Free moral agency and the providence of God

[Brother Bob]

Well there is a big difference between prescience and God's knowing us. This has already been explained to you bob. If you didn't get it then.... I'm not sure you will now. In Psalms 139:16 All your days were written before there ever was one. To me this is saying that before there were days forseen... they were writen by God. Its like this. God made the movie. He does not know about the movie because He forsaw it... but because He made it. The way you put it is as if God has something to learn. He is all knowing bob. He is the ultimate cause. Man is not sovereign over God's choices of what we will do.

Then you don't believe in an "all knowing God".

[This thread is not about moderation; it is about free moral agency and the providence of God - rsr]

 

[reformedbeliever]

Then you don't believe in an "all knowing God".

How do you say that bob? Seriously. I just don't get where you come up with that. I'm open for you to show me.

 

[Allan]

Psalms 139:16 All your days were written before there ever was one. To me this is saying that before there were days forseen... they were writen by God. Its like this. God made the movie. He does not know about the movie because He forsaw it... but because He made it.

Ok, but in order to make a movie there must be a script or some knowledge of how it will proceed to its desired end. In other words there was knowledge before hand so that the movie will be made (determining) in the likeness of His foreknowledge.

I realize the analogy was probably a poor one (I would have used it to - but we are not actors play out our predetermind parts decided upon by the creator of the story) But not matter what analogy we use it will always hold to knowing something before it is done.

However, the fact we don't know How God knows anything makes all that we state here in merely guess work. All we know is that God foreknew then predestined. So ALMOST all views concerning what and how God knew are ONLY speculation and nothing more. Therefore all speculation will be done according to our theological bent(s) but should not be held as TRUTH in our theology but a view of that Truth.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Ok, but in order to make a movie there must be a script or some knowledge of how it will proceed to its desired end. In other words there was knowledge before hand so that the movie will be made (determining) in the likeness of His foreknowledge.

I realize the analogy was probably a poor one (I would have used it to - but we are not actors play out our predetermind parts decided upon by the creator of the story) But not matter what analogy we use it will always hold to knowing something before it is done.

However, the fact we don't know How God knows anything makes all that we state here in merely guess work. All we know is that God foreknew then predestined. So ALMOST all views concerning what and how God knew are ONLY speculation and nothing more. Therefore all speculation will be done according to our theological bent(s) but should not be held as TRUTH in our theology but a view of that Truth.

Ok Allen. I think I know what you said, but i'm not sure you know what you think you said......lol. Just trying to lighten up a bit. Yeah, the Bible is truth... and we can speculate all day long. I believe from the 139 verse, that all things are decreed by God, for God, and His glory. It is not based upon what He forsaw men would do.... to me that is man centered theology... of which we have way too much of today. I love God centered theology. I'm sure you do too. Grace and peace

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I guess not. Live and learn, we never get too old.

 

[Jarthur001]

the majority of people who who state they are free-Willers do not hold to the Calvinistic view of what free-will implies.

It is not about (from our view) us making amoral choices or to be able to choose what ever we want, whenever we want, (self soveriegnity) but are responsible to the choices that God has given to us with regard to obedience or disobedience to truth revealed. We believe God has the VERY RIGHT to step into to a persons decision making process to directly influence at ANYTIME He so chooses (and even does so), HOWEVER we beleive that God has given us or declared that 'WE' are to choose (those choices God has allowed to be before us) and held resposible to choices we make. ALL THE WHILE, God being indirectly or directly involved (as He pleases) to lead men unto righteousness but not MAKING men DO righteously.


Thank you James, that was the nicest thing anyone on BB has ever said about me.

It was good...was it not? We need to pick it back up again. Maybe after the years end...Lord willing.

 

[Jarthur001]

Bible verses that show God controls man...yet man makes a choice...

And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were round about Judah, so that they made no war against Jehoshaphat" (2 Chron. 17:10)

If God had not sent His fear on the other kingdoms, they would have made war with Judah.

For the prophecy came not at any time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet. 1:20, 21)

 

[Allan]

Brother Bob:

I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I guess not. Live and learn, we never get too old.

What or who is this addressed to??



James:

It was good...was it not? We need to pick it back up again

I agree it was good and would truly enjoy picking it back up. :thumbsup:

Also James:

Bible verses that show God controls man...yet man makes a choice...

And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were round about Judah, so that they made no war against Jehoshaphat" (2 Chron. 17:10)

I would not say that God CONTROLS man in the sense that man is but a puppet on a string (not that you said such but I am clarifying my meaning) but that man will 'choose' to do that which God desires. God uses differing means to bring forth the desired results in stead of direct control, as in the scripture above - God used fear in such a way that the nations around Judah choose to not war with them, but this choice was one in accordance with Gods will and mans decision.
>>>Edited In<<<
Was Mans the freedom to choose withheld and therefore violated with regard to Gods intervention?
Was Gods Sovereignty impuned with Man allowed to choose what they will do?
The answer to both is...No.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob:
Quote:
I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I guess not. Live and learn, we never get too old.
What or who is this addressed to??

A couple of my posts had been removed and I begin to wonder if I really posted them Allan.

 

[2BHizown]

I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I guess not. Live and learn, we never get too old.

Hey Bro Bob, You're still young! I'd stay out of cold creeks though and not tempt providence! God does expect us to be good stewards of what He has given to us!

 

[2BHizown]

A man's heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps!
Proverbs 16:9

Yes, we make our decisions but behind all that the Lord is directing the whole outcome just as He controlled the battles in the OT. Providence rules!