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Free moral agency and the providence of God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by reformedbeliever, Nov 4, 2006.

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  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Well I didn't know you were going there James.... but I guess the question is here anyway. I seriously would like some discussion on the topic. I am truly not out to prove our system of theology. I really do not like being called a calvinist, but calvin was a great theologian..... much greater than any of those who attack him ever will be. I'd rather be called a Christian who is in search of the truth. I do believe we are called upon by God to make choices, and we are responsible for those choices. If we act according to our nature, God does not have to direct us to make choices that are inconsistent with His perfect will. We all fall short of His glory, simply by being what we are... less than perfect. I thank God for sending Jesus to make us right with God. We would all be lost if not for that. I truly enjoy theodicy, and trying to come to as best a biblical understanding that I possibly can. I enjoy debate, until it becomes personal, or when people put others down. Then I become defensive.
    It was not until I came to the understanding of the sovereignty of God in all things, including salvation, that I was truly regenerate. It was then that the old nature was put to death and a new nature was born. Before that, I believed in the free will of man, and depended on that will.... and knew I could not be saved. I knew there was nothing in me that would ever come close to knowing God, in a saving way. I wanted to know HIm for selfish reasons. It was not until I learned that He chose me before I existed, and sent His Son to die for me... not because of anything I had done (thank God), but by His sovereign choice and grace. I then knew I could be saved... and my heart broke for Jesus... and what He did for me. I am so sorry that He died for me just like I was. I'll never be the same. Thank you Jesus.
     
    #21 reformedbeliever, Nov 5, 2006
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    You asked..

    I think so. Yes it limits His soveriengty in this view. Mans will is the determining factor in the freewill view. God is determining or man is determining the out come of all things. If your will is to jump, God cannot do anything about it. YOU not God is the determining factor. If God stops you, God stops freewill. You have freewill...or you do not. God is in control...or man.

    which one?
     
    #22 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    If you have not already, read pink "THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD". He does a good job on fitting it all together.

    CHAPTERS...
    1. God's Sovereignty Defined
    2. The Sovereignty of God in Creation
    3. The Sovereignty of God in Administration
    4. The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
    5. The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation
    6. The Sovereignty of God in Operation
    7. God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
    8. God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility <<<<<I think this is what your asking
    9. God's Sovereignty and Prayer
    10. Our Attitude towards God's Sovereignty
    11. Difficulties and Objections
    12. The Value of this Doctrine
    Conclusion
    Appendix 1. The Will of God
    Appendix 2. The Case of Adam
    Appendix 3. The Meaning of "KOSMOS" in John 3:16
    Appendix 4. 1 John 2.2
     
    #23 Jarthur001, Nov 6, 2006
  4. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard its a good read. I've actually read very little of the reformed literature. I hope to be able to do that once I have the time for recreational reading. I'm finished for a while after this semester... I've reached a goal by God's grace. Most all of my reformed beliefs have come about by simply reading scripture. I have of course had my text books from Oklahoma Baptist University. We are historically calvinistic Baptist.
     
    #24 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  5. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Again, as usual, you have taken it to an extreme.

    If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

    If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

    If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?

    If I don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, will God save me?
     
    #25 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  6. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Who put the factors in place that would make you decide to jump off the bridge in the first place? Were you jumping to save someone else or to commit suicide? Lots of factors to consider. I belive that God in His providence causes the factors to come into place, so that we will always choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. What is the first cause?
     
    #26 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  7. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Does it matter why a person has decided to jump off the bridge? The point is, the person made a decision. You seem to be saying God is the cause of all events. I believe God is the Creator of all things, but much of what happens, though not outside of His control, He allows it to happen.

    1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
     
    #27 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    OK

    You only look at man. In the case if God stopped your will. God is the determining factor of you not jumping.

    Now...Can God stop you or is He bound to your will? If God can stop you, and does not it is God that is the determining factor of your jump. Does God have the power or is He limited to what your will be done? If you say God gives man freewill and God will not step in and stop you because of freewill, then man will is the determining factor of your jump.

    How did you hear? Was God a factor in you hearing/understanding? Were you born and on day 3 think, man!! i want to be saved?

    1st...if God brought the good news to your door, it is God that was the determining factor.

    1a) Did Joe from iran, hear the gospel as you? Why not?

    2nd..If God gave you understanding of the gospel, then God was the determining factor.

    2a) Do all that hear the word understand their need to be saved? Why?

    no, but if God wants you saved, He will not stop tell you believe. He will keep after you, till one day you believe.
    ***************************

    Blammo, if you are smart, you do not read half of what I post, for it is ramble city USA. :) But.. please read this below and your see 1st hand the picture we are talking about, in the Word.

    You know the story of Joseph and his brothers. The brothers sold Joe as a slave. Right? I mean..this is what the Bible says....right? The brothers made the choice on their own. No one forced them to do it. it was their idea.

    Well...yes...and mainly no. Check out the passage below.

    Genesis 45

    1Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.

    2And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard.

    3And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence.

    4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.

    5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

    NOTE: This is not saying a good thing came from your bad deed. No...it is saying GOD did the sending. Joe knows the brothers thought they made the choice, but Joe is saying...look..don't worry...it was not you...it was God. read on...

    6For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.

    7And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

    8So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

    9Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:

    WOW...good stuff. huh??


    In Christ...James
     
    #28 Jarthur001, Nov 6, 2006
  9. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Satan is one of God's hardest working angels. He gets to do nothing without God's permission. I'm saying that God in His providence puts all the factors in place, whether by allowing men to have their way, or by allowing satan to have his way. God is still in control, and never acts contrary to His nature.
     
    #29 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  10. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
     
    #30 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Wonder why Satan had to be bound so he couldn't deceive the nations if God is in control of what Satan and his followers do?
     
    #31 Brother Bob, Nov 6, 2006
  12. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    I agree that men and Satan can do nothing according to their own will unless God allows it. I don't believe that God allowing something makes Him the cause of it.
     
    #32 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  13. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    So if you see a little child in the street with cars approaching, and do nothing about it... the little child gets run over... you didn't cause it?
     
    #33 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    What if he got run over too? No where near sames a God allowing something to happen.
     
    #34 Brother Bob, Nov 6, 2006
  15. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    That is the chance I'd have to take bro bob. I could never allow a child to be run over. I'm sure Blamo couldn't either. It was an unfair analogy. I believe God is the first cause of all things... without being sinful or the cause of sin. Its kinda like this. My automobile was manufactured by men... but God provided the material. Sin is manufactured by men.... but God provides the material. The auto came into existence because God foreknew it. Sin also has to come into existence because God forknows it. Remember, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
     
    #35 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Have no problem with that. I just think God lets Satan roam the earth seeking whom he may devour so Satan must have power to devour.
     
    #36 Brother Bob, Nov 6, 2006
  17. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    No, in your scenario, I allowed it. That is what I am talking about. (allow)

    In order to cause it, I would put the little child in the street, super-glue his feet to the pavement, put a blindfold on some fool, and tell him to drive down that street. (cause)
     
    #37 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  18. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    I agree with what you said here right up to the point of God's foreknowledge being the cause. In your theology: Do you believe that God wrote a script in His mind, then created, and is busy this very moment making it happen exactly as He wrote it? (Every minute detail??????)

    I agree that God uses people and events to accomplish His purpose, but do you actually believe that has to be everything, everyone, and all of the time?

    What about that time I stepped in gum? What was that all about? :laugh:
     
    #38 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I do not believe a leaf flutters in the breeze without God sending the breeze and causing it. I beleive God is intimately involved in all His creation.... and it does not use up one bit of His strength to do it. Not a hair falls from your head or a sparrow from the sky, unless God has decreed it. Do you think God's memory is used up like a computer? Do you think He has limited resources? I don't. I have comfort in knowing that all that happens in in His control. Do you think Stephen was stoned to death without God's decreeing it? Do you think the result of Stephen's death (scattering of the church and the spread of the Gospel) was without God's decree? I don't. I'm open to learn however. I've enjoyed the debate.
     
    #39 reformedbeliever, Nov 6, 2006
  20. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    I am open to learn as well.

    It seems that you are combining two things that are seperated in scripture. (God's foreknowledge, and His determinate counsel)

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    This verse speaks of three important things.
    - Jesus Christ being taken, tried, and crucified, was an unchangeable event. (part of God's fixed plan)
    - God knew this before it happened.
    - The Jews decided to do it, did it, and were guilty of it.
     
    #40 Blammo, Nov 6, 2006
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