Free moral agency and the providence of God

This is not what the text says as I pointed out in my post. God didn't turn it into something good, God was behind it. GOD sent me...Not you!! is what the text says.

This is not little matter....God was the cause.

I did not post how this was done...but the Bible tells us this too.

How did God make the brothers send Joe...and yet the brothers thought it was their idea? Its in the Bible.

 

Hello.....

Wrong. You only state one way. God can indeed change the will. God could bring thoughts of your loving wife and make you change your will. NO? Or...God could stop you, and you still have your will. In both ways God was the determining factor of you not jumping. right???????????

Wrong again. nope..not so. You only play out one side. God can indeed change your will. ..right??

This is very true, and Calvinist as well as non Calvinist should take heart. Yet the fact remains a Joe somewhere has died with not hearing. God can blaim it on us for not telling, but Joe still does not know.

I'm sure you know the story of david livingston<<(A Calvinist btw) after he lead a witchdoctor to the Lord, the WD said...."but you and your fathers have known this gospel for a long time. Why do you just now come to tell? Many of our fathers are dead"

Humm why indeed

 

No, I made a statement.

Here is a question for ya: Do you think God predetermined all things that will ever happen, and now He is just watching it all play out? Or do you think God's foreknowledge involves a whole lot more than seeing, and He uses what He foreknows to accomplish His plan?

I think God's plan and His foreknowledge are two seperate things, and He uses what He knows to accomplish what He planned.

 

I would like to hear illustration to see your full view, if you have one. Then I'll give you my thoughts.

 

The more we discuss this, the more I find we are in agreement on many things. I don't know if 'free-will' is the best label for what I believe, because I do believe that my will is only free to a point. For instance, if God put it into my heart to go preach the gospel to Joe in Iran, and I was willing to do it, how could I claim it was my own free-will decision to go, I would be taking all the credit, and that does not glorify God.

 

Yes, I agree. God is not waiting to see what will happen, or what He may have to do. He already knows the beginning to the end. He knows what He is going to do, and what is going to happen. No matter how hard we try to understand it, I'm not sure we can, nor do I think we are able to explain it. (Though we try) It is fun, and I believe your guess is as good as mine. But it is only a guess.

There are some things we can know from the Bible. I am sure we agree on everything that is clear in scripture. It is when we go beyond what the Bible says, and we speculate, that we end up in disagreement.

 

Yep, but it is still fun. :smilewinkgrin:

There are many different views on just about any thing you can think of on these forums. If one is not careful, he could become very confused. That is why I may seem difficult at times. I am not about to subscribe to any doctrine, that is not clear in the Bible, without examining it and challenging it from every angle I can.

Some folks think these debates are silly. I think they are useful, if they cause you to search the scriptures and purify your views.

 

The word that Calvinist do not like, is FREE is in freewill. Man does have a will. Man has choices. But God places the choices in front of him. Classic Calvinisim, which is what I am, holds to both Gods sovereignty and human responsibility. Allan and I had a very good thread going on this a few months ago. It had the name "robots" in it, that is all I can remember. That had to be the best thread I posted in since joining BB.

But..anyway..We hardly get to this human responsibility, for we always fight over election. Maybe someday we will. Now all Calvinist do not hold to this, but most of the Big Names did or do. I thought one thread would...but it was taken over.

 

the majority of people who who state they are free-Willers do not hold to the Calvinistic view of what free-will implies.

It is not about (from our view) us making amoral choices or to be able to choose what ever we want, whenever we want, (self soveriegnity) but are responsible to the choices that God has given to us with regard to obedience or disobedience to truth revealed. We believe God has the VERY RIGHT to step into to a persons decision making process to directly influence at ANYTIME He so chooses (and even does so), HOWEVER we beleive that God has given us or declared that 'WE' are to choose (those choices God has allowed to be before us) and held resposible to choices we make. ALL THE WHILE, God being indirectly or directly involved (as He pleases) to lead men unto righteousness but not MAKING men DO righteously.


Thank you James, that was the nicest thing anyone on BB has ever said about me.

 

Sure you are making sense, now take it the other way to the beginning where God knows all things and apply it to who will believe and who will not.

 

Did anyone see where they closed 3 threads this morning in about 1-2 hours?