who believes God wants to save everyone but fails has a serious problem. That's an incompetent "god".

Well, then that's YOU. Cause you believe the Bible -- God is omnipotent and says "He is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance" AND God gives salvation to whomsoever He pleases, right? Then what? Is your "god" too weak to give salvation to all??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Where was this said? I think most agree that he does call the elect by preaching.

What does He call them to, PL?? Cause they are already "born again"/regenerated/saved even before the "call." How can there be any point in time when they are not "elect?"

You got called to the ministry. Is that what you are talking about?

skypair

 

[jonnycool]

Bob.

I don't believe Esau was saved.

Why, was it because he sold his birth right or not Bob?

We certainly have the right to believe or not.

We have a duty not a right. I don't see God saying we can choose anything but, love the Lord your God is a command not a request. The command in no ways implies ability only responsibility. In fact ability is a thing God tells us is in His Hands not ours, Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Why did He not give them what they needed, softening rather than hardening the sinner? Because He was determined to see the Exiles in Hell.

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

2. If God sends people to Hell why does this not break the scripture, 1CO 13:8 Love never fails...?

3. On what basis does one end up in Hell, for unbelief? If it is for anything then scripture is broken again, 1CO 13:5 Love keeps no record of wrongs.

4. Why did Jesus die for those God knew would not accept?
Do you believe He died for your sins or just sins in general?

5. If God is not willing for any to perish why does He create those who He knows are Hell-bound?

6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?

7. If God isn't willing for any to perish why does He harden people? Because they sin grossly? All the more reason to soften them then isn't it? Hardening is hardly consistant with not willing for any to perish is it? It is in fact counter to not willing, more like very willing and to a greater punishment. Your assertion is useless. ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

More of God's inconsistancy?

Could you address these points Bob


Believe and trust have the same meaning in salvation skypair.

john.

 

[jonnycool]

He calls us to a knowledge of our salvation skypair.
Along with many things.

LK 1:76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,

LK 1:77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,

LK 1:78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven

LK 1:79 to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace."

john. ​

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob.



Quote:
I don't believe Esau was saved.

Why, was it because he sold his birth right or not Bob?

Oba 1:10¶For [thy] violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

Are you not reading my responses?

We have a duty not a right. I don't see God saying we can choose anything but, love the Lord your God is a command not a request. The command in no ways implies ability only responsibility. In fact ability is a thing God tells us is in His Hands not ours, Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Why did He not give them what they needed, softening rather than hardening the sinner? Because He was determined to see the Exiles in Hell

Call it what you want, I think I will stick with all men have the right.
Instead of asking me why did He not save them all, ask yourself why He did not chose them all.

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

You tell me, you are the one who believes He only picked out some and let the rest go to Hell?

2. If God sends people to Hell why does this not break the scripture, 1CO 13:8 Love never fails...?

Again, Mr. Cal, you tell me?

3. On what basis does one end up in Hell, for unbelief? If it is for anything then scripture is broken again, 1CO 13:5 Love keeps no record of wrongs.

False, God is love and believe me He has the record of the works of all men. If you don't know that, you need to study some more.

4. Why did Jesus die for those God knew would not accept?
Do you believe He died for your sins or just sins in general?

1Jo 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Do you not accept scripture johnny?


5. If God is not willing for any to perish why does He create those who He knows are Hell-bound?

Cals teach that the road to hell is paved with the bones of babies, you are in a better position to answer that than me.


6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?

He is an "all knowing God", why do you think that Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world?

7. If God isn't willing for any to perish why does He harden people? Because they sin grossly? All the more reason to soften them then isn't it? Hardening is hardly consistant with not willing for any to perish is it? It is in fact counter to not willing, more like very willing and to a greater punishment. Your assertion is useless. ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

He is God and for some reason decided to make the world and man subject to vanity, I think it was to get Glory and Honor from them.

More of God's inconsistancy?

Be careful of how you speak of God, I told you He keeps a record.

Could you address these points Bob

From the addressee to the adressor

Have a nice day, I am on my way out the door to preach a sermon to the people.

 

[jonnycool]

Bob.

Why, was it because he sold his birth right or not Bob?

Are you not reading my responses?

I thought you were joking.

I asked you why Esau wasn't saved, I thought you were saying something about his birth right being sold, I never dreamed of looking for the answer in Obadiah.

I still think you are kidding me. What's to do with the birth right thing then? What violence did Esau do Jacob, I thought he behaved like a gent to the deciever. But then in this verse God is talking directly to Esau and explaining to him his sin, I didn't know Esau lived that long? One's always learning something.

Call it what you want, I think I will stick with all men have the right.

Don't worry, I'll go along with you, they have the right but no ability otherwise the seed grew in your good heart before regeneration. Where did the good soil come from man? I'd like to point people in the right direction, how did you manage a clean thing when scripture says no clean things 'r' us?

Instead of asking me why did He not save them all, ask yourself why He did not chose them all.

Have you not heard? His purpose in election stands, He has chosen all men, one lot He sends to Hell and the other lot He brings to Himself and that before they were born or had done anything right or wrong, in their innocence one might say. You will find the scripture at Rom 9:11 on.

Your answer for 1. is no answer at all.
Your answer for 2. is no answer at all.

Answer three is interesting. God says that love keeps no record of wrongs and you say He does and if I don't believe you I need to study more? It would have been better studying less then I might make more of your answers that are not.

God is love, love keeps no record of wrongs, God keeps a record of wrongs therefore God is not love. That is the logical conclusion I reach?

What wrong can He hold against me? The Patsy took the fall for me but you don't believe He took it for you, you think God has a record on you after Jesus said He took it away.

JER 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Do you not accept scripture johnny?

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." My salvation is written in Christ's Blood, and my name is engraved on His Palm and my sins are forgotten.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails...

Is it kind to create men for Hell? Where is love in Hell?

Cals teach that the road to hell is paved with the bones of babies...

Misleading is a sin openly practiced yet you mocked and scoffed at those who believe God can communicate His will to babies, PS 22:9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.

Declaring that the babies of reprobates go to heaven is adding to scripture and a sin openly practiced. The bible is silent on the matter and well you should know.

...you are in a better position to answer that than me.

What's it got to do with you if He does damn babies, what will you do about it? Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

JOB 9:23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.

What are you going to do about it if He does damn babies Bob? But you are sure to swing support to your unscriptural view. Sweet Jesus meek and mild is the in thing these days, same as it ever was.

6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?

He is an "all knowing God", why do you think that Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world?

Yes but why did He create Hell if He wasn't willing that anyone went there? He is all knowing, He knows that His 'not willing' will be of no use against those willing what He wills not so why will and fail? A jest? The jumped up slaves are still revolting. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Do you not accept scripture Bob?

"Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Amen Bob?​

He is God and for some reason decided to make the world and man subject to vanity, I think it was to get Glory and Honor from them.

Even though He was not willing that any perish? Explain this more please.

Be careful of how you speak of God, I told you He keeps a record.

I will speak to and about Him as I please and I have told you He keeps forgetting what I've said and done, He's getting on a bit now. If my Father wants to correct me His will will be done. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'

Have a nice day, I am on my way out the door to preach a sermon to the people.

I have prayed for them.

john.

 

[npetreley]

Excuse me -- that should have been "trusts in."

Bzzzt. Try again. Nobody trusts in election for salvation. Election is simply why they trust in Jesus.

But don't let me stop you. Keep making up "facts" to counter your opposition. Odds are sooner or later you might actually hit on something that's true.

 

[Brother Bob]

I still think you are kidding me. What's to do with the birth right thing then? What violence did Esau do Jacob, I thought he behaved like a gent to the deciever. But then in this verse God is talking directly to Esau and explaining to him his sin, I didn't know Esau lived that long? One's always learning something.

You wouldn't question God's word, would you?

I asked you why Esau wasn't saved,

no you didn't either.

johnnycool

Esau is saved?

This is what you ask me and I answered you. You don't want an answer.

The Patsy took the fall for me

What kind of Christian is that to call the Lord a "Patsy".

johnnycool;
Have you not heard? His purpose in election stands, He has chosen all men, one lot He sends to Hell and the other lot He brings to Himself and that before they were born or had done anything right or wrong, in their innocence one might say. You will find the scripture at Rom 9:11 on.

Your answer for 1. is no answer at all.
Your answer for 2. is no answer at all.

Answer three is interesting. God says that love keeps no record of wrongs and you say He does and if I don't believe you I need to study more? It would have been better studying less then I might make more of your answers that are not.

God is love, love keeps no record of wrongs, God keeps a record of wrongs therefore God is not love. That is the logical conclusion I reach?

What wrong can He hold against me? The Patsy took the fall for me (post #130) but you don't believe He took it for you, you think God has a record on you after Jesus said He took it away.

JER 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."


Quote:
Do you not accept scripture johnny?

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." My salvation is written in Christ's Blood, and my name is engraved on His Palm and my sins are forgotten.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails...

Is it kind to create men for Hell? Where is love in Hell?


Quote:
Cals teach that the road to hell is paved with the bones of babies...

Misleading is a sin openly practiced yet you mocked and scoffed at those who believe God can communicate His will to babies, PS 22:9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.

Declaring that the babies of reprobates go to heaven is adding to scripture and a sin openly practiced. The bible is silent on the matter and well you should know.


Quote:
...you are in a better position to answer that than me.

What's it got to do with you if He does damn babies, what will you do about it? Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

JOB 9:23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.

What are you going to do about it if He does damn babies Bob? But you are sure to swing support to your unscriptural view. Sweet Jesus meek and mild is the in thing these days, same as it ever was.

6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?


Quote:
He is an "all knowing God", why do you think that Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world?

Yes but why did He create Hell if He wasn't willing that anyone went there? He is all knowing, He knows that His 'not willing' will be of no use against those willing what He wills not so why will and fail? A jest? The jumped up slaves are still revolting. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Do you not accept scripture Bob?

"Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Amen Bob?​

Quote:
He is God and for some reason decided to make the world and man subject to vanity, I think it was to get Glory and Honor from them.

Even though He was not willing that any perish? Explain this more please.


Quote:
Be careful of how you speak of God, I told you He keeps a record.

I will speak to and about Him as I please and I have told you He keeps forgetting what I've said and done, He's getting on a bit now. If my Father wants to correct me His will will be done. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'


Quote:
Have a nice day, I am on my way out the door to preach a sermon to the people.

I have prayed for them. probably need to pray for yourself more!! If you call the Lord names like being a "patsy".

john.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So you don't even believe the words of Jesus.

2Th 2:11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I never knew a Christian to call the Lord a "Patsy". We do learn everyday, or at least some do.

JOB 9:23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.

Are you calling the Lord a scourge here also?

 

[Brother Bob]

Main Entry: pat·sy
Pronunciation: 'pat-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural pat·sies
Etymology: perhaps from Italian pazzo fool
: a person who is easily manipulated or victimized : [SIZE=-1]PUSHOVER[/SIZE]

johnnycool; post #130 What wrong can He hold against me? The Patsy took the fall for me

Why would you call Jesus a patsy, fool, pushover?

I doubt very seriously if another person on Baptist Board would call Jesus a "patsy".

 

[psalms109:31]

Esua and Jacob

What we learn from the passage is that our birth doesn't matter.

Both children was twins, Israel.

God hated one and loved another.

The main emphasis is that being a seed of Abraham from birth doesn't mean God can't hate one and love another. You can't depend on your birth but your hope in Jesus(faith).

The door for the world was not opened until Jesus was raised from the dead and sat on the right hand of God and the day penticost when God poured the Holy Spirit on the earth.

Now we have a hope for the whole world and we are the messengers of it..

Without the Holy Spirit that we have become the temple of, we couldn't reach no one for Christ

It is Jesus words that are Spirit and Life without them we have no hope of reaching a dieing world either.

What we have to reach a dieing world came from God

Our message is for the world about God's love for them and what God has done for them through Jesus Christ.

God will cast those out who do not dress for the occasion.

God cleans His church the bride by the washing with water through the word, not the words of men.

It is the bride that God has chosen before the foundation of the world.

It doesn't matter about your natural birth, you choosen God, or work, but by faith in the word that is washing you and making you clean for the wedding

 

[jonnycool]

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Patsy was the wrong word to use, I did not realise it was racist, I thought it was just one that took the fall.
Self-righteousness is it not? The man that thinks he makes it on his record. Love keeps no record of wrongs.

You wouldn't question God's word, would you?

Why not?

I asked you why Esau wasn't saved,

no you didn't either.

You said: I don't believe Esau was saved.
I asked: Why, was it because he sold his birth right or not Bob? (post #127.)

You still haven't told me, why do you refuse to answer me? What's to do with the birth right thing?

You have quoted me after changing what I wrote, why?

So you don't even believe the words of Jesus.

You speak to cover your lack of answers.

Any other free willer willing to play straight?

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

2. If God sends people to Hell why does this not break the scripture, 1CO 13:8 Love never fails...?

3. On what basis does one end up in Hell, for unbelief? If it is for anything then scripture is broken again, 1CO 13:5 Love keeps no record of wrongs.

4. Why did Jesus die for those God knew would not accept?
Do you believe He died for your sins or just sins in general?

5. If God is not willing for any to perish why does He create those who He knows are Hell-bound?

6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?

7. If God isn't willing for any to perish why does He harden people? Because they sin grossly? All the more reason to soften them then isn't it? Hardening is hardly consistant with not willing for any to perish is it? It is in fact counter to not willing, more like very willing and to a greater punishment. Your assertion is useless. ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


john.

 

[skypair]

jonny

Esau did not lose his "salvation." In the "ensample" of the story (IAW 1Cor 10:6), he lost his temporal or secular blessings. That is the story behind Esau. He was still his father's son (as we who are saved are) but he lost his father's earthly reward -- much like the first generation who escaped Egypt were saved but missed God's "rest" in Canaan, the land that was promised them.

So -- God did not hate Esau. He hated Esau's ancestors.

But as to "playing straight," we've played that game before. It's about free will and unbelief, jonny. You attribute many things to God the responsibility for which belongs to fallen man.

Now if you grasp hold of these concepts, you will have "SOMETHING in your hands" to bring to the Bema of Christ when the time comes. :laugh:

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

Why

Why does God let an unbeliever exist that is never going to accept Jesus and end up in hell be born.

So that a child that is going to be born through the seed of that man that will believe and be saved will be born.

People only want to see a little picture so they can't see the whole truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

blind man

John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

 

[Pastor Larry]

What does He call them to, PL??

He calls them to salvation.

Cause they are already "born again"/regenerated/saved even before the "call."

No, they are not. They are elect before the call. They are not born again. Some believe that the call is virtually synonymous with regeneration.

I have to wonder why you have not yet read John Murray's Redemption: Accomplished and Applied yet. You would not agree with it (though it may convinced you), but you would at least understand the terms. You keep confusing them.

How can there be any point in time when they are not "elect?"

There's not.

You got called to the ministry. Is that what you are talking about?

Nope.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

That is a question for the Calvinist, not the free will. The Calvinist are the ones who say God created the majority and would not regenerate them, but would let them go to hell, while regenerated a precious few.

Question johnnycool;

1. If God chose to regenerate you, could you tell me why you, above others? What makes you so special that God chose you? Especially when you call the Saviour of mankind a "patsy". I guess you realized you made a mistake, I hope you asked God to forgive you.

2. Why did God create the others and not choose them, but rather let them go to hell without a chance to escape? If you can answer this then you wouldn't have to ask the free willer anything about hell.

2. I always wonder how do you know, you are one of the regenrated ones, I mean according to scripture God sends strong delusions to some to believe a lie. What makes you so sure about yourself.

I mean:

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They must of considered themselves to be the "elect", don't you think?

waiting your response!

By the Grace of God, I am what I am.