Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

[TCassidy]

If man was truly bound strictly to the lost nature, completely depraved then he would never be able to to a thing but live according to all that is against God. Yet we see lost people who give to the poor, have compassion on those in need, and serve others. That alone refutes your claim.

It's not my claim. Take it up with the Author.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's not my claim. Take it up with the Author.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Those verses do not suggest total depravity

 

[TCassidy]

Those verses do not suggest total depravity

Of course they do, unless you are claiming some part of your body, soul, or spirit escaped the consequences of the fall and remained in utter sinless perfection and merits salvation.

You see, the problem is you refuse to accept what total depravity really means and you invent the notion it means "they can never do anything positive."

 

[Revmitchell]

Of course they do, unless you are claiming some part of your body, soul, or spirit escaped the consequences of the fall and remained in utter sinless perfection and merits salvation.

You see, the problem is you refuse to accept what total depravity really means and you invent the notion it means "they can never do anything positive."

Great so we agree man can do things that are positive?

 

[TCassidy]

Great so we agree man can do things that are positive?

Of course he can. Lost people do positive things every day. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the bible doctrine of total depravity.

 

[Revmitchell]

Of course he can. Lost people do positive things every day. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the bible doctrine of total depravity.

So you said "Of course they do, unless you are claiming some part of your body, soul, or spirit escaped the consequences of the fall and remained in utter sinless perfection and merits salvation"

Here you set up black and white (fallacy) scenario as if there is no other options available. I reject that.

If man can do good (positive) toward man then the same nature that allows him to do good toward man would also allow him to see and hear the gospel (which holds its own power) and respond to it. Paul said faith (belief) comes by the gospel (Romans 10:17) and the gospel has its own power (Romans 1:16). If man can do things that are the exact things God tells us as Christians to do (please do not down play this by calling them positive, your attempt here is obvious) then why should we then believe that man cannot also respond to the gospel which we know has its own power to salvation. That position is contradictory.

 

[TCassidy]

I reject that.

Of course you do! And that is the point. You ignore the meaning of "total depravity" and make up a straw man that fits your false narrative.

If man can do good (positive) toward man then the same nature that allows him to do good toward man would also allow him to see and hear the gospel (which holds its own power) and respond to it.

That nature is fallen, remember? An enemy of God. One who rejects the Gospel. And the Christ of the Gospel.

Remember those pesky bible verses I posted? You are not arguing against me, you are arguing against the clear meaning and intent of those verses.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox nearly 400 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18

2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5

3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11

4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

Here is the same (WCF) in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

I believe in free-but-weak will, like Augustine.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ok the heart is deceitful. I have never argued against that. Can a deceitful or wicked heart respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ? Does that gospel have power to salvation above that deceit? Of course it does.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.

That is right, no one is without sin. However this does not say that man cannot respond to the gospel without first being regenerated
.

Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.

That is correct. God sends his preacher with the power of the gospel. God seeks after man. Man hears the gospel and believes
.

Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Again no one has their own righteousness. Man needs the righteousness of Christ which is gained when he believes the gospel which is delievered by God when He sends His preacher with the power of the Gospel.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

And yet still none of those verses say that man cannot respond to God all the while you ignore the verses that say he can.

 

[TCassidy]

Can a deceitful or wicked heart respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ?

No. The wicked reject God. That is why they are wicked.

Does that gospel have power to salvation above that deceit? Of course it does.

Can God save anyone? Yes. Will he save everyone? No.

That is right, no one is without sin. However this does not say that man cannot respond to the gospel without first being regenerated

It says that man has nothing holy to offer God.

God seeks after man.

Yes. We call that "regeneration."

Man needs the righteousness of Christ which is gained when he believes the gospel which is delievered by God when He sends His preacher with the power of the Gospel.

Yes. The Regenerating Grace of God which enables us to believe, repent, and obey. All things it is impossible for the unregenerate man to do.

And yet still none of those verses say that man cannot respond to God all the while you ignore the verses that say he can.

No verse says man can come to God on his own. All say "no, not one." All say the unregenerate are "at enmity" with God.

Every time to venture into this discussion you ask the same question that have already been answered a dozen time. But you ignore the answers and ask again and again and again because you don't like the answer.

You know what this is, don't you? "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome."

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes. We call that "regeneration."

That is what you call it. Traditionalists, like myself, call it the preaching of the gospel. Oh, and of course we get that from scripture as I have shown.

 

[TCassidy]

Traditionalists, like myself, call it the preaching of the gospel.

The preaching of the Gospel is the preaching of the Gospel. But the drawing of the Father, the faith, repentance, and obedience, are the result of the new life of faith, repentance, and obedience given in regeneration.

Oh, and the Traditional Baptists were the Particular Baptists. The General Baptists came along later.

 

[prophecy70]

If man was truly bound strictly to the lost nature, completely depraved then he would never be able to to a thing but live according to all that is against God. Yet we see lost people who give to the poor, have compassion on those in need, and serve others. That alone refutes your claim.

As someone who is new to the 5 points, this argument against total depravity even makes no sense to me.
So in order to be total deprived everyone would have to act like Jeffery Dahmer?
Is not some moral law written on the hearts of even the lost?

Salvation is another Issue.

 

[JonShaff]

As someone who is new to the 5 points, this argument against total depravity even makes no sense to me.
So in order to be total deprived everyone would have to act like Jeffery Dahmer?
Is not some moral law written on the hearts of even the lost?

Salvation is another Issue.

How is the law written on the hearts of the lost in Calvinistic theology? Paul says "The Law is Spiritual". Calvinism teaches the depraved man cannot discern anything spiritual.

 

[1689Dave]

Why do bad people do good? Paul answers by telling us the reason for the Ten Commandments.


“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:8–10) (KJV 1900)

God did not need to tell Abraham and those like him not to steal. They had circumcised hearts, and did not want to steal. They were genuinely good because of the new heart God gave them.


But God used the Ten Commandments to harness the greed and wickedness of the unregenerate Jew, turning greed into good works. He would bless them materially for obedience, and curse them, confiscating their possessions for disobedience. This all according to the laws of sowing and reaping that continue in civil law today.


Al Capone could be good if it served his purposes, but would be bad if it served his purposes better.


So today, bad people do good for the wrong reasons. Are they good? Not unless Christ occupies their hearts and their motives pure. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[FollowTheWay]

It's not my claim. Take it up with the Author.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

You need to read on in ROM 3 to understand our current situation under grace:

[Rom 3:19-24 KJV] 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

You're referring to man's situation under the law. BUT NOW, we are under grace provided to us by the Lord Jesus Christ. The root question is whether man can accept grace without having the Holy Spirit first reach out to him. I tend to think not but am not necessarily a strong believer in total depravity. I used to be strongly anti-Calvinist primarily due to the fact that I do not accept partial atonement. Now I believe that both the Calvinist and free will interpretations are supported by the Bible. This is a mystery to man which hangs on the difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

 

[atpollard]

How is the law written on the hearts of the lost in Calvinistic theology? Paul says "The Law is Spiritual". Calvinism teaches the depraved man cannot discern anything spiritual.

He said “Is not some MORAL LAW written on the hearts of even the lost?”

Everyone is not a sociopath or a psychopath. Most people (even god-haters) know that drowning babies is wrong and they don’t do it. That hardly qualifies as ‘goodness’ by God’s standards.

Total Depravity means every part of the human being (body, mind and soul) is corrupted by the fall. It does not mean that every human being is as evil as they can be (sociopath or psychopath).

 

[prophecy70]

He said “Is not some MORAL LAW written on the hearts of even the lost?”

Everyone is not a sociopath or a psychopath. Most people (even god-haters) know that drowning babies is wrong and they don’t do it. That hardly qualifies as ‘goodness’ by God’s standards.

Total Depravity means every part of the human being (body, mind and soul) is corrupted by the fall. It does not mean that every human being is as evil as they can be (sociopath or psychopath).

Exactly, people can have "morals" even if they hate God, it does not mean they do it for the right reasons or that God is pleased with them. People on here act like Calvinism teaches you're either Regenerated or a Psycho. Which is NOT the case.

 

[JonShaff]

He said “Is not some MORAL LAW written on the hearts of even the lost?”

Everyone is not a sociopath or a psychopath. Most people (even god-haters) know that drowning babies is wrong and they don’t do it. That hardly qualifies as ‘goodness’ by God’s standards.

Total Depravity means every part of the human being (body, mind and soul) is corrupted by the fall. It does not mean that every human being is as evil as they can be (sociopath or psychopath).

Right, every part is corrupted by the fall...but the Gospel has the power to pierce the darkness.

And the bible doesn't say gentiles have a moral law on their hearts. It says that we have laws and we even break the laws we make for ourselves.
Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[TCassidy]

You need to read on in ROM 3 to understand our current situation under grace:

Done so. Many, many, many times.

You're referring to man's situation under the law. BUT NOW, we are under grace provided to us by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, we know.

The root question is whether man can accept grace without having the Holy Spirit first reach out to him.

Agreed.

I tend to think not but am not necessarily a strong believer in total depravity.

Either body, soul, and spirit were affected by the fall or they were not. What part of the body, soul, or spirit avoided the effects of the fall and remained in perfect holiness and merited salvation?

I used to be strongly anti-Calvinist primarily due to the fact that I do not accept partial atonement.

What is "partial atonement?"

Now I believe that both the Calvinist and free will interpretations are supported by the Bible.

How can a lost person's will not be corrupted by the fall? Is Romans 8:2 wrong?