Free choice to choose...

[AresMan]

AresMan; can you tell me why He chose you and didn't chose someone else.

I don't know. The Bible never explains other than that it is "the good pleasure of His will":

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What is there about you that caused God to plant the light of the Gospel in your heart?

That's the point. There is nothing about me that caused God to plant the light of the Gospel in my heart. If there were, then God would be a respector of persons and I would claim of "merit" or "worthiness" of salvation. I am not.

Why did God choose Abraham from Ur to be the father of a great nation?
Why did God choose the trickster Jacob to be the continue the lineage instead of the firstborn Esau?
Why did God choose Mary to conceive the Messiah?
Why did God choose to intervene in Paul's plot and shine His light and speak to him audibly to covert him and make him a missionary? Why did He not do that with others?

I do not understand this, but it seems to be evident from the Bible, and God is the cause of saving faith. He and He alone must receive all credit for salvation.

I find it very hard to believe that if all men are exactly the "same", then why would God pick one over the other to plant the light of the Gospel in his/her heart and not be a God who is a respector of persons. We can say that He has the right to choose who He want to choose, but if He chooses Jim over Joe, it would be showing favor to Jim, seems to me.

If God shows any favor to anyone for any reason, it is not because that person had anything good of himself, but that God had a purpose (which we may not understand) in doing so.

Psa 44:1 We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what work thou didst in their days, in the times of old.
Psa 44:2 How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
Psa 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favor unto them.

Psa 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
Psa 106:2 Who can utter the mighty acts of the LORD? who can show forth all his praise?
Psa 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;
Psa 106:5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
AresMan; can you tell me why He chose you and didn't chose someone else.

I don't know. The Bible never explains other than that it is "the good pleasure of His will":

At least you are honest. I like that answer, if you don't know, then we should say so.
To me showing respect of persons is to choose one above the other, when both are the same.

It seems to you that respect of persons is if one has done something to merit the respect.

You ususally can find the reason in ever instance why God chose who He did.
Abraham was because of "faith".
Jacob was I think because God saw before hand that Esau would sell his birthright.
Mary was a virgin and highly favored among women.
Paul was a predestinated vessel.

If God shows any favor to anyone for any reason, it is not because that person had anything good of himself, but that God had a purpose (which we may not understand) in doing so.

Corneilius prayers and alms came up before God.
Many scripture says "thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

Except that he's promised that he will redeem this universe, and God keeps his word because one of his essential characteristics is truth.

God's freedom, by the way, is not the freedom to do absolutely anything at all, but the freedom to fully express himself, the freedom to be completely who he is. That means there are some things he cannot do, not because he's not powerful enough to do them, but because they go against his nature.

Ok, I'll ask my papa to explain that one since It'll never get through in 'ere!

Thanks

 

[J.D.]

At least you are honest. I like that answer, if you don't know, then we should say so.
To me showing respect of persons is to choose one above the other, when both are the same.

It seems to you that respect of persons is if one has done something to merit the respect.

You ususally can find the reason in ever instance why God chose who He did.
Abraham was because of "faith".
Jacob was I think because God saw before hand that Esau would sell his birthright.
Mary was a virgin and highly favored among women.
Paul was a predestinated vessel.

Corneilius prayers and alms came up before God.
Many scripture says "thy faith hath made thee whole.

So the bottom line is that all these people were "good" in some way, as opposed to people that are "bad" in some way. Only the good can be saved?

 

[AresMan]

At least you are honest. I like that answer, if you don't know, then we should say so.

This is not the kind of "acknowledgement" on my part that you think you may be getting. This is the whole point I try to get across. All we know about God is what He has revealed in His word. Just because I cannot understand a paradox does not mean that it does not exist.

The Bible is clear that none are righteous nor seek after God (Rom 3:10-11). I believe this.
The Bible is clear that all are guilty before God and are completely responsible for their willful sin (Eze 18:2-9). I believe this.
The Bible is clear that one must believe in the finished work of Christ on the Cross to be saved (Acts 16:31). I believe this.
The Bible is clear that those who are saved were chosen before the foundation of the world, and that they were chosen for the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-7). I believe this.
The Bible is clear that no one can come to the Father except Jesus draws (as a fish in a net) him (John 6:35-40, 44). I believe this.

The fact that the Bible clearly teaches that man has a "choice" and is fully responsible for that "choice," that no one can come to Jesus except that they are given by the Father, and that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, and those who come and believe were chosen before the foundation of the world is an incomprehensible paradox. It is not necessary for man to understand it; only to believe it.

Do you accept this paradox for what it clearly is, or do you wish to deny one side (election of God) because you lean solely toward the other (faith exercised by man)?

To me showing respect of persons is to choose one above the other, when both are the same.

How is this "respect of persons"? Of what from an equal sample is God regarding?

It seems to you that respect of persons is if one has done something to merit the respect.

Does that not make sense according to the denotation of the term?

You ususally can find the reason in ever instance why God chose who He did.

Abraham was because of "faith".

Since Abraham was a pagan, living in the pagan city of Ur, did Abraham exercise faith before or after God chose to speak to him?

Jacob was I think because God saw before hand that Esau would sell his birthright.

God could have prevented him from doing that, just as He prevented Saul from persecuting Christians.
Jacob was no angel. Did Jacob exercise faith before or after God gave him the visions?

Mary was a virgin and highly favored among women.

I don't question that, but I don't see this clearly in Scripture. Maybe you can point it out. Scripture does say that she was favored by God. Was Mary the greatest and mostly godly woman who ever existed and ever will exist?

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.

Paul was a predestinated vessel.

I think you got that right. There was nothing good about Paul that would have made him special before God. God chose Paul to be His missionary for the good pleasure of His will. He could have chosen to shine a light and speak audibly to any other Pharisee to fulfill this purpose, but he chose Paul, the "chief of sinners" to be His vessel.

Corneilius prayers and alms came up before God.

Of course, since none seek after God, it takes light for one to do so. God may do this in any manner He wishes and in as many stages as He wishes.

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by a holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Here, since Cornelius was obviously familiar with Jewish culture, God gave him some light that other Gentiles were not so privileged.
An angel appeared to him in a vision, revealing more light.
God spoke to Peter to go to Cornelius.
When Peter arrived, Cornelius worshipped Peter.
When Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those that heard. All of them which the Holy Spirit fell upon believed.

Many scripture says "thy faith hath made thee whole.

Of course. The faith comes from God and it becomes your own. Since the Bible also says that no one came come to the Father except the Son draw (drag) him, and that all that the Father gives will come, the only logical (and Scriptural) conclusion is that those who exercise saving faith were given it by God.

A (believer) possesses B (faith) to yield C (salvation).
A (believer) cannot obtain C (salvation) except D (the Son) draws [drags] him.
E (the Father) gives A (believer) to D (the Son) to be drawn [dragged].

Therefore, E (God the Father) by giving A (believer) to D (the Son) to be drawn [dragged] must also grant A (believer) B (faith) to yield C (salvation).

 

[pinoybaptist]

Uhm....read those quotes in context—the whole context.

Ironically, those quotes are taken from a section of the institutes called "ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD." The entire section is about how people can be sure they are elect. The two quotes you've quoted are about "inquiring about [one's election] out of the proper way." In this case, tthat'd be by trying to peer into God's mind for some sign of it. It's this particular improper way of looking for certainty of one's election that will make one miserable—that will shipwreck faith.

Skypair red the context ? Gosh, that's just asking too much. You might as well ask a dog to sing, or a bird to bark !

As long as he can get away with it, he won't, especially if an article is too long people won't bother seeing if what he says is true, and most especially if by un-contexting something he can destroy a theology that threatens his vision of uniting Christians under himself.

 

[Brother Bob]

So the bottom line is that all these people were "good" in some way, as opposed to people that are "bad" in some way. Only the good can be saved?

Some chose to believe int the Spirit that strives with all men.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
At least you are honest. I like that answer, if you don't know, then we should say so.

This is not the kind of "acknowledgement" on my part that you think you may be getting. This is the whole point I try to get across. All we know about God is what He has revealed in His word. Just because I cannot understand a paradox does not mean that it does not exist.

The Bible is clear that none are righteous nor seek after God (Rom 3:10-11). I believe this.
No, but the Bible is also clear that faith leads us to salvation.

The Bible is clear that all are guilty before God and are completely responsible for their willful sin (Eze 18:2-9). I believe this.
Agree.

The Bible is clear that one must believe in the finished work of Christ on the Cross to be saved (Acts 16:31). I believe this.
This is where it all lies, "you must believe". I agree.

The Bible is clear that those who are saved were chosen before the foundation of the world, and that they were chosen for the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-7). I believe this.
I believe God saw the choice they made and worked accordingly.

The Bible is clear that no one can come to the Father except Jesus draws (as a fish in a net) him (John 6:35-40, 44). I believe this.
If I be lifted up, I will draw all men. Of course you must be drawn but you also must become willing and believe.

The fact that the Bible clearly teaches that man has a "choice" and is fully responsible for that "choice," that no one can come to Jesus except that they are given by the Father, and that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, and those who come and believe were chosen before the foundation of the world is an incomprehensible paradox. It is not necessary for man to understand it; only to believe it.
I always accept "belief".

Do you accept this paradox for what it clearly is, or do you wish to deny one side (election of God) because you lean solely toward the other (faith exercised by man)?
By Grace "through faith". It is the works of God that a man have faith to be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
To me showing respect of persons is to choose one above the other, when both are the same.

How is this "respect of persons"? Of what from an equal sample is God regarding?
If God chose a man for say "belief", then it would not be respect of persons but because of the belief. If God chose man over man for no reason, it would be respect of persons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
It seems to you that respect of persons is if one has done something to merit the respect.

Does that not make sense according to the denotation of the term?
NO.
I am sure your neighbor "respects you", because of the kind of man you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
You ususally can find the reason in ever instance why God chose who He did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Abraham was because of "faith".

Since Abraham was a pagan, living in the pagan city of Ur, did Abraham exercise faith before or after God chose to speak to him?
God's Spirit strives with all men, including Abraham. Abraham then believed in God. He was striving with me and you before we had faith, as well as everyone else. He is not going to leave his creation to satan, without giving him understanding.
The Grace of God hath appeared to all men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Jacob was I think because God saw before hand that Esau would sell his birthright.

God could have prevented him from doing that, just as He prevented Saul from persecuting Christians.
Jacob was no angel. Did Jacob exercise faith before or after God gave him the visions?
No, I did not say Jacob was an angel. God not only could of Paul from persecuting Christians, Esau selling his birthright, but He could of kept us from sinning if that was His plan, but it wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Mary was a virgin and highly favored among women.

I don't question that, but I don't see this clearly in Scripture. Maybe you can point it out. Scripture does say that she was favored by God. Was Mary the greatest and mostly godly woman who ever existed and ever will exist?
Quote:
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
She certainly is according to scripture, the mother of Jesus. If it were predestinated, how could it of been any different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Paul was a predestinated vessel.

I think you got that right. There was nothing good about Paul that would have made him special before God. God chose Paul to be His missionary for the good pleasure of His will. He could have chosen to shine a light and speak audibly to any other Pharisee to fulfill this purpose, but he chose Paul, the "chief of sinners" to be His vessel.
Wonder why Paul said "who art thou Lord".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Corneilius prayers and alms came up before God.

Of course, since none seek after God, it takes light for one to do so. God may do this in any manner He wishes and in as many stages as He wishes.

Quote:
Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by a holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Here, since Cornelius was obviously familiar with Jewish culture, God gave him some light that other Gentiles were not so privileged.
An angel appeared to him in a vision, revealing more light.
God spoke to Peter to go to Cornelius.
When Peter arrived, Cornelius worshipped Peter.
When Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those that heard. All of them which the Holy Spirit fell upon believed.
His prayers and alms come up before God, before any of this happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Many scripture says "thy faith hath made thee whole.

Of course. The faith comes from God and it becomes your own. Since the Bible also says that no one came come to the Father except the Son draw (drag) him, and that all that the Father gives will come, the only logical (and Scriptural) conclusion is that those who exercise saving faith were given it by God.
I believe faith has to be your faith. Why would God need faith in Himself.

A (believer) possesses B (faith) to yield C (salvation).
agree

A (believer) cannot obtain C (salvation) except D (the Son) draws [drags] him.
agree

E (the Father) gives A (believer) to D (the Son) to be drawn [dragged].
The Son was God in the flesh, or at least He said He was.

Therefore, E (God the Father) by giving A (believer) to D (the Son) to be drawn [dragged] must also grant A (believer) B (faith) to yield C (salvation).

Believing in God and His promise is faith, and it is your faith, and God's works, that you must have that faith.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Just to clarify things, here's that whole chapter Skypair quoted out of context in order to make it appear as if Calvin is warning against people thinking they are elect when they are not. Those who know how to read and understand context, check it out:

source[/url]]
4. Therefore as those are in error who make the power of election dependent on the faith by which we perceive that we are elected, so we shall follow the best order, if, in seeking the certainty of our election, we cleave to those posterior signs which are sure attestations to it. Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater or more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election, he at the same time stimulates them with a depraved desire of inquiring after it out of the proper way. (See Luther in Genes. cap. 26). By inquiring out of the proper way, I mean when puny man endeavors to penetrate to the hidden recesses of the divine wisdom, and goes back even to the remotest eternity, in order that he may understand what final determination God has made with regard to him. In this way he plunges headlong into an immense abyss, involves himself in numberless inextricable snares, and buries himself in the thickest darkness. For it is right that the stupidity of the human mind should be punished with fearful destruction, whenever it attempts to rise in its own strength to the height of divine wisdom. And this temptation is the more fatal, that it is the temptation to which of all others almost all of us are most prone. For there is scarcely a mind in which the thought does not sometimes rise, Whence your salvation but from the election of God? But what proof have you of your election? When once this thought has taken possession of any individual, it keeps him perpetually miserable, subjects him to dire torment, or throws him into a state of complete stupor. I cannot wish a stronger proof of the depraved ideas, which men of this description form of predestination, than experience itself furnishes, since the mind cannot be infected by a more pestilential error than that which disturbs the conscience, and deprives it of peace and tranquillity in regard to God. Therefore, as we dread shipwreck, we must avoid this rock, which is fatal to every one who strikes upon it. And though the discussion of predestination is regarded as a perilous sea, yet in sailing over it the navigation is calm and safe, nay pleasant, provided we do not voluntarily court danger. For as a fatal abyss engulfs those who, to be assured of their election, pry into the eternal counsel of God without the word, yet those who investigate it rightly, and in the order in which it is exhibited in the word, reap from it rich fruits of consolation.

Those highlighted in blue are what Skypair lifted out of context.

Here's the rest of that section.

same source[/url]]
Let our method of inquiry then be, to begin with the calling of God and to end with it. Although there is nothing in this to prevent believers from feeling that the blessings which they daily receive from the hand of God originate in that secret adoption, as they themselves express it in Isaiah, "Thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth," (Isa. 25:1). For with this as a pledge, God is pleased to assure us of as much of his counsel as can be lawfully known. But lest any should think that testimony weak, let us consider what clearness and certainty it gives us. On this subject there is an apposite passage in Bernard. After speaking of the reprobate, he says, "The purpose of God stands, the sentence of peace on those that fear him also stands, a sentence concealing their bad and recompensing their good qualities; so that, in a wondrous manner, not only their good but their bad qualities work together for good. Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is completely sufficient for my justification to have him propitious against whom only I have sinned. Every thing which he has decreed not to impute to me, is as if it had never been." A little after he says, "O the place of true rest, a place which I consider not unworthy of the name of inner-chamber, where God is seen, not as if disturbed with anger, or distracted by care, but where his will is proved to be good, and acceptable, and perfect. That vision does not terrify but soothe, does not excite restless curiosity but calms it, does not fatigue but tranquilizes the senses. Here is true rest. A tranquil God tranquilizes all things; and to see him at rest, is to be at rest," (Bernard, super Cantic. Serm. 14).

Well, there you go. Calvin says beware of Satan because he wants you to be shaken in your trust. Keep your eyes on Christ and remember His mercy. (not verbatim, but at least I believe what I said to be in context with what this theologian is saying).

Uhmmm. Pervert. The dictionary defines pervert as:

1.to affect with perversion. 2.to lead astray morally. 3.to turn away from the right course. 4.to lead into mental error or false judgment. 5.to turn to an improper use; misapply. 6.to misconstrue or misinterpret, esp. deliberately; distort: to pervert someone's statement

 

[skypair]

Please do not twist the Bible and full verses out of context.

You know well that this passage is toward those that believe...and this is why they know. Even in your verse you post ...it says..."these things have I written unto you that believe"..

This has nothing to do with the non-believer. Shame on you.

Of course it doesn't, Ja. PL was saying that he and Calvinists knew they were saved. He has represented before that it was via 1John. I merely remarked that Calvin wasn't totally ignorant of the Bible -- those verses have been there to comfort believers for a long time.

The point is, if YOU don't get to choose Christ but are elected by God, you CAN'T know if you are saved. It's wasn't your decision and God has not shown you His "book of life."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Uhm....read those quotes in context—the whole context.

Ironically, those quotes are taken from a section of the institutes called "ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD." The entire section is about how people can be sure they are elect. The two quotes you've quoted are about "inquiring about [one's election] out of the proper way." In this case, tthat'd be by trying to peer into God's mind for some sign of it. It's this particular improper way of looking for certainty of one's election that will make one miserable—that will shipwreck faith.

In the very same section from which those two quotes are taken, Calvin gives some proper ways in which we can be certain of our election:

• we know that we lean on Christ alone.
• we hear his voice, we experience his protection, we see his work in us.

VEry good Russ. As you must know, I don't have "Institutes" in my library.

However, does Calvin give us the correct method of inquiry?? I would just say that Calvinism avoids the obivous way --- that we could know if it was for us to decide, right? If God really meant "choose ye this day" and we did choose life, we would know that we received the promise of eternal life.

These "proper ways" of Calvin's leave room for "strong delusion" - 2Thes 2:11-12. "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,..." Why? Do you believe the lost - say Mormons - can convince themselves that they are leaning on Christ alone? Do they think they "hear His voice, experience His protection, see His work" in them? Sure!

These are indirect assurances. The PROMISE is if WE choose on Christ, John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." That's the promise --- Calvin relies on God's on "election" -- something he admit we can't see.

Now what did you find about Satan trying to convince us that we are not saved?

skypair

 

[skypair]

How in the world do you expect the Holy Spirit to come in "rebirthing" you before you ever believe in God/Christ???

No problem really for those who believe it.

You can't even answer without making "believe" the basis for "rebirth!"

OK, what does one have to believe before one is regenerated? Here's your chance. I won't go any farther without you declaring your belief.

I wish it wasn't that way. It is hard to carry on a conversation with someone who won't even pretend that what I said was actually what I said.

As you see, I did get around to your reasons for believing you are saved and they coincide with what russ said Calvin said. It's the ISSUES you refuse to deal with, not my posts.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Larry,

And if you already believe you are regenerated "by grace," then how did God regenerate you without Christ??

Through the Spirit. It was not without Christ.

Didn't you just say "for those who believe it." Ostensibly, we could believe in regenration before belief and that would be enough, right?

I'm really having a problem with you not addressing the issues, Lar.

skypair

 

[russell55]

VEry good Russ. As you must know, I don't have "Institutes" in my library.

I don't have them either. They are all online here. That's a handy place to look up all those Calvin quotes anti-Calvinist sites put up. Quite often, when you see the quotes in their whole context, you'll find the quotes have been cherry-picked, and they are sometimes saying something quite different in context than the sites lead us to believe.

However, does Calvin give us the correct method of inquiry??

Yes. I gave them to you. Examine yourself to see if you are leaning on Christ's work alone for your salvation. Examine yourself to see if you can see God's work within you, etc.

Do you believe the lost - say Mormons - can convince themselves that they are leaning on Christ alone?

Mormons don't believe you can be saved by leaning on Christ's work alone. Their delusion is that they need to add their own works to Christ's. Perhaps a Mormon may convince themselves they are saved, but they would not be relying on Calvin's test to do it. They'd have to be relying on the sufficiency of their own works for their salvation.

These are indirect assurances. The PROMISE is if WE choose on Christ, John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

This is exactly what Calvin is saying. If someone is trusting (believing) in Christ for his salvation, then he can be sure of his election.

That's the promise --- Calvin relies on God's on "election" -- something he admit we can't see.

No, he doesn't. Read the section. He relies on one's trust in Christ as proof of election and proof of salvation.

Now what did you find about Satan trying to convince us that we are not saved?

Calvin says that Satan can use inquiry into the reasons why we are ELECT (NOTE: this is not the same thing as inquiring into the reasons why we are SAVED) to cause us to doubt.

 

[skypair]

Incorrect. Time was a creation by God. But God’s knowledge is eternal.

Please illuminate this with scripture. I can't even fathom what you are saying. Let's just take the "intelligent design" justification of creation --- it was intelligent. That is, it was thought out -- "engineered" if you will. If not, then creation existed with God and was not a creation, was it?

But you are ignoring the point. Joe can’t change his mind. He does not have that freedom because God’s knowledge is perfect. Therefore God allowed Joe to come into existence without the true choice of accepting Christ.

OK, I see what you are saying -- Joe didn't have a mind before creation. But you also just admitted/averred above that God knew Joe's mind from eternity -- real eternity to you -- past.

So, yeah, Joe didn't have a choice in the course of time. But God's foreknowledge was perfect and He could foresee what Joe's decision would be -- Christ or death. Do you believe God has that ability? Or not and that God designates Joe to heaven or hell sight unseen?

But how does a non-existent person make a decision?

I'm going with your line of reasoning for now. Go ahead.

I have never seen a Calvinist call “foreknowledge” predestination. There may be some. I haven’t seen it.

That's true. They realize how awkward that would be in lieu of Rom 8:29. Instead they have to "go even farther out on their already cracking limb" and say that God "foreloved" the "elect" -- knew them intimately, etc. Some will actually say that this is where God chooses the elect and then He predestines them. That makes sense -- all but this notion that He has no conditions on choosing whom He will.

I don’t think it is random in the least.

Explain to me how it couldn't be random. It certainly can't be by "respecting persons." That would also suggest knowledge beforehand which Calvinists deny vehemently.

This is typical from you. No actual Bible substance here. Just your own ideas. The Holy Spirit probably indwelled OT saints.

You don't even know when you are wrong?? Jesus said the Holy Spirit lived WITH them but now shall live IN them, John 14:17. What do you think was the big "hubbub" at Pentecost, Larry? Jer 31:31 said indwelling was for a future day. Ezek 37:14, Larry. For heaven's sake! Have you gone to seminary for nothing??

But that isn’t really the issue. The issue is that there is no real biblical distinction between the soul and the spirit. It is the immaterial part of man.

Your education is deficient, Larry. As I have noted before, scripture goes way beyond what Calvin allows or knew. Your knowledge of scripture is basically "frozen in time" -- it is as if Rip Van Winkle went to sleep 400 years ago and now came back to teach us about scripture. And with no even thought of updating his data base. Here are a list of the defects I find:

no distinction between soul and spirit
no distinction between "choosing" belief vs. the gift of faith
no understanding of sin nature and original sin (infants condemned)
no knowledge of why God chooses whom He does to salvation
no comprehension of God's sovereignty thereby making God the cause of sin, etc.
actual perversion of the meaning of "elect," "election," "foreknowledge," etc. -- many other terms.

Gotta go --- storm!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Studying the Bible and taking it seriously certainly means that there are some thing I don’t know. This is one of them.

So do you mind if I "fill you in?"

You are just making this up now. I don’t even think you take this seriously.

Believing in grace rather than in Christ for salvation, you mean. Well, let's just examine it. You just also told me that God "passes over" some who "believe" but aren't "elect." So there's the basis for saying you believe in something other than belief in Christ.

Then you say you have confidence that you are "elect" unto salvation.
So where do you think I get the idea that you depend on grace rather than on belief in Christ?

You say: We are not elect unto salvation, Larry. We are "elect" to ministry and blessings THROUGH Christ. I don't know how you can believe we are "elect" without Christ.

Compare that to this:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
2 Timothy 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Same verses we couldn't agree on before, eh? I said "chosen to salvation ... through faith in the truth" I can see where you are coming from in that it appears say saved by 1)regeneration and 2) then faith. I hadn't seen that before. And it is true! But it leaves out belief and foreknowledge. IOW, the very manner of God's choosing you is on account of foreknowledge/knowledge beforehand of your belief. This verse picks up talking about "election" (you substitute "chosen" I notice this time) saying that knowing that, God gave you 1) regeneration and 2) faith on account of His knowledge of your belief.

Here's where justification comes in. You were justified by belief first -- in your soul your conscience being turned to God and given His righteousness. Then, by way of sanctification, God gave you the 1) Spirit indwelling and 2) faith (after all, the Spirit IS the evidence of what you "hoped"/believed so faith does follow proof/evidence IAW Heb 11:1!) But the Bible certainly NEVER says that God's Spirit dwells in a filthy "house" of unbelief.

"Chosen" = Jews

skypair

 

[skypair]

People in America are affected by American ideals . We elect , we choose , we believe in rugged individualism as exemplified by those in the Andrew Jackson era . We believe in the free will of all people . Non-Christians have much in common with professing believers along these lines .

Wise insight, rip. In fact, Calvin pretty much wanted to restrict Geneva's religious life to his theology. And so, indeed, Calvinism doesn't like choices for anyone. That's called a "sacral society" -- society all belong to the same religion that is enforced by the gov't.

We live in -- and it is God's plan -- a "composite society" where diversity of views is welcomed so that, as Paul said, "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." 1Cor 11:19 That is the ONLY reason we let the Calvinists continue to exist! :laugh:

We are here debating because this is God's will. Believe me, this would not have been tolerated in any major society regardless of religion (true or pagan) prior to 1700.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I don't know. The Bible never explains other than that it is "the good pleasure of His will":

John 3:15 -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." The Bible DOES have something to say about it. He chose you according to YOUR belief.

That's the point. There is nothing about me that caused God to plant the light of the Gospel in my heart.

Belief, Ares.

If there were, then God would be a respector of persons and I would claim of "merit" or "worthiness" of salvation. I am not.

No, He would be called a "Keeper of Promises."

Why did God choose Abraham from Ur to be the father of a great nation.
Why did God choose the trickster Jacob to be the continue the lineage instead of the firstborn Esau?
Why did God choose Mary to conceive the Messiah?
Why did God choose to intervene in Paul's plot and shine His light and speak to him audibly to covert him and make him a missionary? Why did He not do that with others?

Because God is a Promise Keeper and when we believe or don't believe, He had promised us consequences.

I do not understand this, but it seems to be evident from the Bible, and God is the cause of saving faith. He and He alone must receive all credit for salvation.

He gets credit for making it available, sure. He did all He could do, something that Calvinism seems to deny in that their God never gives most people a chance.

skypair

 

[skypair]

So the bottom line is that all these people were "good" in some way, as opposed to people that are "bad" in some way. Only the good can be saved?

You're starting to get the Bible message, JD. You have to at least "believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that do righteously." Do you believe that?

skypair

 

[skypair]

pinoy,

Thank you. It IS always better to present skeptics with the whole passage in question.

4. Therefore as those are in error who make the power of election dependent on the faith by which we perceive that we are elected, so we shall follow the best order, if, in seeking the certainty of our election, we cleave to those posterior signs which are sure attestations to it.

No, this wouldn't be best. If scripture is to be believed, we must say that our best evidence is not that we can "fake it" like the Pharisees but that we CHOSE Christ. Basically, this part calls for Lordship Salvation where no salvation need exist.

Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater or more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election, he at the same time stimulates them with a depraved desire of inquiring after it out of the proper way. (See Luther in Genes. cap. 26). By inquiring out of the proper way, I mean when puny man endeavors to penetrate to the hidden recesses of the divine wisdom, and goes back even to the remotest eternity, in order that he may understand what final determination God has made with regard to him. In this way he plunges headlong into an immense abyss, involves himself in numberless inextricable snares, and buries himself in the thickest darkness. For it is right that the stupidity of the human mind should be punished with fearful destruction, whenever it attempts to rise in its own strength to the height of divine wisdom. And this temptation is the more fatal, that it is the temptation to which of all others almost all of us are most prone. For there is scarcely a mind in which the thought does not sometimes rise, Whence your salvation but from the election of God? But what proof have you of your election? When once this thought has taken possession of any individual, it keeps him perpetually miserable, subjects him to dire torment, or throws him into a state of complete stupor. I cannot wish a stronger proof of the depraved ideas, which men of this description form of predestination, than experience itself furnishes, since the mind cannot be infected by a more pestilential error than that which disturbs the conscience, and deprives it of peace and tranquillity in regard to God. Therefore, as we dread shipwreck, we must avoid this rock, which is fatal to every one who strikes upon it. And though the discussion of predestination is regarded as a perilous sea, yet in sailing over it the navigation is calm and safe, nay pleasant, provided we do not voluntarily court danger. For as a fatal abyss engulfs those who, to be assured of their election, pry into the eternal counsel of God without the word, yet those who investigate it rightly, and in the order in which it is exhibited in the word, reap from it rich fruits of consolation.

The first part of this is "scare tactics" and "sophistry" but the bold is good advice. However, Calvin denies us the only real proof we have of salvation and that is that we CHOSE Christ -- believed on Him. Instead, he recommends (like MacArthur, Boice. etal.) the testimony of a "holy life." Well, that just brings salvation all back to "works" again, now doesn't it. Assured salvation = faith + works.

Which begs the issue, are you saved or just "elect."

Let our method of inquiry then be, to begin with the calling of God and to end with it.

So it still depends on something we can't know -- whether it was God's call or our own. Whether we are "elect" or just think we are. How about begin and end with what you will do with Christ??

Although there is nothing in this to prevent believers from feeling that the blessings which they daily receive from the hand of God originate in that secret adoption, as they themselves express it in Isaiah, "Thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth," (Isa. 25:1). For with this as a pledge, God is pleased to assure us of as much of his counsel as can be lawfully known. But lest any should think that testimony weak, let us consider what clearness and certainty it gives us. On this subject there is an apposite passage in Bernard. After speaking of the reprobate, he says, "The purpose of God stands, the sentence of peace on those that fear him also stands, a sentence concealing their bad and recompensing their good qualities; so that, in a wondrous manner, not only their good but their bad qualities work together for good. Who will lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is completely sufficient for my justification to have him propitious against whom only I have sinned. Every thing which he has decreed not to impute to me, is as if it had never been." A little after he says, "O the place of true rest, a place which I consider not unworthy of the name of inner-chamber, where God is seen, not as if disturbed with anger, or distracted by care, but where his will is proved to be good, and acceptable, and perfect. That vision does not terrify but soothe, does not excite restless curiosity but calms it, does not fatigue but tranquilizes the senses. Here is true rest. A tranquil God tranquilizes all things; and to see him at rest, is to be at rest," (Bernard, super Cantic. Serm. 14).

This again is more sensing salvation by our circumstances. As Adrian used to say, "God isn't going to do His deepest work in your shallowest dimension [your emotions]."

But pinoy, I would be interested in hearing from you how what I said Calvin said differs from what Calvin said. What harm have I done to Cavlin's words? What harm to the word of God?

skypair