Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

[1689Dave]

No one said that God wills His nature. He wills according to His nature, but His Will is free

Free only in the context of his nature. But he can only will perfection according to all of his glorious attributes. So he is not free to do otherwise.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

People are slaves to their nature.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. This only points to weak will, not no will. There are levels of weakness, ranging from temptation to addiction. Addiction is slavery.

 

[glad4mercy]

Free only in the context of his nature. But he can only will perfection according to all of his glorious attributes. So he is not free to do otherwise.

He wouldn't want to do otherwise. Therefore, His Will is both perfect and free.

You still haven't defined freedom. Perhaps if you define freedom, we might get somewhere.

 

[glad4mercy]

Did God

People are slaves to their nature. This is true of sinners and Christians as wee, who are bound to their new nature. John says we cannot habitually live in sin. And it is true about God as well. God had to have a nature, wisdom, intelligence, love, perfect knowledge before willing what he did. If he was pure will only, he would not know what or what not to will.

The reason why God cannot do evil (and why one who is born of God does not abide in sin) is because of love. Evil is the result of not loving. Love becomes a slave/servant willingly. It is not bound, but free. Free to serve. Hatred is enslavement. Love is Liberty

Jesus Willingly submitted to His Father, not by coersion, but in love. Jesus became a servant to the ones He called brethren out of Love. The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but of Christ, out of love. We submit to God three in one because we love Him, and we love Him because He first loved us. The servant who had His ear pierced with an awl freely chose remaining with His Master

So love becomes a slave and gives up freedoms, but it does so freely. Love makes a willing servant. Love is not bondage, BUT THE GREATEST LIBERTY OF ALL

God is love, Christ is love, and if the love of Christ sets you free, you are free indeed.

God cannot act contrary to love and justice which is a corollary to perfect love. But love and justice equal perfect liberty. They are the scepters and pillars of Christ's Kingdom. A kingdom ruled and governed by love

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

All I know is that I never heard a preacher preach the Gospel. Didn't hear nothing 'bout no doctrine. I read the Bible and chose to do as it said and been saved since.

I think man merely needs to want to be Saved, God performs the rest. I'm satisfied with being Born-Again, and leave the rest to God.

There's a good song, if I recall, by the Stanley brothers that talks about it:

I can tell you now the time,
I can take you to the place
Where the Lord saved me by His wonderful grace
But I can not tell you how (for I know not the how) and I can not tell you why (and I know not the why)
But He'll tell me all about it (He will tell me all about it) in the by and by (in the by and by)

 

[utilyan]

It's not my claim. Take it up with the Author.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned away. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not so much as one.”

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Thats why I asked previously tell us when God parted sky showed up, proclaimed you were elect, and the shock of doing something good for the first time.

 

[utilyan]

Some spontaneous Calvinist appeared from the waka-waka tribe who has never heard of Jesus Christ.

Things you never hear happen.

 

[1689Dave]

So love becomes a slave and gives up freedoms, but it does so freely

Thanks for the insightful comments. I think free will is only possible in God's case if he has two natures as we do. One sinful, one Holy. But God is pure love with no room for sin. So we have more of a free will than he does. In heaven, we will not have free will at all, but will think and act only as he does, We will experience and reflect him without any loss, just as Jesus does. Never having to wrestle against sin again.

 

[1689Dave]

He wouldn't want to do otherwise. Therefore, His Will is both perfect and free.

If God could sin, you would have a point. But he does not totter between sin and righteousness as we do.

 

[1689Dave]

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. This only points to weak will, not no will. There are levels of weakness, ranging from temptation to addiction. Addiction is slavery.

Sinners can mimic good but apart from the new birth, their motives are always off. If you consider glorifying God in all we think, say, or do as our main purpose in life. This is why Proverbs says the plowing of the wicked is sin. And Paul says whatever is not of faith is sin. So apart from the new birth, people can only choose one form of sin over another.

 

[InTheLight]

Sinners can mimic good but apart from the new birth, their motives are always off. If you consider glorifying God in all we think, say, or do as our main purpose in life. This is why Proverbs says the plowing of the wicked is sin. And Paul says whatever is not of faith is sin. So apart from the new birth, people can only choose one form of sin over another.

The woman that contemplates aborting her baby but chooses to give birth, chooses life. That is sinning in your theology.



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[Iconoclast]

The woman that contemplates aborting her baby but chooses to give birth, chooses life. That is sinning in your theology.



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Whatever is not of faith, or for God's glory is sin.

 

[InTheLight]

Whatever is not of faith, or for God's glory is sin.

Yep, great use of context there. Right up there with "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."

We might as well throw away the 10 commandments and other admonishments against sin since EVERY SINGLE THING we do without faith, i.e. sleep, is a sin.

 

[1689Dave]

The woman that contemplates aborting her baby but chooses to give birth, chooses life. That is sinning in your theology.

If you externalize sin, many people are sinless. But we know better. Scripture says:

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10–18) (KJV 1900)

So if you consider sins of the heart, bad people do good things for bad reasons.

 

[InTheLight]

If you externalize sin, many people are sinless. But we know better. Scripture says:

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10–18) (KJV 1900)

So if you consider sins of the heart, bad people do good things for bad reasons.

Deciding to have a baby vs. aborting a baby is a choice. In your theology having the baby is sin.

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Thanks for the insightful comments. I think free will is only possible in God's case if he has two natures as we do. One sinful, one Holy. But God is pure love with no room for sin. So we have more of a free will than he does. In heaven, we will not have free will at all, but will think and act only as he does, We will experience and reflect him without any loss, just as Jesus does. Never having to wrestle against sin again.

Why are we here, then? Why weren't we just created angels in the first place?

Why did God let Moses argue with Him? Why did God let Lot argue with him?

 

[I Love An Atheist]

Sinners can mimic good but apart from the new birth, their motives are always off. If you consider glorifying God in all we think, say, or do as our main purpose in life. This is why Proverbs says the plowing of the wicked is sin. And Paul says whatever is not of faith is sin. So apart from the new birth, people can only choose one form of sin over another.

You just changed the subject, though. I am sure you are not being intentionally deceptive, because that would be a sin, and you have no free will to be capable of sin. No temptation. I'm sure when you reply you only do it for the glory of God. So the only possible explanation is that you missed my point. So I will make it again.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. This points to weak will, not no will. There are levels of weakness, ranging from temptation to addiction. Addiction is slavery.

This was a response to your saying that people are slaves to their nature.

Would you still respond the same way? If so, how would it be consistent with the verse that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? (Not the flesh is enslaved.)

 

[1689Dave]

You just changed the subject, though. I am sure you are not being intentionally deceptive, because that would be a sin, and you have no free will to be capable of sin. No temptation. I'm sure when you reply you only do it for the glory of God. So the only possible explanation is that you missed my point. So I will make it again.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. This points to weak will, not no will. There are levels of weakness, ranging from temptation to addiction. Addiction is slavery.

This was a response to your saying that people are slaves to their nature.

Would you still respond the same way? If so, how would it be consistent with the verse that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? (Not the flesh is enslaved.)

We can will only according to our nature. Sinners can only choose sin. Example, “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a person. For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person.”” (Matthew 15:18–20) (NET)

Can you see anything here aspiring towards holiness? Or here? “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!” (Galatians 5:19–21) (NET)

 

[1689Dave]

Why are we here, then? Why weren't we just created angels in the first place?

Why did God let Moses argue with Him? Why did God let Lot argue with him?

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” (Ephesians 3:9–10) (KJV 1900)

God created all to display his glory.

 

[1689Dave]

Deciding to have a baby vs. aborting a baby is a choice. In your theology having the baby is sin.

Everything a person does, good or bad, is sin if they are not born again. A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit. I's all about how much we do in love for God.