Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

[1689Dave]

Love becomes a slave/servant willingly

It is the new nature that produces the love we walk in as slaves of Christ.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

We can will only according to our nature. Sinners can only choose sin. Example, “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a person. For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person.”” (Matthew 15:18–20) (NET)

The last sentence you quoted is the point.

Can you see anything here aspiring towards holiness? Or here? “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!” (Galatians 5:19–21) (NET)[/QUOTE]

No, I don't see anything aspiring toward holiness there. I also don't see a statement, "We can will only according to our nature." I see a warning that if we choose to sin, we will not inherit the kingdom of God. Why warn us if we have zero capacity to resist temptation?

What was the point of the Adam and Eve story? Why did God create Eve last, after all the other animals? Did God create a male and female of every other species but then overlook to create a female human? Or was the whole point to get Adam to realize that he is not like all the other animals?

How do humans differ from animals? We can make moral choices. It doesn't mean we can make moral choices perfectly without help from above or that we can understand how to do or desire to do so to the point that would impress God, who is perfect.

It also doesn't make us animals before the Holy Spirit acts on us and angels after the Holy Spirit acts on us.

 

[1689Dave]

No, I don't see anything aspiring toward holiness there. I also don't see a statement, "We can will only according to our nature."

But, unless a person is born again, they only have the wicked flesh to draw from. They don't have the right tools, so to speak. It's like the phrase in Jaws. "You're gonna need a bigger boat".

 

[I Love An Atheist]

But, unless a person is born again, they only have the wicked flesh to draw from. They don't have the right tools, so to speak. It's like the phrase in Jaws. "You're gonna need a bigger boat".

 

[atpollard]

Deciding to have a baby vs. aborting a baby is a choice. In your theology having the baby is sin.

You are looking at the person and situation out of context. The baby was likely concieved out of wedlock. Under the Law of Moses, both the parents could be put to death for their sin. Was God's law evil or is fornication a sin? You are praising the mother for not murdering the baby to cover her fornication ... what a New Age Mother Teresa!

 

[Iconoclast]

Yep, great use of context there. Right up there with "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."

We might as well throw away the 10 commandments and other admonishments against sin since EVERY SINGLE THING we do without faith, i.e. sleep, is a sin.

If you do not have a grasp on biblical truth and principle it is not my fault.
You really do not want an answer do you?
When you sit in a church with a storyteller up front, rather than leadership that opens up the scripture you cannot grasp the principles of scripture when they are alluded to.
Perhaps seek answers from RM....he avoids all manner of the troubling scriptures and biblical principle that most learn about...then you get type in one liners about how those who actually employ the scriptures are rude...
When is the last time either of you actually posted scripture to engage a topic.
An interested reader would get carpel tunnel syndrome going through the archives before they found the remote hint of any such post.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

You are looking at the person and situation out of context. The baby was likely concieved out of wedlock. Under the Law of Moses, both the parents could be put to death for their sin. Was God's law evil or is fornication a sin? You are praising the mother for not murdering the baby to cover her fornication ... what a New Age Mother Teresa!

Was that the law of Moses? The Law of Moses was the Ten Commandments. That's like saying every federal and state law is the Constitution.

 

[InTheLight]

If you do not have a grasp on biblical truth and principle it is not my fault.

I see you're talking to the mirror again.

When you sit in a church with a storyteller up front, rather than leadership that opens up the scripture you cannot grasp the principles of scripture when they are alluded to.

Good thing I don't go to one of those types of churches. But since you're a mind reader--tell me, where do I attend?

Perhaps seek answers from RM....he avoids all manner of the troubling scriptures and biblical principle that most learn about...then you get type in one liners about how those who actually employ the scriptures are rude...

Like RM, I've had these arguments with Calvinists with scriptures many times. It's just not worth it to quote scriptures because:

* Calvinists say you're taking the verse out of context
* Calvinists say the verse was directed at someone else
* Calvinists say the word doesn't mean what it says in plain English
* Calvinists have their own meanings for words. Examples:

All: The elect
Draw all Men: Regenerate the Elect
Everyone: The elect
Faith: Something that the elect are zapped with after regeneration.
To Foreknow: To decree or to love, absolutely nothing to do with knowing before.
Four Point Calvinist: An Arminian
Kosmos: Greek word that means “elect”.
Pelagian: Name to call Arminians, extra points if they don’t know what it means.

When is the last time either of you actually posted scripture to engage a topic.

I did so a couple of days ago, I'd guess. Certainly not more than a week.

 

[InTheLight]

You are looking at the person and situation out of context. The baby was likely concieved out of wedlock. Under the Law of Moses, both the parents could be put to death for their sin. Was God's law evil or is fornication a sin? You are praising the mother for not murdering the baby to cover her fornication ... what a New Age Mother Teresa!

I see we've got another mind reader. Nowhere did I stipulate the marital status of the woman.

 

[atpollard]

I see we've got another mind reader. Nowhere did I stipulate the marital status of the woman.

I apologize, I thought it was a woman in the real world where greater than 90% of the abortions are performed for the convenience of the unwed mother.

 

[atpollard]

Was that the law of Moses? The Law of Moses was the Ten Commandments. That's like saying every federal and state law is the Constitution.

The Law of Moses was more than the Ten Commandments.

[Jos 8:31-32 NASB] 31 just as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the sons of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of uncut stones on which no man had wielded an iron tool; and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 He wrote there on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written, in the presence of the sons of Israel.
[2Ki 14:6 NASB] 6 But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."
[2Ch 30:16 NASB] 16 They stood at their stations after their custom, according to the law of Moses the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood which they received from the hand of the Levites.
[Dan 9:11 NASB] 11 "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
[Luk 2:22 NASB] 22 And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord
[Jhn 7:23 NASB] 23 "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
[1Co 9:9 NASB] 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He?

Note all these “Law of Moses” that are from some part beyond the Ten Commandments (although the Ten Commandments are included in the Law of Moses).

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight,

I see you're talking to the mirror again.

no...right to you...

Good thing I don't go to one of those types of churches. But since you're a mind reader--tell me, where do I attend?

You posted a link over a year ago...you said it was from your church...were you being truthful? It was okay...

Like RM, I've had these arguments with Calvinists with scriptures many times. It's just not worth it to quote scriptures because:

Consider them as "interactions" rather than arguments...it might help..

* Calvinists say you're taking the verse out of context

true 95% of the time

* Calvinists say the verse was directed at someone else

yes...

* Calvinists say the word doesn't mean what it says in plain English

yes...there are many such examples that you give for Calvinists to correct the error

* Calvinists have their own meanings for words.

Yes...that is because they let the bible explain it correctly


Examples:

All: The elect

yes...in jn6:37.....the ALL can only be the elect....Do you think it can be the non elect? How about in ALL IN ADAM ALL IN CHRIST...
All men who ever lived were born in Adam....
were ALL men who ever lived going to be found IN CHRIST on the last day?
It is the same word...All.....I say it can only be the elect In Christ...what do you say?

Draw all Men: Regenerate the Elect

Yes ...not the jew only....all men worldwide who are elected will be effectually drawn by gospel means.

Everyone: The elect

yes...jn 3:16....says every believing one...that would be the elect...you are correct

Faith: Something that the elect are zapped with after regeneration

.

At the same point in time actually....

To Foreknow: To decree or to love, absolutely nothing to do with knowing before.

Biblical foreknowledge is of persons....the elect...not the events, but the persons.

Four Point Calvinist: An Arminian

confused believer who believes but stumblers mostly on the L....

Kosmos: Greek word that means “elect”.

It is where the lost elect will be found now...

Pelagian: Name to call Arminians, extra points if they don’t know what it means.

origin of many arminian ideas...

 

[InTheLight]

I apologize, I thought it was a woman in the real world where greater than 90% of the abortions are performed for the convenience of the unwed mother.

No worries. Most abortions are probably performed by unwed mothers.

 

[glad4mercy]

Thanks for the insightful comments. I think free will is only possible in God's case if he has two natures as we do. One sinful, one Holy. But God is pure love with no room for sin. So we have more of a free will than he does. In heaven, we will not have free will at all, but will think and act only as he does, We will experience and reflect him without any loss, just as Jesus does. Never having to wrestle against sin again.

The flaw in your argument is that it assumes that a being is not free unless that being is free to sin. IMO, that is a faulty definition of freedom.

Sin is not freedom and it never brings freedom, and the ability to sin is not a requisite for freedom. Sin is a perversion, monstrosity, abomination. The ability NOT to sin is the ultimate freedom

 

[1689Dave]

The flaw in your argument is that it assumes that a being is not free unless that being is free to sin. IMO, that is a faulty definition of freedom.

Sin is not freedom and it never brings freedom, and the ability to sin is not a requisite for freedom. Sin is a perversion, monstrosity, abomination. The ability NOT to sin is the ultimate freedom

We are free to choose what we want according to the reasons we base our choices on. But sinners can only choose sin, and ultimately, the born again choose righteousness mostly.

 

[TCassidy]

I find these arguments over the definition of "free will" to be hilarious.

1st guy: "The bible teaches that free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "No! You are a heretic! The bible teaches that free will is green!"

1st guy: "You apostate! Free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "You Satanist! Free will is green!"

Hey guys. You are arguing over something that does not exist!

The lost man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death and is, therefore, not free.

The saved man's will is now bound to the law of New Life in Christ and is, therefore, not free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.

Col 4:7 All my affairs will be made known to you by Tychicus, the beloved brother, faithful servant, and fellow bondservant in the Lord.

 

[glad4mercy]

We are free to choose what we want according to the reasons we base our choices on. But sinners can only choose sin, and ultimately, the born again choose righteousness mostly.

And God does righteously because sin has no place in Him. This does not negate His freedom, for sin does not give freedom. It's like saying you have to be able to potentially die to be immortal. It does not follow

 

[1689Dave]

I find these arguments over the definition of "free will" to be hilarious.

1st guy: "The bible teaches that free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "No! You are a heretic! The bible teaches that free will is green!"

1st guy: "You apostate! Free will is pink!"

2nd guy: "You Satanist! Free will is green!"

Hey guys. You are arguing over something that does not exist!

The lost man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death and is, therefore, not free.

The saved man's will is now bound to the law of New Life in Christ and is, therefore, not free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.

Col 4:7 All my affairs will be made known to you by Tychicus, the beloved brother, faithful servant, and fellow bondservant in the Lord.

Thanks, how do you explain sovereignty and free will?

 

[1689Dave]

And God does righteously because sin has no place in Him. This does not negate His freedom, for sin does not give freedom. It's like saying you have to be able to potentially die to be immortal. It does not follow

Is God free to sin? Thankfully, he has a nature that determines his will and being perfect, he cannot will imperfection.

 

[TCassidy]

Thanks, how do you explain sovereignty and free will?

I don't. I don't compare something that is true, the Sovereignty of God, to something that does not exist, the free will of man.

This argument has all of the merits of the old question "Can God made a rock so big He can't lift it?"

My response to both questions is the same. "He is smart enough to know better."