Free choice to choose...

[npetreley]

Because he said he didn't. He said, "If I had done this there, they would have believed." He did it elsewhere so we know that che could have done it; but he chose not to.

How do you reconcile that with God not being willing that any perish, but wants everyone to be saved? If, as you say, He said He could have saved them but chose not to?

 

[Brother Bob]

npet;
Not my words, they are Pastor Larry's. You will have to ask him.

 

[skypair]

Look at it this way: Assuming you are not an open theist, you believe that God brings "Joe" into this world, knowing that Joe will not believe and will die in his sins and will spend eternity in hell. Yet God doesn't stop it. How is that loving?

Define "open theist." Cause watch ---

In fact, since God knew in eternity past that Joe would not accept, Joe really has no chance to get saved.

KNEW. That's right. Didn't choose Joe to reprobation but FOREKNEW. Is that "open theism?"

(I have just laid out for you one reason, among others, that people become open theists. They recognize the fallacy of the argument you made, and rather than change their beliefs about God's sovereignty, they change their beliefs about God's knowledge.

Not me. I ALWAYS believed in God's sovereignty AND foreknowledge. These are NOT mutually exclusive as you make them out to be.

The Calvinist faces the same scenario but rests in the providence and sovereignty of a loving and gracious God who does all things right.

Or as most people would say, "What you don't know can't hurt you."

For the Calvinist, Joe doesn't go to hell because God sat idly by able to change it but unwilling. Joe goes to hell becuase Joe is a rebellious sinner against God. He did not want to be saved.[/quote] PRECISELY!! And God wouldn't overpower Joe's personal sovereignty even though He could!

Let me take a stab at these questions. I konw they were asked to John.

There is nothing special in the elecct that God chose them (cf. 1 Cor 1:26-29). That's exactly the point. If there were something special in man (i.e., foreseen faith; better family; etc), then God would be a respecter of persons.

OR God could just decide He will accept only believers into heaven.

... is that God desired to show his glory against the backdrop of the ugliness of sin. god is not unfair to send sinners to hell. It is what they deserve.

To whom?? Who is it that God has to "prove Himself" to??

skypair

 

[skypair]

No. Heb 4:12 says that. It is a Hebraism about the fact that the word of God penetrates the very core of man's being.

I'm sorry, Larry. I got sarcastic with you without meaning to (of course :smilewinkgrin: )

Hebraism. Hmm. So signifying nothing then? How does one handle an Hebraism?

I don't divide them. It has nothing to do with soteriology. Man is made of a material part and an immaterial part. The word for "soul" or "spirit" is used both for material and immaterial.

Do you not believe that God is going to save us "wholly" -- body, soul, and spirit?? 1Thes 5:23?? Is that another instance of Hebraism.

Uh??? When you do think before the foundation of the world was?

Well, I believe there was a point in time that was "before the foundation of the world" but it WAS a point in time that could be identified had we been there. Else we would be eternal like God, no?

It was in eternity past. To say God elected in eternity past is to say he elected before hte foundation of the world.

Sure, Larry, but not before He foresaw everything at an earlier point in time at which time He had decided to create earth and man.

No. there is not time in eternity past.

If he came by that knowledge in time, then there was a time when he was not omniscient.

Well, this is like your concept of omnipotent, isn't it? God COULD do anything He wanted to but doesn't. So, "there was a time when" God had not decided to even create the earth. IOW, There was nothing to know about man.

Election, as we are discussing it here is about salvation, not ministry.

If you read my Bible, you wouldn't think so. :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Why? Let's put it this way: If God chose someone because they believed, then he would be respecting those who believed in him and disrespecting those who did not. The reason is because God chose to.

EXCELLENT!!! You ARE free will!! You are just "doublecorssing" yourself!!

I do that at the golf course frequently -- try to hit a hook and slice the ball or vice versa. There is something very "UN-5 pointer" about you and it is that you see regeneration AFTER belief. See, that denies Unconditional Election -- it says that salvation is NOT irresistible -- it admits that man is not as "totally depraved" as Calvinism makes him out to be.

I don't think you understand. I don't believe God caused me to choose to sin. I don't really believe he caused me to choose to believe.

YES! So why do you claim to be Calvinist??

I sinned because of my old nature. God gave me a new nature and that new nature chose to believe.

No, that is not what you averred when you agreed that you were an "anomally." And you said you got your "new nature" AFTER you believed. What I think you meant is what I have said all along -- you believed, were regenerated with a new nature, and then received faith. I'll buy that, fellow free willer! :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Interesting example. So let's pursue this: How would I pull his hand away?

I think you would say, "Don't touch that!" Then the child would either obey or get burned. Nice thing about that is he learns how wise you were and listens next time -- hopefully! :laugh: I've found that isn't always the truth. Often, in fact, they don't learn this until they grow up.

But, yes, you would let him hurt himself if he didn't listen, right? At least one lesson is learned.

Would I sit and beg him hoping that he might exercise his free will? Or will I go and physically pull him away? the latter right? And why? Because I love him. I will not let someone I love, over whom I have control, hurt themselves. So plug that scenario into God and his love and tell me what you come up with.

You are correct. And I am so thankful that he did. You would not believe what a difference it has made in my life. It is what sustains me from day to day. I am glad that God used a number of people, circumstances, and his word to change my erroneous theology.

Because he said he didn't. He said, "If I had done this there, they would have believed." He did it elsewhere so we know that che could have done it; but he chose not to.

That was a timing issue, Larry. God did not plan for Christ to come for many years. That's all.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I said God chooses, and we don't know why He chooses one over another. I know I'm elect. But I can't tell you WHY God chose me. I can, however, tell you lots of reasons why I didn't deserve it.

And you KNOW the "hidden counsel of God" on this? How did you come to know it? If you don't know why, what else don't you know about your election?

skypair

 

[jonnycool]

psalms.

All who believe is His children.

I know. I don't know why you are telling me though.

This is what the scripture say why they are hell bound.

If you mean the Children of God they are not.

In the old testiment I agree with calvinist only through Jesus and His world are they given a life enough to choose to believe or not to believe.

You disagree with Calvinism, no one is given life enough to choose but are born again. Being given 'life enough' sums up Arminianism more that Calvinism. We are given life in abundance we do not need to ask for it as we are dead before that.

It is Jesus words that are Spirit and Life and we are the messenger of it.

Only those that know it.

All of us is clay made for destruction and i cannot complain to the potter why He made me this way. Me and you both are in the the same clay made for destruction

Not all the clay was made for destruction just some of it. The rest of us are being transformed into the image of God.

Jesus is the only one who can save us from this dying flesh.

You can still walk away so it is you that saves you by not walking away.

Do not put your hope in yourself thinking you were made for honor, because you and me both were made for destruction.

I put my trust in Christ and know myself to be made for noble purposes. I don't trust me but I do trust the Word of God. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Only Jesus can save us, put your faith in Jesus.

It is I who believes Christ died for my sins but you, you say, God keeps a record of your wrongs but that is not me, not one of my sins past, present or future could ever separate me from love of Christ. That's what faith is, believing Christ paid all my debt, how can you say, "Put your faith in Jesus."? You believe, you put your faith in Christ and believe He died in your place so you could live so live.

Jesus says whosoever believes in me shall be saved, who am i to argue with God. It is God who choose to save them.

But you're not safe are you, you say we can decide to leave it all behind? Whoever believes is surely saved and I believe He died for my sins, what do I lack? Nothing. John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
And everlasting life is everlasting. Whoever believes will live forever, whoever does not will not.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and me and you are messsengers of it.

That is a message from the pit and will not pass my lips. Why does He create men that He knows are Hell bound if He is willing to save all? How can He be willing and not able? Willing things that cannot be? He knew who was saved and who was not before we ever came into being. What message, that God wills for things He knows He cannot have? That God creates Hell wanting no one to go there and knowing they will? Some message. Jesus dying for those He knew would not accept His salvation is not a message it is rubbish. If He died for sins then sins can no longer be deadly can they? If they were deadly then Jesus took that and died in my place. That's faith.

Why does He create men that He knows are Hell bound if He is willing to save all why does God create Hell wanting no one to go there and knowing they will??

john.

 

[skypair]

How do you reconcile that with God not being willing that any perish, but wants everyone to be saved? If, as you say, He said He could have saved them but chose not to?

They make sense when you realize that there is a point at which God WILL abandon people to their own desires. I have seen many parents do the same with their kids. It is called "letting them reach rock bottom." Do you think any in Tyre and Sidon called out to God in their last dispairing moments? I bet, just like teens that grow up, they did.

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

You disagree with Calvinism, no one is given life enough to choose but are born again. Being given 'life enough' sums up Arminianism more that Calvinism. We are given life in abundance we do not need to ask for it as we are dead before that.

I do not disagree with calvinism up to the point of Jesus being preached. It is Jesus words that is Spirit and they are Life, you do not have to be born again to believe or trust in Jesus that is a lie, you have to be born again to see heaven.

There was many who believed before being born again, The scripture says you have to believe to be saved, you have to trust in Jesus only He can make you alive.

Not all the clay was made for destruction just some of it. The rest of us are being transformed into the image of God.

All of us is in the same clay only Jesus can save us from it, you have to trust in Jesus to be saved.

You can still walk away so it is you that saves you by not walking away.

It is the scripture that tell you that not me. If you disown Jesus He will disown you before the His Father in heaven. There is many going to go before the Lord and say I cast out demons in your name and Jesus tells that I never knew you go away you evil doer.

I put my trust in Christ and know myself to be made for noble purposes. I don't trust me but I do trust the Word of God. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We was not made for noble purposes only Jesus is and those who will remain in Him. There is nothing good in all of us even you your only hope is Jesus Only Jesus was created for noble purpose we are in His train

It is I who believes Christ died for my sins but you, you say, God keeps a record of your wrongs but that is not me, not one of my sins past, present or future could ever separate me from love of Christ. That's what faith is, believing Christ paid all my debt, how can you say, "Put your faith in Jesus."? You believe, you put your faith in Christ and believe He died in your place so you could live so live.

He does not keep any records of wrongs, God only saves those who remainm in Jesus His church, your not depending on yourself but God through Jesus Christ. Faith is to believe in God and His word. If you do not remain in Jesus you nothing good but for the fire.

But you're not safe are you, you say we can decide to leave it all behind? Whoever believes is surely saved and I believe He died for my sins, what do I lack? Nothing. John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
And everlasting life is everlasting. Whoever believes will live forever, whoever does not will not.

Just believe the word of God who tells us, You want to believe one scripture and not another scripture Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

That is a message from the pit and will not pass my lips. Why does He create men that He knows are Hell bound if He is willing to save all? How can He be willing and not able? Willing things that cannot be? He knew who was saved and who was not before we ever came into being. What message, that God wills for things He knows He cannot have? That God creates Hell wanting no one to go there and knowing they will? Some message. Jesus dying for those He knew would not accept His salvation is not a message it is rubbish. If He died for sins then sins can no longer be deadly can they? If they were deadly then Jesus took that and died in my place. That's faith.



Why does He create men that He knows are Hell bound if He is willing to save all why does God create Hell wanting no one to go there and knowing they will??

His desire is that all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, those who are condemned are condemned because they have not believe. God is the creator He creats. One who creats, creats knowing the outcome. He has given us a way out His name is Jesus. Don't walk away like the young rich ruler. Who was drawn to Jesus chosen, but walked away.

Jude 1:5
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord [ Some early manuscripts Jesus]
delivered his people out of Egypt,but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Define "open theist."

Open theism believes that God only knows that which is knowable; he does not know future free choices because since they have not yet been made they cannot be known.

KNEW. That's right. Didn't choose Joe to reprobation but FOREKNEW. Is that "open theism?"

I assume you are missing a word (God choose)? Other than that, the question is obtuse.

Not me. I ALWAYS believed in God's sovereignty AND foreknowledge. These are NOT mutually exclusive as you make them out to be.

I don’t think they are mutually exclusive at all. I believe in both, as I have said. My point to you is that God’s foreknowledge as you define it is incompatibl with free will. Once God knows in eternity past what Joe will do, Joe can’t change his mind. He has no free will to do such (by your definition.)

And God wouldn't overpower Joe's personal sovereignty even though He could!

What “personal sovereignty” does Joe have? And why wouldn’t God overrule it like he has with others?

OR God could just decide He will accept only believers into heaven.

He did. But that’s not the point. Don’t get distracted by bringing up irrelevant points.

To whom??

To man.

Who is it that God has to "prove Himself" to??

No one. Where did this come from? Was someone talking about this?

I'm sorry, Larry. I got sarcastic with you without meaning to

Where? I didn’t see any.

Hebraism. Hmm. So signifying nothing then? How does one handle an Hebraism?

A Hebraism is a figure of speech from Hebrew usage. It is similar to saying “raining cats and dogs.”

Do you not believe that God is going to save us "wholly" -- body, soul, and spirit?? 1Thes 5:23?? Is that another instance of Hebraism.

Yes it is another Hebraism that means God will save us completely, not just the immaterial part as some believed.

Well, I believe there was a point in time that was "before the foundation of the world" but it WAS a point in time that could be identified had we been there. Else we would be eternal like God, no?

How can there be a point before time that was in time. Being chosen before the foundation of the world does not mean that we are eternal.

Sure, Larry, but not before He foresaw everything at an earlier point in time at which time He had decided to create earth and man.

No. there is not time in eternity past.

You see, this is totally contradictory. You say there was not time in eternity past but then say he foresaw everything at an earlier point of time (which you said did not exist). Seriously, SP, in your desire and commitment to support the position you have taken, you are saying incoherent things.

Well, this is like your concept of omnipotent, isn't it? God COULD do anything He wanted to but doesn't. So, "there was a time when" God had not decided to even create the earth. IOW, There was nothing to know about man.

No, not similar at all.

If you read my Bible, you wouldn't think so.

Then you need to get a new Bible. Election in Eph 1:4, 2 theess 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Tim 2:10 are all too salvation (as well as other passages).

There is something very "UN-5 pointer" about you and it is that you see regeneration AFTER belief. See, that denies Unconditional Election -- it says that salvation is NOT irresistible -- it admits that man is not as "totally depraved" as Calvinism makes him out to be.

That’s not un five pointer in the least.

YES! So why do you claim to be Calvinist??

Because I am one. I have the advantage over you of actually knowing what Calvinism is.

And you said you got your "new nature" AFTER you believed.

No I didn’t, unless I misspoke, which I doubt. I said God gave me a new nature and then I believed.

I think you would say, "Don't touch that!" Then the child would either obey or get burned.

You are crazy. I would say no when he started crawling toward it or reaching it. But I would physically remove him before he could actually touch it. That’s because I love him.

But, yes, you would let him hurt himself if he didn't listen, right? At least one lesson is learned.

Nope, not at this age and not with a serious injury at any age.

That was a timing issue, Larry. God did not plan for Christ to come for many years. That's all.

Even if it is a timing issue, it destroys your whole position.

In the end, you are continuing to hold an unsupportable position that is clearly refuted from Scripture.

 

[pinoybaptist]

For the Calvinist, Joe doesn't go to hell because God sat idly by able to change it but unwilling.

God sat idly by ? How ungrateful can one be. If God had sat idly by, where do you think you would be, eh, skypair ? Do you think you will be sitting where you're at debating theology and berating a dead man for eloquently explaining what he believes the Bible teaches ?

Do you think you would be preaching God's grace as you see it, or even exclaim that you have a hope in heaven ?

If God sat idly by, where would you be, eh ?

Do you think you would have the liberty to speak of God that way if He had simply sat idly by ?

He had mercy on you but not on Joe, and that's not good enough for you ? You would demand that He should have mercy on everybody and at the same time be just because you think that is the box He should be sitting in ?

God sat idly by. Yeah, right.

 

[skypair]

Open theism believes that God only knows that which is knowable; he does not know future free choices because since they have not yet been made they cannot be known.

Thanks, Larry. I'm not "open theist either then. I believe God Knew before creation what our decisions would be. They were knowable to Him beforehand but at a specific point in time, right?

You try to answer this a little later but here's my view: God is eternal, no beginning or end. So there was a point in time before which God existed but we were not even conceived of yet. Do you believe that? I mean neither we nor time is eternal. Time started sometime. At that point God began by making angels, I believe. Still hadn't thought about making man. Do you agree?

I don’t think they are mutually exclusive at all. I believe in both, as I have said. My point to you is that God’s foreknowledge as you define it is incompatible with free will. Once God knows in eternity past what Joe will do, Joe can’t change his mind. He has no free will to do such (by your definition.)

Ah! I see where you err. God knows in eternity past what Joe will do, right? But Joe did it by making a free will choice in the course of his lifetime.

After God foreknew all, He predestined Joe, wrapped time all up in a "package" that we call "foreordination" or God's "decree" that y'all talk about. That doesn't mean that Joe didn't make the decision freely choosing between life and death -- it means that God anticipated it in His plan. It's not a matter that Joe can't freely choose -- it's that his choice is already anticipated in God's plan.

What “personal sovereignty” does Joe have? And why wouldn’t God overrule it like he has with others?

Therefore, Joe has personal sovereignty over his decision. He made his choice freely (able to choose Christ or reject Him) and what scripture tells us is that God foreknew which Joe would choose.

A Hebraism is a figure of speech from Hebrew usage. It is similar to saying “raining cats and dogs.”

OK, only an "academician" would come up with this so that scripture wouldn't be taken serioiusly so let's try another tact.

Do you believe in justification, sanctification, and glorification?? Do you see that the soul must be justified, the spirit sanctified and the body glorified in order to save man "wholly?" I don't think you do, do you. Well, them's the facts and ya gotta deal with 'em. :laugh: Soul - spirit - body.

How can there be a point before time that was in time.

Does eternity have a beginning? I say no. Does time have a beginning? I say yes. Therefore, there is a point when time began and there had been a whole lot of eternity prior to it.

Then you need to get a new Bible. Election in Eph 1:4, 2 thes 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Tim 2:10 are all too salvation (as well as other passages).

OK, Eph 1:4-5. How do we get "chosen in Christ?" Does God chooses us or do we choose Christ? It's through Christ for sure, right? And it just happens (or does it) that God only picks believers, right? Wouldn't you say that He "chose us in Christ" according to His foreknowledge rather than because He was going to force Himself on random people?

Incidentally, that 1:5 tells us even more. "...predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to His good pleasure." That is, we are predestinated according to His good pleasure, not saved according thereto. Do you see that? This is not talking about "foreknowledge" of salvation but what God does AFTER He "foreknows" in Rom 8:29 which is He "predestines."

2Thes 2:13. We have already discovered that this has a similar formulation, to wit: "...chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:...." He chose you on account of "belief in the truth." Who's belief, Larry?? YOUR belief which He foresaw. If God could make you believe the truth, He should have and could have done that to everyone! Why, if He "so loves the world," would He not?

1Pet 1:2 we also discussed -- "Elect according to foreknowledge..." --foreknowledge that we would believe. You're having trouble in dealing with the words "according to" and "through" aren't you?

2Tim 2:10 we have already seen speaks of Israel, God's OT "elect" whose "brother" Paul was.

No I didn’t, unless I misspoke, which I doubt. I said God gave me a new nature and then I believed.

Then you believe that you were sanctified (see above) before you were justified? How long between?

You are crazy. I would say no when he started crawling toward it or reaching it. But I would physically remove him before he could actually touch it. That’s because I love him.

Not so crazy, Larry. Not if I couldn't "reach" him. Doesn't God have to "speak" to us? That's my point.

In the end, you are continuing to hold an unsupportable position that is clearly refuted from Scripture.

So it is "unsupportable," for instance, that God tried to "gather Israel like a hen" but "they would not?" Your interpretation of Jesus remarks about Tyre and Sidon, while literal, could never have been historically correct, Larry. There was NO WAY God could have sent Christ to Tyre and Sidon any more than He could blown the rapture trump 10 years ago. Christ was merely comparing the people of the 2 ages.

skypair

 

[skypair]

pinoy,

Deny for me the Calvinist belief that God sits passively by allowing those who are "chosen to reprobation" to go straight to hell. He allows them to be born, to rebel all their lives without any chance of repenting (since they can't "hear" God), and then to go where He has chosen them to. I'd call that "sitting idly by" while the lost go to the damnation He chose for them, wouldn't you?

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

Thanks, Larry. I'm not "open theist either then. I believe God Knew before creation what our decisions would be. They were knowable to Him beforehand but at a specific point in time, right?

I knew you weren’t. What I said was that your argument is what leads to open theism. They recognize the problems that your position has and rather than become a Calvinist, they become an open theist.

As for knowable beforehand, it wasn’t a point in time. God’s knowledge is eternal or else you have process theism or open theism (variations of the same idea).

So there was a point in time before which God existed but we were not even conceived of yet. Do you believe that?

There was no point in time at before which God existed, and there was point in time at which we were not conceived of. That is the point: God’s knowledge is eternal. He does not learn anything or add to his knowledge. That is the definition of omniscience.

I mean neither we nor time is eternal. Time started sometime.

Yes, at creation.

At that point God began by making angels, I believe. Still hadn't thought about making man. Do you agree?

No, not at all. And I imagine the lack of scriptural support here is evidence that you don’t have any scriptural support.

Ah! I see where you err. God knows in eternity past what Joe will do, right? But Joe did it by making a free will choice in the course of his lifetime.

After God foreknew all, He predestined Joe, wrapped time all up in a "package" that we call "foreordination" or God's "decree" that y'all talk about. That doesn't mean that Joe didn't make the decision freely choosing between life and death -- it means that God anticipated it in His plan. It's not a matter that Joe can't freely choose -- it's that his choice is already anticipated in God's plan.

Well … this seems like a convoluted explanation. Here again is the point: If God knew that Joe would reject, then Joe has no option but to reject. If you invite him to a gospel service where the Scripture is clearly preached, Joe cannot change his mind. God’s knowledge has rendered his rejection certain.

Therefore, Joe has personal sovereignty over his decision. He made his choice freely (able to choose Christ or reject Him) and what scripture tells us is that God foreknew which Joe would choose.

How did he make a free choice when he did not even exist? And how does he have sovereignty if he can’t change his mind when he does exist? Do you not see how that makes no sense at all?

OK, only an "academician" would come up with this so that scripture wouldn't be taken serioiusly so let's try another tact.

Actually, Hebraisms are well known and recognized figures of speech, just as we have in English in things like “raining cats and dogs,” or other figures of speech. I think we should take Scripture seriously, but that is funny to hear you say since you don’t do that.

Do you believe in justification, sanctification, and glorification??

Yes.

Do you see that the soul must be justified, the spirit sanctified and the body glorified in order to save man "wholly?" I don't think you do, do you. Well, them's the facts and ya gotta deal with 'em.

Soul - spirit - body.

So can you demonstrate this from Scripture? Of course not. You know you can’t. You are just making this up.

Does eternity have a beginning? I say no. Does time have a beginning? I say yes. Therefore, there is a point when time began and there had been a whole lot of eternity prior to it.

No and Yes. We agree on that.

OK, Eph 1:4-5. How do we get "chosen in Christ?" Does God chooses us or do we choose Christ? It's through Christ for sure, right? And it just happens (or does it) that God only picks believers, right? Wouldn't you say that He "chose us in Christ" according to His foreknowledge rather than because He was going to force Himself on random people?

He doesn’t force himself on random people. And he does not choose us based on his foreknowledge of our choice of Christ. He elects us by his grace so that we will choose Christ. (I swear I spend half my time repeating myself … why not listen???? )

Incidentally, that 1:5 tells us even more. "...predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to His good pleasure." That is, we are predestinated according to His good pleasure, not saved according thereto. Do you see that?

That’s not incidental at all. It is part of it. His good pleasure modifies the whole process.

2Thes 2:13. We have already discovered that this has a similar formulation, to wit: "...chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:...." He chose you on account of "belief in the truth." Who's belief, Larry?? YOUR belief which He foresaw.

You are not reading the text. The text does not say that he chooses on account of belief in the truth. There is a way in Greek to say that and this is not it. The salvation comes through sanctification and belief. The choosing is to salvation. Again, you don’t get to make up the text. God said what he said. Your job is to accept it.

If God could make you believe the truth, He should have and could have done that to everyone!

So now you are questioning the omnipotence of God? He can’t do this?

Why, if He "so loves the world," would He not?

Because he has a greater purpose.

1Pet 1:2 we also discussed -- "Elect according to foreknowledge..." --foreknowledge that we would believe. You're having trouble in dealing with the words "according to" and "through" aren't you?

No, you are not reading the text and taking it seriously. You are abusing it to fit your notions.

2Tim 2:10 we have already seen speaks of Israel, God's OT "elect" whose "brother" Paul was.

You have never shown this. To the contrary I showed Scripture which clearly shows that the elect are not Jews. I noticed you never responded.

Then you believe that you were sanctified (see above) before you were justified?

No of course not. Here is the major problem: You apparently cannot read with comprehension. You see everything through your own preconceived lens. You twist my words just like you do God’s. It’s no big deal when you do it to me, though it renders conversation fruitless. It is a big deal when you do it to God.

Not if I couldn't "reach" him.

I wouldn’t let my son get close to it with me being able to reach him.

Doesn't God have to "speak" to us? That's my point.

Yes.

So it is "unsupportable," for instance, that God tried to "gather Israel like a hen" but "they would not?"

No, that is the clear text of Scripture. No one denies that.

Your interpretation of Jesus remarks about Tyre and Sidon, while literal, could never have been historically correct, Larry. There was NO WAY God could have sent Christ to Tyre and Sidon any more than He could blown the rapture trump 10 years ago. Christ was merely comparing the people of the 2 ages.

Really? So now you are telling God what he cannot do? God did many miracles in the OT. He wasn’t limited to the time of Christ. But he could have sent Christ whenever he chose.

SP, you are hopeless until you submit your mind and will to Scripture and to God. This has become absolutely ridiculous. You will not accept the text of Scripture. You change it to meet your own ideas, and I and others have demonstrated that time and time again. You don’t listen. You don’t engage ideas. You simply repeat the same old stuff you have been saying that was wrong the first time.

When will this change for you? When will the Scripture become something other than a pawn your theological game?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Deny for me the Calvinist belief that God sits passively by allowing those who are "chosen to reprobation" to go straight to hell. He allows them to be born, to rebel all their lives without any chance of repenting (since they can't "hear" God), and then to go where He has chosen them to. I'd call that "sitting idly by" while the lost go to the damnation He chose for them, wouldn't you?

How are you any different? Your view does the same thing.

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoy,

Deny for me the Calvinist belief that God sits passively by allowing those who are "chosen to reprobation" to go straight to hell.

I will let the Calvinists speak for themselves. I am a Primitive Baptist, not a Calvinist.

He allows them to be born, to rebel all their lives without any chance of repenting (since they can't "hear" God), and then to go where He has chosen them to.

Oh, you mean God sits in His laboratory somewhere, creates human beings, then lets them run around wallowing in sin, not doing anything about it ?

And then He has this thing which He created where these stupid souls will then be fried, and then He will sit in His throne clapping His hands in glee while their flesh fry and their screams tear through eternity ?

I guess you haven't read your Bible at all.

Just in case you forgot, God very fairly warned Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit of the tree he will surely die. And in case you forgot, the Bible you hold says that sin, and death, entered thru one man, and that the wages of sin is death.

Adam chose freely being the only creation on earth who really, really had free will, and he blew it. Totally. For you and me. From then on, mankind was hellbound along with Satan and his angels.

Mankind has a corrupt nature, bound to sin, slave to it, permeated by it, in and out, so that even the Apostle Paul had to cry out that he knows that in him dwelleth no good thing.

And did God sit idly by ? Did He rub His hands in glee, and with an impish, evil grin sat back in front of His TV with His popcorn to watch the drama unfold ?

You tell us. You say you're going to heaven. On whose merits ? Yours ?

Yeah, right.

Oh, no, of course you will say....."Christ did it for me, Christ took the penalty for me.....His blood cleansed me.....He is my substitute.... He is my Advocate....I am hid in Him".....

And why ?

Who told Christ to do it for you ?

Yeah, right, God sat idly by, popping corn into His mouth.

I'd call that "sitting idly by" while the lost go to the damnation He chose for them, wouldn't you?

skypair

I wouldn't, because I know my God better than you know yours, and respect Him more than you do yours.

 

[skypair]

As for knowable beforehand, it wasn’t a point in time. God’s knowledge is eternal or else you have process theism or open theism (variations of the same idea).

There was no point in time at before which God existed, and there was point in time at which we were not conceived of. That is the point: God’s knowledge is eternal. He does not learn anything or add to his knowledge. That is the definition of omniscience.

You seem to be ignoring that "time" is a CREATION of God. It has beginning and end. And if there was a something eternally before it, there was a period when NOTHING was even known about it.

In fact, I truly believe that God created time as a framework to gather believers to Himself without Him having to create each believer from "scratch" -- like a "recipe" that always comes out the same!! :laugh:

Well … this seems like a convoluted explanation. Here again is the point: If God knew that Joe would reject, then Joe has no option but to reject. If you invite him to a gospel service where the Scripture is clearly preached, Joe cannot change his mind. God’s knowledge has rendered his rejection certain.

Well, you're getting there. :thumbs: Joe has no option so far as the outworking of God's decree -- but he does so far as where God got His "material" from -- His foreknowledge. God has already seen this day and Joe has already, in God's foreknowledge, decided. But that doesn't take the choice to receive or reject away from Joe. Joe is FREE to make either decision and only God knows beforehand what that decision will be.

How did he make a free choice when he did not even exist?

In the foreknowledge of God Joe made a decision.

And how does he have sovereignty if he can’t change his mind when he does exist? Do you not see how that makes no sense at all?

I can see it is confusing to you, yes. I think it is a "blind spot" that perhaps Calvinism tries to "heal" for its adherents. By calling "foreknowledge" "predestination," it glosses over the mechanism by which salvation truly come -- free will.

Take the alternatives, though --- God can choose believers whom He foresees or God can choose people whom He predestines to believe. How does that latter work in your head?? Does it really make sense to you that God could cause only certain random people to believe? How? Does He "pass over" some who believe but whom He didn't choose (Are there people you know who think they believe and don't?)?

I heard John MacArthur the other day talking about the development of Christianity and how the Reformation gave way to a period of "rationalism" where people taught God logically. Of course, that led to liberalism but I don't think the effort is totally lost. We should be able to understand these things for those who are weaker in faith, no? So these (above) are questions I would have of you.

I think we should take Scripture seriously, but that is funny to hear you say since you don’t do that.

Oh, please! Spare me your affectations.

So can you demonstrate this from Scripture? Of course not. You know you can’t. You are just making this up.

Again, spare me your sophistries. Of course I can demonstrate the soul's justification, spiritual sanctification, and the body's glorification from scripture. You mean you can't???

What is Jesus going to do with our bodies, Larry? Glorify them, right?

What does the Holy Spirit do to our spirits? Sanctifies them -- gives us the "mind of Christ." That is why He is called the "Spirit." God's Spirit parallels our own spirit.

As to the soul --- what was it that God gave every believing OT saint? Not the Holy Spirit indwelling, was it. It was "the righteousness of God." How so? Their consciences were pure. Paul speaks of it all the time.

But this feels like when I asked my 12 year old son what 2 X 2 equalled. He hemed and hawed and after I asked him what 2 twos was said, "I don't know." So I turn to his 6 year old sister and said, "What is 2 X 2, Steph?" "4" was her reply. I mean, Larry, you either "know" this and won't admit it or didn't get much of an education!

And he does not choose us based on his foreknowledge of our choice of Christ. He elects [obviously randomly] us by his grace so that we will choose Christ.

See, here you have just substituted Calvin's words for scripture. Scripture says "elects us by His Son" and you say "by His grace" taking it totally out of the true basis of His choosing ---- CHRIST!! Do you NOW see how those 2 sentences contradict scripture?? Not "by grace," "by CHRIST."

No, you are not reading the text and taking it seriously. You are abusing it to fit your notions.

Suppose the "log" in your eye was bigger that the "moat" in mine. I guess now that we have gone over those verses and still cannot have the same "Spirit" about them, it is left for me to make other approaches.

You have never shown this. To the contrary I showed Scripture which clearly hows that the elect are not Jews. I noticed you never responded.

I did. I "seconded" what another poster said who said the same thing before me.

Here is the major problem: You apparently cannot read with comprehension.

A British tabloid once held a contest rewarding the best answer to the question "What is the biggest impediment to world peace?" Lord Chesterton responded with 3 words -- "It is me."

Larry, I am trying to take Lord Chesterton's remarks on my own behalf. I am NOT trying to confuse you or mix up the scriptures. It seems you have learned a way to read them that I am not familiar with -- and that while knowing that the Holy Spirit tells me directly opposite of what you tell me.

Maybe one of us is a communist. Do you think? One of us wants peace but only on his own terms, eh? :laugh:

Really? So now you are telling God what he cannot do?

As we already know about Calvinism, there is a big problem with time for them. Not only can they not conceive of God "seeing beforehand" anything He didn't decide Himself, but they cannot see that our free will decisions could be seen by omniscient God before we even made them. So now when I say that Christ could NOT have come to Tyre and Sidon, that His remarks were supposition, you want to accuse me of telling God what He can't do??

But he could have sent Christ whenever he chose.

And He chose not. Like I said, Jesus remarks were conjectural.

You simply repeat the same old stuff you have been saying that was wrong the first time.

Actually, it seems to be you making that same defenses over and over. We'd been through those verses you gave numerous times. I only oblige you hoping that the Spirit will show them to you afresh. Slim hope, huh.

When will this change for you? When will the Scripture become something other than a pawn your theological game?

Or Calvinism in yours?? Believe me, I'm trying to change by not being disrespectful of you as I was. By trying to deal with your questions and confusions as honestly and scripturally as I can. I'm praying for you regularly. I can't deny scriptures though, Larry. If I put the emphasis somewhere, it is because 1) it is there and 2) that you put it elsewhere. Bottom line: We are not elect unto salvation, Larry. We are "elect" to ministry and blessings THROUGH Christ. I don't know how you can believe we are "elect" without Christ.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Oh, you mean God sits in His laboratory somewhere, creates human beings, then lets them run around wallowing in sin, not doing anything about it ?

And then He has this thing which He created where these stupid souls will then be fried, and then He will sit in His throne clapping His hands in glee while their flesh fry and their screams tear through eternity ?

Those aren't my beliefs. If that is how choose to characterize Calvinist belief, I'd say you were "right on!"

Just in case you forgot, God very fairly warned Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit of the tree he will surely die. And in case you forgot, the Bible you hold says that sin, and death, entered thru one man, and that the wages of sin is death.

Tell that to a Calvinist who says that God predestined Adam to sin. I haven't forgotten any of that.

...and he blew it. Totally. For you and me. From then on, mankind was hellbound along with Satan and his angels.

Tell it to the babies that get aborted and go to hell every day, pinoy. I DON'T believe a word of it and I doubt you will either after you speak to them.

Mankind has a corrupt nature, bound to sin, slave to it, permeated by it, in and out, so that even the Apostle Paul had to cry out that he knows that in him dwelleth no good thing.

PERVERT!! Read the text again, pinoy! Rom 7:18 -- "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:..." Apologize this minute for trying to destroy the words of the Spirit!!

You tell us. You say you're going to heaven. On whose merits ? Yours ?

I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ nor that I believe it nor that God receives me into His kingdom on that basis, if that is what you mean.

I wouldn't, because I know my God better than you know yours, and respect Him more than you do yours.

But this is an ADMISSION on your part that we have different Gods? That's insightful. So perhaps we have different "Spirits" too? I can see that. Here's a list. Which ones do you think worship the same God as you (you can give more than one answer)?

Secular Humanists
Mormons
Catholics
Calvinists
Methodists
Southern Baptists

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

Those aren't my beliefs. If that is how choose to characterize Calvinist belief, I'd say you were "right on!"

Oh, the Calvinist posted that ? Not you ? That is not how you characterize God and then put that characterization in the mouth of Calvinists ? Like I asked before, what are you, a crooked lawyer ?

Tell that to a Calvinist who says that God predestined Adam to sin. I haven't forgotten any of that.

Name names, old man. This is an open board. Name the Calvinist who says God predestined Adam to sin. Quote him. Find the post number. From what I have read of your posts so far, you have the propensity to say things about what Calvinists believe which when examined closely shows you to either twist meanings or misquote the person or both.

Maybe a Calvinist said that, but I don't believe all Calvinists believe that way.

Tell it to the babies that get aborted and go to hell every day, pinoy. I DON'T believe a word of it and I doubt you will either after you speak to them.

Babies ? Now you bring babies into the picture ? What on earth has babies got to do with this ?

you had too much caffeine or something?

PERVERT!! Read the text again, pinoy! Rom 7:18 -- "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:..." Apologize this minute for trying to destroy the words of the Spirit!!

Who's the pervert here ? What, you don't live in a body of sin ? You didn't need God to be merciful on you and save you, not for one minute ? You have a glorified body already, skypair ? No, old man, you need to apologize right this minute to the Spirit, not me. I know who I was, and who I am, and I know who I owe my salvation to. You, on the other hand, don't seem to know anything except how good you are.

Here are some more Scriptures, old man. Chew on them, and see who's the pervert.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Eph 4:22

And here's one more you can chew on, skypair:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 john 1:8

You may not believe that all men are born under sin, under the dominion of sin, but the Bible is clear, and you are murky.

Even the child of God will be dominated by sin were it not for the Holy Spirit indwelling the child of God. You wish to refute that ? I sure would love to see you trip all over yourself fighting the clear word of God on the nature of mankind.

I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ nor that I believe it nor that God receives me into His kingdom on that basis, if that is what you mean.

The gospel of Christ did not save you, old fella. The gospel of Christ never hung on that cross, the gospel of Christ never bled and shed blood that washed away all your sins, you are not in the gospel of Christ, and the gospel of Christ is not in you. The gospel of Christ is the good news that God did not sit idly by while you, skypair, were on your way to judgment and hell.

The gospel of Christ is the good news that whereas God did not have to be merciful to anyone, and did not have to save anyone, He nevertheless chose to be merciful to you over Joe, and chose to voluntarily send His Son in your place, and taste death for you, a worthless sinner, when He did not have to.

The gospel of Christ is the good news that you have a Savior, whom you so grossly accuse of sitting idly by while sinners went to hell, a false characterization of God, blasphemous as it is, brought about by your hatred of a doctrine which robs you of glory while you pretend to be humble.

Whether you are ashamed of the gospel of Christ, or glory in it, is beside the point.

The point is that if God had simply sat idly by and tweedled his thumb while sinners went to hell, you wouldn't even have a gospel to glory in.

Capiz ? You seem to have a hard time comprehending arguments.

But this is an ADMISSION on your part that we have different Gods? That's insightful. So perhaps we have different "Spirits" too? I can see that. Here's a list. Which ones do you think worship the same God as you (you can give more than one answer)?

Secular Humanists
Mormons
Catholics
Calvinists
Methodists
Southern Baptists

Maybe you read it that way, I don't really care, so go ahead and read it any way you want.

But even many sinful, earthly seedlings with earthly fathers do not always understand their own fathers and have different viewpoints of their fathers.

Same thing with Christians.

Besides, my theology and creed do not have anything to do with my eternal salvation.

Like I said before, theology is earthbound. When I die, if perchance the blood was also shed for me, then I will sit at my Savior's feet and hear Him explain to me the Scriptures, and then and only then will I learn true, unadulterated, pure and heavenly theology.