Free moral agency and the providence of God

[reformedbeliever]

Well I didn't know you were going there James.... but I guess the question is here anyway. I seriously would like some discussion on the topic. I am truly not out to prove our system of theology. I really do not like being called a calvinist, but calvin was a great theologian..... much greater than any of those who attack him ever will be. I'd rather be called a Christian who is in search of the truth. I do believe we are called upon by God to make choices, and we are responsible for those choices. If we act according to our nature, God does not have to direct us to make choices that are inconsistent with His perfect will. We all fall short of His glory, simply by being what we are... less than perfect. I thank God for sending Jesus to make us right with God. We would all be lost if not for that. I truly enjoy theodicy, and trying to come to as best a biblical understanding that I possibly can. I enjoy debate, until it becomes personal, or when people put others down. Then I become defensive.
It was not until I came to the understanding of the sovereignty of God in all things, including salvation, that I was truly regenerate. It was then that the old nature was put to death and a new nature was born. Before that, I believed in the free will of man, and depended on that will.... and knew I could not be saved. I knew there was nothing in me that would ever come close to knowing God, in a saving way. I wanted to know HIm for selfish reasons. It was not until I learned that He chose me before I existed, and sent His Son to die for me... not because of anything I had done (thank God), but by His sovereign choice and grace. I then knew I could be saved... and my heart broke for Jesus... and what He did for me. I am so sorry that He died for me just like I was. I'll never be the same. Thank you Jesus.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are taking things to the extreme. (again... as usual)

If I made a decision to jump of a bridge, yes, I can make that decision all by myself. God did not have to make me decide to jump off the bridge, and He does not have to change my mind to stop me. God can stop me. God can change my mind. God can let me jump off the bridge. God can do what ever He wants to do. I have still made the decision. God allows me to do that. But glory be to God, when I make a good decision, it is because of Him, when I make a bad decision, it is because of me.

You asked..

If you knew exactly what I was going to do tomorrow, would you need to make me do it? In order to know what I was going to do tomorrow, would you have to be the cause of it? It's hard to say, isn't it? You are not God. You don't have any idea what it means to know the beginning to the end.

What if God wanted man to think, feel, and choose for himself. Is that not possible? Does that take away from His soveriengty? I think not.

I think so. Yes it limits His soveriengty in this view. Mans will is the determining factor in the freewill view. God is determining or man is determining the out come of all things. If your will is to jump, God cannot do anything about it. YOU not God is the determining factor. If God stops you, God stops freewill. You have freewill...or you do not. God is in control...or man.

which one?

 

[Jarthur001]

Well I didn't know you were going there James.... but I guess the question is here anyway. I seriously would like some discussion on the topic. I am truly not out to prove our system of theology. I really do not like being called a calvinist, but calvin was a great theologian..... much greater than any of those who attack him ever will be. I'd rather be called a Christian who is in search of the truth. I do believe we are called upon by God to make choices, and we are responsible for those choices. If we act according to our nature, God does not have to direct us to make choices that are inconsistent with His perfect will. We all fall short of His glory, simply by being what we are... less than perfect. I thank God for sending Jesus to make us right with God. We would all be lost if not for that. I truly enjoy theodicy, and trying to come to as best a biblical understanding that I possibly can. I enjoy debate, until it becomes personal, or when people put others down. Then I become defensive.
It was not until I came to the understanding of the sovereignty of God in all things, including salvation, that I was truly regenerate. It was then that the old nature was put to death and a new nature was born. Before that, I believed in the free will of man, and depended on that will.... and knew I could not be saved. I knew there was nothing in me that would ever come close to knowing God, in a saving way. I wanted to know HIm for selfish reasons. It was not until I learned that He chose me before I existed, and sent His Son to die for me... not because of anything I had done (thank God), but by His sovereign choice and grace. I then knew I could be saved... and my heart broke for Jesus... and what He did for me. I am so sorry that He died for me just like I was. I'll never be the same. Thank you Jesus.

If you have not already, read pink "THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD". He does a good job on fitting it all together.

CHAPTERS...
1. God's Sovereignty Defined
2. The Sovereignty of God in Creation
3. The Sovereignty of God in Administration
4. The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
5. The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation
6. The Sovereignty of God in Operation
7. God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
8. God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility <<<<<I think this is what your asking
9. God's Sovereignty and Prayer
10. Our Attitude towards God's Sovereignty
11. Difficulties and Objections
12. The Value of this Doctrine
Conclusion
Appendix 1. The Will of God
Appendix 2. The Case of Adam
Appendix 3. The Meaning of "KOSMOS" in John 3:16
Appendix 4. 1 John 2.2

 

[reformedbeliever]

If you have not already, read pink "THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD". He does a good job on fitting it all together.

CHAPTERS...
1. God's Sovereignty Defined
2. The Sovereignty of God in Creation
3. The Sovereignty of God in Administration
4. The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
5. The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation
6. The Sovereignty of God in Operation
7. God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
8. God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility <<<<<I think this is what your asking
9. God's Sovereignty and Prayer
10. Our Attitude towards God's Sovereignty
11. Difficulties and Objections
12. The Value of this Doctrine
Conclusion
Appendix 1. The Will of God
Appendix 2. The Case of Adam
Appendix 3. The Meaning of "KOSMOS" in John 3:16
Appendix 4. 1 John 2.2

Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard its a good read. I've actually read very little of the reformed literature. I hope to be able to do that once I have the time for recreational reading. I'm finished for a while after this semester... I've reached a goal by God's grace. Most all of my reformed beliefs have come about by simply reading scripture. I have of course had my text books from Oklahoma Baptist University. We are historically calvinistic Baptist.

 

[Blammo]

Yes it limits His soveriengty in this view. Mans will is the determining factor in the freewill view. God is determining or man is determining the out come of all things. If your will is to jump, God cannot do anything about it. YOU not God is the determining factor. If God stops you, God stops freewill. You have freewill...or you do not. God is in control...or man.

which one?

Again, as usual, you have taken it to an extreme.

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?

If I don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, will God save me?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Again, as usual, you have taken it to an extreme.

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?

If I don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, will God save me?

Who put the factors in place that would make you decide to jump off the bridge in the first place? Were you jumping to save someone else or to commit suicide? Lots of factors to consider. I belive that God in His providence causes the factors to come into place, so that we will always choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. What is the first cause?

 

[Blammo]

Who put the factors in place that would make you decide to jump off the bridge in the first place? Were you jumping to save someone else or to commit suicide? Lots of factors to consider. I belive that God in His providence causes the factors to come into place, so that we will always choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. What is the first cause?

Does it matter why a person has decided to jump off the bridge? The point is, the person made a decision. You seem to be saying God is the cause of all events. I believe God is the Creator of all things, but much of what happens, though not outside of His control, He allows it to happen.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Jarthur001]

Again, as usual, you have taken it to an extreme.

OK

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

You only look at man. In the case if God stopped your will. God is the determining factor of you not jumping.

If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?

Now...Can God stop you or is He bound to your will? If God can stop you, and does not it is God that is the determining factor of your jump. Does God have the power or is He limited to what your will be done? If you say God gives man freewill and God will not step in and stop you because of freewill, then man will is the determining factor of your jump.

If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?

How did you hear? Was God a factor in you hearing/understanding? Were you born and on day 3 think, man!! i want to be saved?

1st...if God brought the good news to your door, it is God that was the determining factor.

1a) Did Joe from iran, hear the gospel as you? Why not?

2nd..If God gave you understanding of the gospel, then God was the determining factor.

2a) Do all that hear the word understand their need to be saved? Why?

If I don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, will God save me?

no, but if God wants you saved, He will not stop tell you believe. He will keep after you, till one day you believe.
***************************

Blammo, if you are smart, you do not read half of what I post, for it is ramble city USA. But.. please read this below and your see 1st hand the picture we are talking about, in the Word.

You know the story of Joseph and his brothers. The brothers sold Joe as a slave. Right? I mean..this is what the Bible says....right? The brothers made the choice on their own. No one forced them to do it. it was their idea.

Well...yes...and mainly no. Check out the passage below.

Genesis 45

1Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.

2And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard.

3And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence.

4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.

5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

NOTE: This is not saying a good thing came from your bad deed. No...it is saying GOD did the sending. Joe knows the brothers thought they made the choice, but Joe is saying...look..don't worry...it was not you...it was God. read on...

6For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.

7And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

8So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

9Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:

WOW...good stuff. huh??


In Christ...James

 

[reformedbeliever]

Does it matter why a person has decided to jump off the bridge? The point is, the person made a decision. You seem to be saying God is the cause of all events. I believe God is the Creator of all things, but much of what happens, though not outside of His control, He allows it to happen.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Satan is one of God's hardest working angels. He gets to do nothing without God's permission. I'm saying that God in His providence puts all the factors in place, whether by allowing men to have their way, or by allowing satan to have his way. God is still in control, and never acts contrary to His nature.

 

[Blammo]

Quote:
Again, as usual, you have taken it to an extreme.
OK


Quote:
If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God stops me (by whatever means God chooses to stop me), who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
You only look at man. In the case if God stopped your will. God is the determining factor of you not jumping. (God did not stop my will, He stopped the result of my will. I am still guilty of deciding to jump, God stopping my action did not stop or change my will.)


Quote:
If I decide to jump off a bridge, and God does not stop me, who made the decision to jump off the bridge?
Now...Can God stop you or is He bound to your will? If God can stop you, and does not it is God that is the determining factor of your jump. Does God have the power or is He limited to what your will be done? If you say God gives man freewill and God will not step in and stop you because of freewill, then man will is the determining factor of your jump. (God CAN stop me, he is not bound by my will. If God does not stop me, he ALLOWED my will to be done. If God does stop me, He has stopped my action, though my will may not have changed.)

Quote:
If I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God saves me, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who saved me?
How did you hear? Was God a factor in you hearing/understanding? Were you born and on day 3 think, man!! i want to be saved?

1st...if God brought the good news to your door, it is God that was the determining factor.

1a) Did Joe from iran, hear the gospel as you? Why not?

2nd..If God gave you understanding of the gospel, then God was the determining factor.

2a) Do all that hear the word understand their need to be saved? Why?(Everything that brought about my salvation is from God. Left to myself, I would have never sought Him. I came to know Christ through the preaching of the word, without having heard it, I would have had nothing to believe in. If Joe from Iran has not heard the gospel yet, it is because God's command to preach the gospel to every creature has not been obeyed.)


Quote:
If I don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, will God save me?
no, but if God wants you saved, He will not stop tell you believe. He will keep after you, till one day you believe.
***************************

Blammo, if you are smart, you do not read half of what I post, for it is ramble city USA. But.. please read this below and your see 1st hand the picture we are talking about, in the Word.

You know the story of Joseph and his brothers. The brothers sold Joe as a slave. Right? I mean..this is what the Bible says....right? The brothers made the choice on their own. No one forced them to do it. it was their idea.

Well...yes...and mainly no. Check out the passage below.

Genesis 45

1Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.

2And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard.

3And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence.

4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.

5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

NOTE: This is not saying a good thing came from your bad deed. No...it is saying GOD did the sending. Joe knows the brothers thought they made the choice, but Joe is saying...look..don't worry...it was not you...it was God. read on...

6For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.

7And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

8So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

9Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:

WOW...good stuff. huh?? (Yes, God is awesome. Nothing is impossible for God. He can take a bad situation, brought about by the will of bad people, and turn it into something that ends well, and in accordance to His will.)

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wonder why Satan had to be bound so he couldn't deceive the nations if God is in control of what Satan and his followers do?

 

[Blammo]

Satan is one of God's hardest working angels. He gets to do nothing without God's permission. I'm saying that God in His providence puts all the factors in place, whether by allowing men to have their way, or by allowing satan to have his way. God is still in control, and never acts contrary to His nature.

I agree that men and Satan can do nothing according to their own will unless God allows it. I don't believe that God allowing something makes Him the cause of it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree that men and Satan can do nothing according to their own will unless God allows it. I don't believe that God allowing something makes Him the cause of it.

So if you see a little child in the street with cars approaching, and do nothing about it... the little child gets run over... you didn't cause it?

 

[Brother Bob]

What if he got run over too? No where near sames a God allowing something to happen.

 

[reformedbeliever]

What if he got run over too? No where near sames a God allowing something to happen.

That is the chance I'd have to take bro bob. I could never allow a child to be run over. I'm sure Blamo couldn't either. It was an unfair analogy. I believe God is the first cause of all things... without being sinful or the cause of sin. Its kinda like this. My automobile was manufactured by men... but God provided the material. Sin is manufactured by men.... but God provides the material. The auto came into existence because God foreknew it. Sin also has to come into existence because God forknows it. Remember, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[Brother Bob]

Have no problem with that. I just think God lets Satan roam the earth seeking whom he may devour so Satan must have power to devour.

 

[Blammo]

So if you see a little child in the street with cars approaching, and do nothing about it... the little child gets run over... you didn't cause it?

No, in your scenario, I allowed it. That is what I am talking about. (allow)

In order to cause it, I would put the little child in the street, super-glue his feet to the pavement, put a blindfold on some fool, and tell him to drive down that street. (cause)

 

[Blammo]

That is the chance I'd have to take bro bob. I could never allow a child to be run over. I'm sure Blamo couldn't either. It was an unfair analogy. I believe God is the first cause of all things... without being sinful or the cause of sin. Its kinda like this. My automobile was manufactured by men... but God provided the material. Sin is manufactured by men.... but God provides the material. The auto came into existence because God foreknew it. Sin also has to come into existence because God forknows it. Remember, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

I agree with what you said here right up to the point of God's foreknowledge being the cause. In your theology: Do you believe that God wrote a script in His mind, then created, and is busy this very moment making it happen exactly as He wrote it? (Every minute detail??????)

I agree that God uses people and events to accomplish His purpose, but do you actually believe that has to be everything, everyone, and all of the time?

What about that time I stepped in gum? What was that all about? :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree with what you said here right up to the point of God's foreknowledge being the cause. In your theology: Do you believe that God wrote a script in His mind, then created, and is busy this very moment making it happen exactly as He wrote it? (Every minute detail??????)

I agree that God uses people and events to accomplish His purpose, but do you actually believe that has to be everything, everyone, and all of the time?

What about that time I stepped in gum? What was that all about? :laugh:

I do not believe a leaf flutters in the breeze without God sending the breeze and causing it. I beleive God is intimately involved in all His creation.... and it does not use up one bit of His strength to do it. Not a hair falls from your head or a sparrow from the sky, unless God has decreed it. Do you think God's memory is used up like a computer? Do you think He has limited resources? I don't. I have comfort in knowing that all that happens in in His control. Do you think Stephen was stoned to death without God's decreeing it? Do you think the result of Stephen's death (scattering of the church and the spread of the Gospel) was without God's decree? I don't. I'm open to learn however. I've enjoyed the debate.

 

[Blammo]

I do not believe a leaf flutters in the breeze without God sending the breeze and causing it. I beleive God is intimately involved in all His creation.... and it does not use up one bit of His strength to do it. Not a hair falls from your head or a sparrow from the sky, unless God has decreed it. Do you think God's memory is used up like a computer? Do you think He has limited resources? I don't. I have comfort in knowing that all that happens in in His control. Do you think Stephen was stoned to death without God's decreeing it? Do you think the result of Stephen's death (scattering of the church and the spread of the Gospel) was without God's decree? I don't. I'm open to learn however. I've enjoyed the debate.

I am open to learn as well.

It seems that you are combining two things that are seperated in scripture. (God's foreknowledge, and His determinate counsel)

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This verse speaks of three important things.
- Jesus Christ being taken, tried, and crucified, was an unchangeable event. (part of God's fixed plan)
- God knew this before it happened.
- The Jews decided to do it, did it, and were guilty of it.