Free moral agency and the providence of God

[Jarthur001]

WOW...good stuff. huh?? (Yes, God is awesome. Nothing is impossible for God. He can take a bad situation, brought about by the will of bad people, and turn it into something that ends well, and in accordance to His will.)

This is not what the text says as I pointed out in my post. God didn't turn it into something good, God was behind it. GOD sent me...Not you!! is what the text says.

This is not little matter....God was the cause.

I did not post how this was done...but the Bible tells us this too.

How did God make the brothers send Joe...and yet the brothers thought it was their idea? Its in the Bible.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I am open to learn as well.

It seems that you are combining two things that are seperated in scripture. (God's foreknowledge, and His determinate counsel)

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This verse speaks of three important things.
- Jesus Christ being taken, tried, and crucified, was an unchangeable event. (part of God's fixed plan)
- God knew this before it happened.
- The Jews decided to do it, did it, and were guilty of it.

I'm sorry....... did you have a question?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello.....

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
You only look at man. In the case if God stopped your will. God is the determining factor of you not jumping. (God did not stop my will, He stopped the result of my will. I am still guilty of deciding to jump, God stopping my action did not stop or change my will.)

Wrong. You only state one way. God can indeed change the will. God could bring thoughts of your loving wife and make you change your will. NO? Or...God could stop you, and you still have your will. In both ways God was the determining factor of you not jumping. right???????????

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
Now...Can God stop you or is He bound to your will? If God can stop you, and does not it is God that is the determining factor of your jump. Does God have the power or is He limited to what your will be done? If you say God gives man freewill and God will not step in and stop you because of freewill, then man will is the determining factor of your jump. (God CAN stop me, he is not bound by my will. If God does not stop me, he ALLOWED my will to be done. If God does stop me, He has stopped my action, though my will may not have changed.)

Wrong again. nope..not so. You only play out one side. God can indeed change your will. ..right??

If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?
How did you hear? Was God a factor in you hearing/understanding? Were you born and on day 3 think, man!! i want to be saved?

1st...if God brought the good news to your door, it is God that was the determining factor.

1a) Did Joe from iran, hear the gospel as you? Why not?

2nd..If God gave you understanding of the gospel, then God was the determining factor.

2a) Do all that hear the word understand their need to be saved? Why?(Everything that brought about my salvation is from God. Left to myself, I would have never sought Him. I came to know Christ through the preaching of the word, without having heard it, I would have had nothing to believe in. If Joe from Iran has not heard the gospel yet, it is because God's command to preach the gospel to every creature has not been obeyed.)

This is very true, and Calvinist as well as non Calvinist should take heart. Yet the fact remains a Joe somewhere has died with not hearing. God can blaim it on us for not telling, but Joe still does not know.

I'm sure you know the story of david livingston<<(A Calvinist btw) after he lead a witchdoctor to the Lord, the WD said...."but you and your fathers have known this gospel for a long time. Why do you just now come to tell? Many of our fathers are dead"

Humm why indeed

 

[Blammo]

I'm sorry....... did you have a question?

No, I made a statement.

Here is a question for ya: Do you think God predetermined all things that will ever happen, and now He is just watching it all play out? Or do you think God's foreknowledge involves a whole lot more than seeing, and He uses what He foreknows to accomplish His plan?

I think God's plan and His foreknowledge are two seperate things, and He uses what He knows to accomplish what He planned.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, I made a statement.

Here is a question for ya: Do you think God predetermined all things that will ever happen, and now He is just watching it all play out? Or do you think God's foreknowledge involves a whole lot more than seeing, and He uses what He foreknows to accomplish His plan?

I think God's plan and His foreknowledge are two seperate things, and He uses what He knows to accomplish what He planned.

I would like to hear illustration to see your full view, if you have one. Then I'll give you my thoughts.

 

[Blammo]

Quote:
If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
You only look at man. In the case if God stopped your will. God is the determining factor of you not jumping. (God did not stop my will, He stopped the result of my will. I am still guilty of deciding to jump, God stopping my action did not stop or change my will.)
Wrong. You only state one way. God can indeed change the will. God could bring thoughts of your loving wife and make you change your will. NO? Or...God could stop you, and you still have your will. In both ways God was the determining factor of you not jumping. right???????????

(I already mentioned once before that God could influence and change my mind. That does not change the fact that I decided to jump in the first place.)


Quote:
If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
Now...Can God stop you or is He bound to your will? If God can stop you, and does not it is God that is the determining factor of your jump. Does God have the power or is He limited to what your will be done? If you say God gives man freewill and God will not step in and stop you because of freewill, then man will is the determining factor of your jump. (God CAN stop me, he is not bound by my will. If God does not stop me, he ALLOWED my will to be done. If God does stop me, He has stopped my action, though my will may not have changed.)

Wrong again. nope..not so. You only play out one side. God can indeed change your will. ..right??

(Again, yes, God can change influence me and cause me to change my mind. I am still the one who decided to jump in the first place.)



Quote:
If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?
How did you hear? Was God a factor in you hearing/understanding? Were you born and on day 3 think, man!! i want to be saved?

1st...if God brought the good news to your door, it is God that was the determining factor.

1a) Did Joe from iran, hear the gospel as you? Why not?

2nd..If God gave you understanding of the gospel, then God was the determining factor.

2a) Do all that hear the word understand their need to be saved? Why?(Everything that brought about my salvation is from God. Left to myself, I would have never sought Him. I came to know Christ through the preaching of the word, without having heard it, I would have had nothing to believe in. If Joe from Iran has not heard the gospel yet, it is because God's command to preach the gospel to every creature has not been obeyed.)

This is very true, and Calvinist as well as non Calvinist should take heart. Yet the fact remains a Joe somewhere has died with not hearing. God can blaim it on us for not telling, but Joe still does not know.

I'm sure you know the story of david livingston<<(A Calvinist btw) after he lead a witchdoctor to the Lord, the WD said...."but you and your fathers have known this gospel for a long time. Why do you just now come to tell? Many of our fathers are dead"

Humm why indeed

The more we discuss this, the more I find we are in agreement on many things. I don't know if 'free-will' is the best label for what I believe, because I do believe that my will is only free to a point. For instance, if God put it into my heart to go preach the gospel to Joe in Iran, and I was willing to do it, how could I claim it was my own free-will decision to go, I would be taking all the credit, and that does not glorify God.

 

[reformedbeliever]

No, I made a statement.

Here is a question for ya: Do you think God predetermined all things that will ever happen, and now He is just watching it all play out? Or do you think God's foreknowledge involves a whole lot more than seeing, and He uses what He foreknows to accomplish His plan?

I think God's plan and His foreknowledge are two seperate things, and He uses what He knows to accomplish what He planned.

He forordained all things. He is intimately involved in all His creation in all time. He is omnipresent in all time, and outside time. Oh I think His foreknowledge involves a lot more than seeing. I think it involves an intimate relationship with His creation also. I think God can use anything He wishes to accomplish His own purposes, as long as it is not contrary to His nature.

 

[reformedbeliever]

He forordained all things. He is intimately involved in all His creation in all time. He is omnipresent in all time, and outside time. Oh I think His foreknowledge involves a lot more than seeing. I think it involves an intimate relationship with His creation also. I think God can use anything He wishes to accomplish His own purposes, as long as it is not contrary to His nature.

Also Blammo, I have often thought this. With God everything is a done deal. He is still working in time as we experience this thing called time.... but He is also in time after time. In other words... He is present in the eternity that we will some day experience... but yet He is here with us now. Am I making sense? lol It is as if everything is finished... the parousia... the judgement ... all of it, as far as God is concerned. He is there. We, however, are still in this dimension known as time.

 

[Blammo]

Also Blammo, I have often thought this. With God everything is a done deal. He is still working in time as we experience this thing called time.... but He is also in time after time. In other words... He is present in the eternity that we will some day experience... but yet He is here with us now. Am I making sense? lol It is as if everything is finished... the parousia... the judgement ... all of it, as far as God is concerned. He is there. We, however, are still in this dimension known as time.

Yes, I agree. God is not waiting to see what will happen, or what He may have to do. He already knows the beginning to the end. He knows what He is going to do, and what is going to happen. No matter how hard we try to understand it, I'm not sure we can, nor do I think we are able to explain it. (Though we try) It is fun, and I believe your guess is as good as mine. But it is only a guess.

There are some things we can know from the Bible. I am sure we agree on everything that is clear in scripture. It is when we go beyond what the Bible says, and we speculate, that we end up in disagreement.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, I agree. God is not waiting to see what will happen, or what He may have to do. He already knows the beginning to the end. He knows what He is going to do, and what is going to happen. No matter how hard we try to understand it, I'm not sure we can, nor do I think we are able to explain it. (Though we try) It is fun, and I believe your guess is as good as mine. But it is only a guess.

There are some things we can know from the Bible. I am sure we agree on everything that is clear in scripture. It is when we go beyond what the Bible says, and we speculate, that we end up in disagreement.

Amen! It is our logic that gets us in trouble. We can speculate all day long.... but that is all it is.

 

[Blammo]

Amen! It is our logic that gets us in trouble. We can speculate all day long.... but that is all it is.

Yep, but it is still fun. :smilewinkgrin:

There are many different views on just about any thing you can think of on these forums. If one is not careful, he could become very confused. That is why I may seem difficult at times. I am not about to subscribe to any doctrine, that is not clear in the Bible, without examining it and challenging it from every angle I can.

Some folks think these debates are silly. I think they are useful, if they cause you to search the scriptures and purify your views.

 

[Jarthur001]

The more we discuss this, the more I find we are in agreement on many things. I don't know if 'free-will' is the best label for what I believe, because I do believe that my will is only free to a point. For instance, if God put it into my heart to go preach the gospel to Joe in Iran, and I was willing to do it, how could I claim it was my own free-will decision to go, I would be taking all the credit, and that does not glorify God.

The word that Calvinist do not like, is FREE is in freewill. Man does have a will. Man has choices. But God places the choices in front of him. Classic Calvinisim, which is what I am, holds to both Gods sovereignty and human responsibility. Allan and I had a very good thread going on this a few months ago. It had the name "robots" in it, that is all I can remember. That had to be the best thread I posted in since joining BB.

But..anyway..We hardly get to this human responsibility, for we always fight over election. Maybe someday we will. Now all Calvinist do not hold to this, but most of the Big Names did or do. I thought one thread would...but it was taken over.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The word that Calvinist do not like, is FREE is in freewill. Man does have a will. Man has choices. But God places the choices in front of him. Classic Calvinisim, which is what I am, holds to both Gods sovereignty and human responsibility. Allan and I had a very good thread going on this a few months ago. It had the name "robots" in it, that is all I can remember. That had to be the best thread I posted in since joining BB.

But..anyway..We hardly get to this human responsibility, for we always fight over election. Maybe someday we will. Now all Calvinist do not hold to this, but most of the Big Names did or do. I thought one thread would...but it was taken over.

Yes, we are responsible for our choices. God's sovereign grace makes us responsible. We are more so responsible than someone who is lost. edited to add....... that was deep huh? I think its time to quit for the day. lol

 

[Allan]

the majority of people who who state they are free-Willers do not hold to the Calvinistic view of what free-will implies.

It is not about (from our view) us making amoral choices or to be able to choose what ever we want, whenever we want, (self soveriegnity) but are responsible to the choices that God has given to us with regard to obedience or disobedience to truth revealed. We believe God has the VERY RIGHT to step into to a persons decision making process to directly influence at ANYTIME He so chooses (and even does so), HOWEVER we beleive that God has given us or declared that 'WE' are to choose (those choices God has allowed to be before us) and held resposible to choices we make. ALL THE WHILE, God being indirectly or directly involved (as He pleases) to lead men unto righteousness but not MAKING men DO righteously.


Thank you James, that was the nicest thing anyone on BB has ever said about me.

 

[reformedbeliever]

the majority of people who who state they are free-Willers do not hold to the Calvinistic view of what free-will implies.

It is not about (from our view) us making amoral choices or to be able to choose what ever we want, whenever we want, (self soveriegnity) but are responsible to the choices that God has given to us with regard to obedience or disobedience to truth revealed. We believe God has the VERY RIGHT to step into to a persons decision making process to directly influence at ANYTIME He so chooses (and even does so), HOWEVER we beleive that God has given us or declared that 'WE' are to choose (those choices God has allowed to be before us) and held resposible to choices we make. ALL THE WHILE, God being indirectly or directly involved (as He pleases) to lead men unto righteousness but not MAKING men DO righteously.


Thank you James, that was the nicest thing anyone on BB has ever said about me.

We calvinist would agree with all you said Alan.

 

[reformedbeliever]

the majority of people who who state they are free-Willers do not hold to the Calvinistic view of what free-will implies.

It is not about (from our view) us making amoral choices or to be able to choose what ever we want, whenever we want, (self soveriegnity) but are responsible to the choices that God has given to us with regard to obedience or disobedience to truth revealed. We believe God has the VERY RIGHT to step into to a persons decision making process to directly influence at ANYTIME He so chooses (and even does so), HOWEVER we beleive that God has given us or declared that 'WE' are to choose (those choices God has allowed to be before us) and held resposible to choices we make. ALL THE WHILE, God being indirectly or directly involved (as He pleases) to lead men unto righteousness but not MAKING men DO righteously.


Thank you James, that was the nicest thing anyone on BB has ever said about me.

Well..... hey Alan.... I like your green outfit and your sling. Was that as nice? :tongue3:

 

[Brother Bob]

Also Blammo, I have often thought this. With God everything is a done deal. He is still working in time as we experience this thing called time.... but He is also in time after time. In other words... He is present in the eternity that we will some day experience... but yet He is here with us now. Am I making sense? lol It is as if everything is finished... the parousia... the judgement ... all of it, as far as God is concerned. He is there. We, however, are still in this dimension known as time.

Sure you are making sense, now take it the other way to the beginning where God knows all things and apply it to who will believe and who will not.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Sure you are making sense, now take it the other way to the beginning where God knows all things and apply it to who will believe and who will not.

Well there is a big difference between prescience and God's knowing us. This has already been explained to you bob. If you didn't get it then.... I'm not sure you will now. In Psalms 139:16 All your days were written before there ever was one. To me this is saying that before there were days forseen... they were writen by God. Its like this. God made the movie. He does not know about the movie because He forsaw it... but because He made it. The way you put it is as if God has something to learn. He is all knowing bob. He is the ultimate cause. Man is not sovereign over God's choices of what we will do.

 

[Jarthur001]

Did anyone see where they closed 3 threads this morning in about 1-2 hours?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Did anyone see where they closed 3 threads this morning in about 1-2 hours?

Respectfully James... lets not go there. Maybe we can keep this thread open for good debate. We might learn something. I might anyway...... I have a lot to learn. :godisgood: