Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

[Yeshua1]

The last sentence you quoted is the point.

Can you see anything here aspiring towards holiness? Or here? “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!” (Galatians 5:19–21) (NET)

No, I don't see anything aspiring toward holiness there. I also don't see a statement, "We can will only according to our nature." I see a warning that if we choose to sin, we will not inherit the kingdom of God. Why warn us if we have zero capacity to resist temptation?

What was the point of the Adam and Eve story? Why did God create Eve last, after all the other animals? Did God create a male and female of every other species but then overlook to create a female human? Or was the whole point to get Adam to realize that he is not like all the other animals?

How do humans differ from animals? We can make moral choices. It doesn't mean we can make moral choices perfectly without help from above or that we can understand how to do or desire to do so to the point that would impress God, who is perfect.

It also doesn't make us animals before the Holy Spirit acts on us and angels after the Holy Spirit acts on us.[/QUOTE]
We can indeed decide to do right/wrong things, but the sinner apart from the work of the Holy Spiriting on them cannot freely decide to live for Jesus, and to get saved by Him, as our sin natures want to stay away from doing just that.
Paul is not stating that if we choose to now live godly we can inherit the Kingdom, its that we can and do that once saved by grace of God, as he is contrasting the works of the sinful flesh and the redeemed person now in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks, how do you explain sovereignty and free will?

The first one exists, and the second one does not!

 

[glad4mercy]

It is the new nature that produces the love we walk in as slaves of Christ.

And because of the New Nature we have been made free from sin's dominion. Freedom is not the ability to sin if you want to. Real freedom is the ability NOT to sin. Sin is slavery. Holiness is Liberty. If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.

Sin is a tyrant. The fact that God cannot sin does not negate His freedom. It has no place in Him.

It's like saying "you're not free unless you can slap your wife around". That desire is not in me, not even an inkling. It has no place in me. Now if I find myself slapping my wife, or if I have even the potential, does that make me more free? Not at all. It makes me less free

God is free, perfect in Holiness, because sin has no place in Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

And because of the New Nature we have been made free from sin's dominion..

Wait, this new nature leads us to make the right decision to come to Christ, have I understood this correcty?

 

[glad4mercy]

Wait, this new nature leads us to make the right decision to come to Christ, have I understood this correcty?

Not what I said. Believing we come to Christ, receiving new nature simultaneous to our believing. Because we have died to sin and risen with Christ ( new position) and because we have been set free from the Law of sin and death THROUGH the Law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and because we are born of God and His Seed remains in us, sin has dominion over us NO MORE.

 

[glad4mercy]

And because of the New Nature we have been made free from sin's dominion. Freedom is not the ability to sin if you want to. Real freedom is the ability NOT to sin. Sin is slavery. Holiness is Liberty. If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.

Sin is a tyrant. The fact that God cannot sin does not negate His freedom. It has no place in Him.

It's like saying "you're not free unless you can slap your wife around". That desire is not in me, not even an inkling. It has no place in me. Now if I find myself slapping my wife, or if I have even the potential, does that make me more free? Not at all. It makes me less free

God is free, perfect in Holiness, because sin has no place in Him.

David, without controversy let us simply say that God is Autonomous and leave it at that.

 

[glad4mercy]

I find these arguments over the definition of "free will" to be hilarious.

1st guy: "The bible teaches that free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "No! You are a heretic! The bible teaches that free will is green!"

1st guy: "You apostate! Free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "You Satanist! Free will is green!"

Hey guys. You are arguing over something that does not exist!

The lost man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death and is, therefore, not free.

The saved man's will is now bound to the law of New Life in Christ and is, therefore, not free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.

Col 4:7 All my affairs will be made known to you by Tychicus, the beloved brother, faithful servant, and fellow bondservant in the Lord.

So you serve the Lord unwillingly? What a shame.

Just kidding. I think we both serve the Lord joyfully and lovingly and heartily. And a sinner serves sin joyfully and lovingly and heartily. And then some are like Romans 7, wanting to do right and unable.

The will wills what it wants to will. It is our heart (what we love), our minds ( what we seek), our desires, etc that determines that.

But Christians have been set free to love God. Being a slave to love is the best kind of freedom. That's why Jesus and all the apostles call it LIBERTY and FREEDOM.

love makes us both slaves (willing) and free.

 

[robycop3]

if God had wanted robots, He coulda easily made them, beings incapable of the slightest sin or disobedience. Instead, God made us with free will, as He wants beings who chooseta love Him of their own will and volition.

 

[1689Dave]

The first one exists, and the second one does not!

This is true, but if we look closely, the WCF and LBC solved it this way. In my own words:We choose what we want based on the reasons God places in our nature and path. That is, every choice has a reason behind it, and God controls the reason we wanted most to choose.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't. I don't compare something that is true, the Sovereignty of God, to something that does not exist, the free will of man.

This argument has all of the merits of the old question "Can God made a rock so big He can't lift it?"

My response to both questions is the same. "He is smart enough to know better."

Thanks. I agree with this. But I think the WCF and LBC show that we freely choose according to the reasons sent by God that we base our choices on. We want to choose what he wants us to choose. And in this way, we stop the mouths of those who call out "automaton" every time we talk predestination.

 

[TCassidy]

God made us with free will,

So, when the bible says the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death, you say the bible is wrong and the lost man is not in bondage, but is free to choose to go to heaven on his own merits?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks. I agree with this. But I think the WCF and LBC show that we freely choose according to the reasons sent by God that we base our choices on. We want to choose what he wants us to choose. And in this way, we stop the mouths of those who call out "automaton" every time we talk predestination.

We do not freely make our decisions though, as any of us can be and are affected in making decisions by our own sinful natures and wills!

 

[Yeshua1]

if God had wanted robots, He coulda easily made them, beings incapable of the slightest sin or disobedience. Instead, God made us with free will, as He wants beings who chooseta love Him of their own will and volition.

Except that sinners are enslaved by their sin natures, as jesus stated, and so freedom of the will is really Bondage to a sinful will!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks. I agree with this. But I think the WCF and LBC show that we freely choose according to the reasons sent by God that we base our choices on. We want to choose what he wants us to choose. And in this way, we stop the mouths of those who call out "automaton" every time we talk predestination.

If God does not choose to have us be saved, we cannot will ourselves to do that!

 

[1689Dave]

If God does not choose to have us be saved, we cannot will ourselves to do that!

This is true, but I think you are missing the point made by the extremely Calvinistic WCF & LBC. In the case of the wicked, the secondary causes sent by God that they freely choose to obey are all judgements for sin. Their evil nature being one of them. Consider how this verse plays out.

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” (Acts 2:23) (KJV 1900)

Every choice has a reason behind it. Think of how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh genuinely wanted to sin, but God hardened his heart giving him the desire.

 

[1689Dave]

We do not freely make our decisions though, as any of us can be and are affected in making decisions by our own sinful natures and wills!

If we do not freely choose to sin, genuinely wanting to sin, it is not sin. But God sends and controls the reasons we base our sinful choices on. Read the WCF & LBC chapter carefully trying to understand what they are saying.

Chapter 3 God's Eternal Decree:

1. God, from all eternity, did-by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

OPC. Westminster Confession with Modern English.

In essence, we choose according to the secondary causes God makes certain. Just as the goat follows the carrot dangling from a pole, pulling the wagon in the direction the kid would have it to go.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is true, but I think you are missing the point made by the extremely Calvinistic WCF & LBC. In the case of the wicked, the secondary causes sent by God that they freely choose to obey are all judgements for sin. Their evil nature being one of them. Consider how this verse plays out.

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” (Acts 2:23) (KJV 1900)

Every choice has a reason behind it. Think of how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh genuinely wanted to sin, but God hardened his heart giving him the desire.

The 2 Confessions are not Hyper Calvinistic though, as they both reflect Dort on this issue of free will and God being still sovereign.

 

[Benjamin]

if God had wanted robots, He coulda easily made them, beings incapable of the slightest sin or disobedience. Instead, God made us with free will, as He wants beings who chooseta love Him of their own will and volition.

Correct, and God did not re-create/re-design His creatures to not have free will after the fall as the conclusions of those with a Determinist' view would commonly imply needed to have happened to fit their soteriological misconceptions.

At the roots the typical problem with the Calvinist' view on divine sovereignty is in their definition which begs the question that it must be Divine Deterministic Sovereignty rather than Divine Providential Sovereignty over creatures designed with free will.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12 AM Pacific.

 

[TCassidy]

Correct, and God did not re-create/re-design His creatures to not have free will after the fall as the conclusions of those with a Determinist' view would commonly imply needed to have happened to fit their soteriological misconceptions.

So you deny that when Adam sinned he died? He did NOT become subject to the law of sin and death? Interesting.

At the roots the typical problem with the Calvinist' view on divine sovereignty is in their definition which begs the question that it must be Divine Deterministic Sovereignty rather than Divine Providential Sovereignty over creatures designed with free will.

Uh, did you just make that up? Every single person I know who believes in the Sovereignty of God in election/salvation believes God has a Decretal will and a Permissive will. What you are calling "deterministic" and "providential."