Free Will Origin of Sin

[Dave G]

He is trying to make the point of the Greek word for "will" which is "thelēma."

Yes, I know.

But my point is, that the cult of Thelema's favorite subject, is "Free Will".
A will, with results, that has power over anything in its path.

A will that gets what it wants...free and unfettered by anything outside of itself.
A will that is above God's will.
"Do what thou wilt should be the whole of the Law" - Aleister Crowley.

Every time this subject comes up, I find myself comparing what some teach about how salvation is accomplished, with what unsaved men believe and teach...that their will is paramount.

Here are some more quotes I found interesting:

" Where there's a will, there's a way". - Unknown
" What people have the capacity to choose, they have the ability to change.”- Madeleine Albright
" You say: I am not free. But I have raised and lowered my arm. Everyone understands that this illogical answer is an irrefutable proof of freedom.”- Leo Tolstoy
" Human beings do not like being pushed about by gods. They may seem to, on the surface, but somewhere on the inside, underneath it all, they sense it, and they resent it.” - Neil Gaiman

" God isn't about making good things happen to you, or bad things happen to you. He's all about you making choices--exercising the gift of free will. God wants you to have good things and a good life, but He won't gift wrap them for you. You have to choose the actions that lead you to that life.” - Jim Butcher

" You are not controlling the storm, and you are not lost in it. You are the storm.”- Sam Harris, Free Will.

" ... how terrible is the pain of the mind and heart when the freedom of mankind is suppressed!”- E.A. Bucchianeri

" You cannot hinder someone’s free will, that’s the first law of the Universe, no matter what the decision.” - E.A. Bucchianeri

" You may fetter my leg, but Zeus himself cannot get the better of my free will.”- Epictetus

" Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty.”- Henry David Thoreau

" We are the sum total of the decisions we have made.” - E.A. Bucchianeri

" Remember that the choices you make, and the reasons you make them, shape your destiny. Remember your free will...And remember, what the True One has made is supposed to bring balance and unity, not anger, fear or revenge. Do not fear, what is yours to use. Only beware the ends to which it is turned, and know the means will truly determine the outcome.”- Derek Donais


To me, unsaved men philosophize all the day long about the power of their will...while the child of God should wake up and pay attention to the vain philosophy that permeates the world around them, and then say to Him, "Thy will be done", exactly as their Saviour said ( Matthew 6:10, Luke 22:42 ), instead of falling for the argument that their will is what contributed to their salvation...when it didn't ( John 1:13 ).


..and here's an example of how that free will supposedly stops God in His tracks:
If "world" here means every man, woman and child, then why isn't His will being done?

" Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:4 )

I know of no will more powerful than the Lord's, of whom even Satan had to ask permission to touch one of His servants, in the book of Job.
Does anyone here think that Miriam wanted to be stricken with leprosy in Numbers 12:1-16?
Did her free will stop the Lord from doing it?
No.

By the same token...
If God wants to save someone, what's stopping Him?

I say "nothing".
The free will advocate says, "our free will".

I still am unable to find where Scripture states anywhere, that man's will decides his destiny.
I see places that people can assume it by implication, but not by declaration.
Apparently, I've missed the part where the Bible states that man's will is more powerful than God's.
That's because it isn't there.



I'm just glad He didn't think He had to ask my permission when He decided to save me.
Give up all that sin and pleasure to have a relationship with Him and His Son?
My stubborn free will would never have let Him.

 

[Rockson]

I am sorry you can't understand it, but I dumbed it down as much as I can.

well smart it up, correct the errors and we will all be better,

LOL! Ha....Must say a stellar come back.

 

[The Biblicist]

Repeating does not explain.

There is one man, body soul and spirit, two natures, one individual.
We as redeemed sin but it is not charged to our "account" because we have accept salvation.
There are not two separate men, just two inclination.

you sin, as a free choice, God does not want you to sin

The "spirit" of man is what has been "quickened" or "born again" (Jn.3:6) not his soul or body. To be quickened or made alive to God is to be brought into spiritual union with God. The human "spirit" has been brought into spiritual union with God. This is a creative act of God (Eph. 4:24; Col.3:10) and this creative act restores the "spirit' of man into the moral image of God (Eph. 4:24) so that it exists in a state of righteousness and "true holiness" as it is united with the Spirit of God who cannot sin. The quickened human spirit has been fully "saved" = glorified - so, no sin can originate from the quickened spirit. This inner condition is called the "inward man" or "new man" which is born of God and what is born of God cannot sin.

However, our "soul" and "body" have not been quickened, have not been glorified. So, the redeemed man exists in a dual state. His spirit is sinless, quickened, in spiritual union with God and acts as the internal temple of the Holy Spirit as God cannot exist in sin. On the other hand, the "law of sin" dwells in the physical body which is the means for interacting with the external world through the five senses and physical drives (sex, food, comfort, etc.)"Corruption" is still advancing in the physical body. The indwelling "law of sin" uses the physical natural drives of the human body to war against our "soul." The soul is the battle ground between the quickened spirit and the indwelling sin in our bodies.

The spirit is the seat of our morality. The quickened spirit exists in righteousness and true holiness. The state of the spirit determines the moral inclination of the soul. The moral inclination of the soul in a person who has a regenerated spirit is toward good. Paul says this clearly in Romans 7:18. He says nothing good originates from his body - but to will to do good is present but the power to overcome the law of sin in the body he cannot find in this dual state of human nature as it is found only in the indwelling person and power of the Spirit. So, for the soul which is inclined to do good but has no inherent power to enforce his will to do Good, must choose to admit this, die to self-power and by faith depend on the power of the Holy Spirit to enforce his will to do good. This is how the soul wins a battle, redeems the time, as it is placed between the new man and the flesh. Progressive sanctification, or spiritual growth is determined by how well and how often, how habitual, how characteristic the child of God puts on the new man and puts off the new man by this self-denial and dependence on the power of the Spirit.

 

[Rockson]

I still am unable to find where Scripture states anywhere, that man's will decides his destiny.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."
Deut 30: 19

Oh by the way Dave that's as clear a declaration as one can make it so please spare us your claim in saying anyone is just assuming this by implication or whatever you meant by saying this this your last post.

He said it--->Two choices....if they weren't REAL potential choices then he would have been dishonest in saying they were, BUT they were! LIFE...DEATH.....YOU CHOOSE ! YOUR DESTINY!

 

[The Biblicist]

When the subject of original sin arises, I think there are many things that should be distinguished before we can grasp it correctly.

Prior to the fall of Satan or mankind, the moral condition of both was righteousness and good. Indeed, when God looked at all he had created and made he pronounced all as "good." So, sin originates out of "good" as nothing else existed but that which was "good." This is important to realize as later it will bear significantly on the true nature of the will of man prior to the fall versus after the fall. Neither Satan or man was created in an immutable state of righteousness but rather in a mutable state which means it was possible for them to fall from that moral state or "upright" condition. It also means they were capable of being tested and could pass or fail that test.

Neither man or Lucifer knew sin when they were created or before they sinned. We mean "know" in the sense of experiential knowledge rather than know about it. They had to know about it in order to be tested. Man was explicitly told what was right and what was wrong so he knew about sin but he had no experiential knowledge of sin prior to the fall.

Sin had no origin prior to the fall of Lucifer or man. The only thing existing prior to sin was "good" and everything was "good." Sin originates from the misuse of "good." It was "good" to want to be like God but it was sin to want to be like God in the sense of equality with God. The Bible says that sin was "found" in Lucifer and so sin originated in Lucifer through abuse of that which was good - he wanted to be like God but to the extent of equality with God.

There is a profound distinction of the arise of sin in Adam versus Eve. Eve was "deceived" into wanting to be like God in the sense of equality with God. However, Adam was not deceived, but fully understood it was wrong to desire to be equal with God. Something else motivated Adam to willfully sin. I believe that Adam's sin arose from "good" in another source of desire. I believe he fully understood what Eve had done and his love for Eve was the motivating factor. It was good for him to "love" Eve but not to the extent that his love for Eve exceeded his love for God. I believe he fully knew what Eve had done and what would be the consequences and willfully chose to love Eve above God, in other words, he would rather die with Eve than live without her. This is why one of the penalties of the fall is that the woman's fallen nature would be disruptive to her relationship with man. So the very basis of Adam's choice becomes a perpetual problem.

However, the free choice to fall into sin brought spiritual separation from God which is the true essence of "death." God is light, love, life and holiness. To be separated from God is to become spiritually separated from light (darkened understanding), spiritually separated from love (enmity toward God), spiritually separated from life (dead) and spiritually separated from holiness (depraved). Now, it is in this new found fallen spiritual condition that the will of man now exists and operates under. The human will is not free from the moral condition of the soul but rather is the mechanism for implementing the moral inclination of the soul. That is precisely why the term "will" in New Testament Greek is a translation of either the term "boulomai" or "thelomai." Boulomai refers to the will under the primary direction of the mind or intellect, whereas, theolomai refers to the will under the primary direction of the heart/emotions/feelings.

The will is not free from the human heart and mind but is the means for expressing the intents of the heart and deliberations of the mind. Thus sin, is not merely external activities (words and actions) but is foremost the internal intent and deliberations of the heart and mind. The will acts as the transition delivery system between the internal moral state and external manifestations of that moral state in the form of words and actions. Hence, Jesus says that adultery is not to be confined to merely external actions but must begin with internal intent and deliberations. Hence, murder is not to be merely confined to external actions that separate the soul from the body of another human being but includes the internal moral intents and deliberations as well as the external words.

In fallen man there is no freedom of the human will to express anything contrary to their internal moral state which exists in spiritual separation from God. The human will is simply free to express that moral condition of mind and heart. It is the new birth that changes the moral inclination of the soul because the new birth brings the spirit of man back into spiritual union with God and it is the spiritual condition of the spirit of man that determines the moral inclination of the soul.

It is man in this fallen state that Jesus declares "no man can come to me EXCEPT" proving that the will of man in this fallen state is incapable of choosing to come to Christ not because of any external force but due to its own internal moral state of inclination that is defined by the terms darkness, death, enmity and depravity or spiritual separation from the life, light, love, and holiness of God (Eph. 4:19-20). The fallen will is perfectly free to do exactly what it "wants to do" and its wants are dictated by the intents of the heart and deliberations of the mind which exist in a state of rebellion against God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

The focus on my comments is on the inconsistent reformed use of the word "dead". Reformed folks incorrectly claim that when scripture says we are spiritually dead it means dead like a corps. The problem is that a "dead like a corps" person should have no ability to respond at all positively or negatively. After all a dead corps "literally" cannot respond to anything. Of course it does not mean dead like a corps and there is no good reason to believe it does. The eisegetical presupposition that drives such an idea comes from their systematic theology. Even reformed folks recognize that man can and does respond negatively. So that negates their definition of dead. When scripture says we should be dead to sin it means we should be separated from sin. This separation comes from a conscience choice.

Scripture never declares that "dead" means like a corps but instead gives every indication that it simply refers to the separation of man from God. In other words there is no relationship there. Neither does scripture tell us that it means man in unable to respond to the gospel. What scripture does tell us is that regardless of where man is at spiritually, the gospel has power to overcome the spiritual condition of man and that it is the only thing that enables man to respond. There is never a description, in scripture, of man being regenerated by God prior to man being able to respond to the gospel.

Jesus Himself did not see dead as meaning corps like. In fact He called the church at Sardis dead and then commanded them to wake up! If they were dead, according to reformed folks, they could not do what Jesus has called them to do. The prodigal was called dead yet he was able to respond both positively and negatively. What made him dead was his rebellion and separation from his father but now that he has returned he was no longer considered dead but alive.

 

[Yeshua1]

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."
Deut 30: 19

Oh by the way Dave that's as clear a declaration as one can make it so please spare us your claim in saying anyone is just assuming this by implication or whatever you meant by saying this this your last post.

He said it--->Two choices....if they weren't REAL potential choices then he would have been dishonest in saying they were, BUT they were! LIFE...DEATH.....YOU CHOOSE ! YOUR DESTINY!

Apostle paul disagrees with you on this, as he saw that the lost sinner cannot and will not receive the things that are of God, as he is blind to them, and at war with God!

 

[loDebar]

"The religion known as Thelema was founded in 1904 by the English poet and mystic Aleister Crowley (1875 – 1947), who is regarded as its prophet. Those who follow the path of Thelema are called Thelemites. Thelema emphasizes individualism, and the uniqueness of each person’s Will. "

Thelema

"According to Thelemic doctrine, the expression of Divine Law in the Æon of Horus is “Do what thou wilt”."

Free will...what every man screams loudest about.


IoDebar, you do know what John 1:13 is saying, don't you?

I was just referencing the word

 

[Dave G]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."
Deut 30: 19

The first thing I notice about this passage, when I read through Deuteronomy, is this:

" These [are] the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb." ( Deuteronomy 29:1 )

God made a covenant of Law with a single nation upon the face of the earth, and that is who is being addressed in that passage.
That is the "you" in Deuteronomy 30:19.

He is urging Israel, and Israel alone ( not all of mankind ), to choose the life He offers through the covenant of Law.
If they obeyed, He promised to bless them...if they disobeyed, He promised to curse them.

That covenant was abolished in Christ ( Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:13-14, Hebrews 8:13 ).
If memory serves, I've already pointed much of this out to you.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave G]

I was just referencing the word

I realize that.
I was showing you how it's come to be associated in recent times, and what some of those who associate it, believe.

Thelema --------------> Will ------------> Man's self-exalting philosophy -------------> "free will gospel".

The "free will" gospel exalts man's decision over God's.
It puts man in the driver's seat and God either is in the passenger seat, or in the back seat.
God then taps on the man's shoulder and gives him guidance, but does not actually do any of the driving.

The real Gospel puts God in the driver's seat, and God does the driving ( Philippians 2:13 )...
The saved man or woman sits in the passenger seat, and is basically along for the ride, because their salvation is a sure thing.
They do things out of a love for God, and their faith is evidence of it.
They endure trials and tribulations, because they were afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:23 ) they do not prepare themselves to glory by agreeing with God, or "accepting Christ".

Rather, God does the accepting ( Ephesians 1:6 )


"Free will gospel" = "God is my co-pilot."
The Gospel = "God is my pilot."

"Free will gospel" = God offers salvation and waits for a response.
The Gospel = God promises salvation and knows there would be no response unless He causes it ( Psalms 65:4 ).

The origin of free will is with God.
But man's will isn't free and unbiased anymore...it's now swung like a pendulum, way back over to sit firmly against God and His ways.


This is what Scripture teaches in Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 as well as others in the Psalms an Proverbs.

 

[loDebar]

God gives us free will in order to love him without coercion. In this free will we can also disobey or not. We are condemned already and God provides us the opportunity to understand repentance and salvation. The Holy Spirit brings us to the point od decision making and in free will we make a choice. We have consequences of our decisions, Salvation is only from God, offered to all and those who choice to accept the pardon through Christ are saved.

If there is no free will, God created sin and chose to send some to hell while saving others, Both statements must be false according to scripture.

 

[Dave G]

The focus on my comments is on the inconsistent reformed use of the word "dead"

I wouldn't know the "Reformed" use of the word "dead", since my understanding comes straight from Scripture itself.
I've never studied "Reformed theology", nor "Reformed doctrine", at least not until I started to see it for myself in my reading of Scripture.
I do not subscribe to Reformed Theology to this day.
I do, however, subscribe to "T.U.L.I.P."

Reformed folks incorrectly claim that when scripture says we are spiritually dead it means dead like a corps. The problem is that a "dead like a corps" person should have no ability to respond at all positively or negatively.

Again, Scripture plainly states that man IS responding...against God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20...and every passage that states that the world hates Jesus Christ and those who identify with Him ).
Therefore, he is "dead" towards God, and walking the other direction, spiritually ( Ephesians 4:18 ).

After all a dead corps "literally" cannot respond to anything.

I agree...a physically dead corpse cannot respond to anything, because the senses are dead.
In the same way, a spiritually dead person cannot respond to God, because the spiritual senses are dead / darkened ( Again, Ephesians 4:18, among others ).

Of course it does not mean dead like a corps and there is no good reason to believe it does. The eisegetical presupposition that drives such an idea comes from their systematic theology.

I'm not sure about you, but that's what I read out of God's word...not into it.
Having never been previously exposed to "Reformed Theology", that is how I take it, independent of anything I've ever read outside of God's word.

Even reformed folks recognize that man can and does respond negatively. So that negates their definition of dead.

Not in the least, as I see it.
The definition is, "dead towards God".

Scripture never declares that "dead" means like a corps but instead gives every indication that it simply refers to the separation of man from God.

Granted, that is the way you understand it, and I recognize that.
However, to me, there is enough of Scripture for anyone who is looking for it, to ascertain what "dead in sins" is...for example, Romans 3:10-18, and Ephesians 4:18 for starters.

Neither does scripture tell us that it means man in unable to respond to the gospel

Scripture itself declares that the lost, unregenerate ( not born again ) man is unable to respond to anything of the Spirit of God, including His blessed Gospel:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 )

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )


Since the Gospel is a thing of the Spirit of God, then it is foolishness to the natural man ( the one whose nature has not yet been changed ), who cannot know it because it is spiritually discerned, like the rest of God's word.
Please see 1 Corinthians 1:18 for clarification...the "natural man" is the same as the "them that perish", and the preaching of the Gospel is, again, foolishness to "them that perish".


With respect, I believe we've covered this in previous threads.

 

[Dave G]

What scripture does tell us is that regardless of where man is at spiritually, the gospel has power to overcome the spiritual condition of man and that it is the only thing that enables man to respond.

Scripture tells us that God's Spirit is the only thing that is able to overcome the spiritual condition of man:

" not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" ( Titus 3:5 )

The Gospel is the message to His children of their salvation:

" In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

The Gospel does not have any power unless the Holy Spirit uses it, and is behind its call.
Otherwise, it falls on "deaf" ears ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

There is never a description, in scripture, of man being regenerated by God prior to man being able to respond to the gospel.

Sure there is:

" And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:13-14 )

Lydia's heart was opened, so that she attended to ( listened intently to ) the things ( the Gospel ) which were spoken by Paul.
The very same thing happened to me at the age of 12.


May God, in His wisdom, grant you both grace and knowledge.

 

[Dave G]

If there is no free will, God created sin and chose to send some to hell while saving others, Both statements must be false according to scripture.

God does not create sin, nor does He tempt a man to sin:

" Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" ( James 1:13 )
So, God did not tempt Adam, neither did He create sin.


"Free" ( unbiased, neutrally moral ) will, according to Scripture, is a fallacy...
Respectfully, man's will is already biased against Him:

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 )

Every one that does evil ( sins ) hates the light ( Jesus, the light of the world ), neither comes to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved ( reprimanded, corrected ).

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." ( Romans 8:5-8 )

The carnal mind ( the unregenerate, selfish, God-hating mind ) is enmity with ( at odds with, against ) God.
It is not subject to the Law of God, neither can it be.
It is in rebellion against God.


His grace and blessings upon you sir, should His will be so.

 

[Rockson]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."
Deut 30: 19

The first thing I notice about this passage, when I read through Deuteronomy, is this:

" These [are] the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb." ( Deuteronomy 29:1 )

God made a covenant of Law with a single nation upon the face of the earth, and that is who is being addressed in that passage.
That is the "you" in Deuteronomy 30:19.

Well Dave so many things could be said about your reply. First of all....so what? Dave wasn't your prior statement the following,

"I still am unable to find where Scripture states anywhere, that man's will decides his destiny."

Sorry my friend I don't agree with your assessment as the one nation thing but let's just stay there for a moment. You've now said,

God made a covenant of Law with a single nation upon the face of the earth, and that is who is being addressed in that passage. That is the "you" in Deuteronomy 30:19

So Dave you've just acknowledged that God gave man through his will the ability to decide his own destiny! You want to claim it was just Israel which I'll deal with in another post but none the less you've agreed God allowed them to choose their own destiny between life or death blessing or cursing. Well Deut 30:19 is the scripture you couldn't find where man decides his own destiny. How can anything be more clear?

He is urging Israel, and Israel alone ( not all of mankind ),

Don't agree with you but let's go with it. You have therefore scripture which shows God has allowed men to choose their own destiny.

 

[Dave G]

So Dave you've just acknowledged that God gave man through his will the ability to decide his own destiny!

No, I haven't.

As I see it, there's no contradiction at all.
To me, you're taking something that was written to ancient Israel, and attempting to apply it to all men.
They are not the same, sir.

What I think you're missing, is that what was written in the book of the Law was not in the eternal sense ( and does not apply to salvation ), but did apply under the terms of the earthly covenant that God made with Israel.
That is the nature of the old covenant.

Earthly blessings for earthly obedience.
Earthly cursings for earthly disobedience.

The two covenants are not the same.
Both involve select people that God has made a covenant with, but they differ dramatically.

The first was temporary, and was instituted because of sin:

" Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." ( Galatians 3:19 )

Until the Seed ( Messiah, Jesus the Christ ) should come to whom the promise was made ( Galatians 3:16 ).
A Mediator of a better covenant ( Hebrews 8:6-13 ).

It was never intended to fill an eternal "set of rules" that would apply to all men eternally.
To me, this is the mistake people make when they try to "overlay" the Old Testament, and its obligations, onto the New.

The two are diametrically opposed to one another.
Their language is not the same.
Neither were they ever intended to be the same.

Otherwise, the first would never have been done away with.

 

[Dave G]

Don't agree with you but let's go with it. You have therefore scripture which shows God has allowed men to choose their own destiny.

I disagree, and I'll develop what I've said above, further.

What we have, therefore, is a Scripture that shows that God is offering a select nation, one with whom He had initiated a temporal ( earthly ) covenant with through His prophet Moses, the ability to live either a peaceful, blessed life under the Law, or a cursed life full of sorrows.

In other words, God is allowing, under the terms of the old covenant of Law, His chosen nation of Israel to choose their own earthly destiny...one of God subduing their earthly enemies around them, or one of God allowing their earthly enemies to overcome them.
It only applied to this life, not to the next.

Also, please notice that God made a covenant with them ( Deuteronomy 29:1 )...not the other way around.

Man does not initiate covenants with God, because his willfully rebellious nature won't allow it.
Sin constantly rules his will ( Mark 7:20-23, Romans 1:32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ), and anything temporary, outside of a change of heart and desires, that attempts to address the will of a man who loves sin and hates a God that commands him to repent, will never work, eternally.
It will never work temporally, either.

The first covenant proved it.

A person whose nature has not been changed, will continually backslide into old sins, because their will / desire is dominated by it.
Multiply that into a group of people, and the problem grows exponentially.
Make it apply to a nation, and the proof of an unchanged nature in large numbers of people is littered all over the Old Testament.


However...

Change what motivates a man, and you've just changed his desires.
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
Religious people, whose nature and will has never been changed by God, are of the same opinion of God as they were before they "got religion".

But change that nature, which changes the will...and it changes the opinion of God.

Take the desire to sin away, and replace it with a desire to obey.
Take out the heart of stone ( towards God ) and replace it with a heart of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ).


The Law was never intended to show mankind that the way to God was through obedience, because we as men could never obey.
It was never intended to show men that their destiny was in their own hands ( left in our own hands, God would have no choice, because of His justice and holiness, but to send us all to Hell...because we would never repent. ).


The Law was intended to show us the necessity of a Saviour...
Jesus Christ.

" Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." ( Galatians 3:24 )

Does it seem like I'm talking around in circles?
That isn't my intention.

My intention is to show you why the passages that appear to show man being able to determine his destiny, actually do not.
It's because of context.


The context of Deuteronomy 30:19, is the nation of Israel, not all men.
Again, the language of the old covenant is not in the context of eternal life...it is in the context of "temporal", earthly life filled with blessings or cursings.

In addition, we as Gentiles were never under that covenant ( except those who joined themselves to Israel ).
That covenant was abolished in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 3:7-13 ), and its terms no longer apply to any man.


So, at the foundation of it all is man's will.
Man's true obedience to God is contingent upon his nature being changed, which changes the will.
Free will isn't free, unless a person has been born again...then it goes from being free to sin, to being freed from sin.




May you and yours be blessed with all good things, abundantly.

 

[Rockson]

I disagree, and I'll develop what I've said above, further.

What we have, therefore, is a Scripture that shows that God is offering a select nation, one with whom He had initiated a temporal ( earthly ) covenant with through His prophet Moses, the ability to live either a peaceful, blessed life under the Law, or a cursed life full of sorrows.

Oh come on Dave look how even in your answer you veer away from even using the word choose which is in the Deut 30:19 text. It seems you'll do anything not to acknowledge it's there. Say it then Dave he gave them the right to CHOOSE to have life or CHOOSE to have death. He also gave Adam and Eve the right to CHOOSE to have life or CHOOSE to have death.

 

[Dave G]

Oh come on Dave look how even in your answer you veer away from even using the word choose which is in the Deut 30:19 text. It seems you'll do anything not to acknowledge it's there. Say it then Dave he gave them the right to CHOOSE to have life or CHOOSE to have death. He also gave Adam and Eve the right to CHOOSE to have life or CHOOSE to have death.

Sir, with respect, I'm losing track of how many times we've discussed this.

According to Scripture, the choice has already been made, eternally...death ( Romans 1:32 ).
Israel's choice was already made by them...death.
Check their history.
By choosing sin, they chose temporal death.
By choosing sin, mankind, as a whole, chose eternal death and chooses it every day by our refusal to repent.

As I see it, you've completely missed the significance of what I've put in my posts...it's as if all you want to see is that man can make a choice with regard to eternal life or eternal death.
The choice has already been made at the heart level, and continues to be made.
That is precisely why very few genuinely believe on Christ.

We don't do it...God causes it.

Unchanged, unregenerate mankind does not and will not not choose God....ever.
The Scripture you posted only applies in the context of Israel, and only in the context of an earthly covenant that God had made with Israel.
Any verse in the Old Testament that appears to show men making a choice to obey God, is in the context of the old covenant, which Israel as a nation, agreed to.
It has nothing to do with eternal life.
He is putting before them, per the terms of the covenant that they agreed to, the choice... to choose earthly blessings or earthly curses.



He made the covenant, and He did His part to hold up His end of it, perfectly.
What did they do throughout their history?
They chose their sin over obeying Him.
The "proof is in the pudding"...

The evidence of their ( by and large ) unchanged natures, manifested itself in continued disobedience.
The miracle was, that anyone within the entire nation even bothered to seek Him and His ways, and it's because He caused it ( Psalms 65:4, Romans 11:1-6 ).
What was written in the "Old Testament" was written for the believer's learning ( Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 ), so that we might not only have hope, but that we also might see that, short of God causing a miracle of the new birth, no one would be convinced to obey Him consistently.


A heart change is absolutely necessary before anything else can take place.

 

[Dave G]

Rockson,

Your position has always seemed to be that man, despite his darkened mind and heart ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) has somehow been given the grace by God to make a choice.
My position will always be that, God does not give everyone that grace, but only His elect, whom He has chosen ( Mark 13:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, James 2:5 ) from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

A will that is free to choose God is an illusion, because God's word states that unrepentant, unregenerate man hates Jesus Christ ( Matthew 10:22, John 3:20, John 7:7, John 15:18, , 1 John 3:13 ) within his unchanged nature, and that without a work of regeneration ( Titus 3:5-6 ), they cannot love Him.

Before a love of God and His words can be possible, He must first change the nature... thereby changing the will in the process.
Without it, man would never respond to anything except the "bit and the bridle" ( Psalms 32:9, Proverbs 10:13, Proverbs 19:29, Proverbs 26:3 ).
The Lord calls all those who He has not given a righteous heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, John 3:3, John 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Jeremiah 24:7, Psalms 119:2, Jeremiah 32:40, Hebrews 8:10 ) , "brute beasts" ( 2 Peter 2:12-22, Jude 1:10 ), because that is what we are, in His eyes, without the miraculous re-birth.

Mankind, in this condition, will not seek God in all his ways ( Psalms 10:4, Psalms 36:1-4, Romans 3:10-18 ).
There is no such thing as "Prevenient Grace" or enabling grace ( which was a teaching of Pelagius, John Wesley's, the Roman Catholic Church's and many others ) in all of Scripture.
There is only God's miraculous grace, and it is aimed at His children, not to all of mankind.

The question often asked is, " But doesn't that make God unfair, that He would not give all men a chance to make a choice?"
Again, the choice has been made and is being made continuously in our hearts, but for the grace of God.

In addition, if eternal life were put before men as a choice, what would a man have to do in order to gain it?
Believe?
Again...belief is a gift ( Philippians 1:29 ) and a work of God ( John 6:29 ), which puts us back to square one: "checkmate".
Man has to believe...but how, if it is a gift of God?

Precisely.
So, if you truly believe in your heart of hearts on Jesus Christ the Son of the living God, then count yourself blessed right along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God saves, and God casts into Hell.
If anyone believes on His Son, it is because He caused it...we didn't "co-operate" with God in His work of saving someone.
Salvation is 100% "of God", and none of man.

We are responsible, and we are at His mercy.
He doesn't owe us anything except our wages ( Romans 6:23 ).
Anything beyond that is by His grace.


Who are we to determine what is "fair"?
Are we going to argue with God ( Isaiah 45:9, Romans 9:20 ), who is the perfect Judge ( John 12:48 ) of all matters ( Hebrews 4:12 )?

He tells us that we are bankrupt in our sins and in the darkened state that we are in.
You appear to say that He doesn't state that.
In fact, you seem to think that you can purchase your way to Heaven by some effort of your own, from my perspective.

Rockson, eternal life is a gift, not a reward.

No one is "moving the goal posts", as one has said thus far...
The "goal posts" are that salvation has always been a work of God, it its entirety.
God is responsible for every facet of a person coming to Him in belief and faith...men have nothing to boast in, except Him.
It's designed that way to abase man and to exalt God ( Psalms 51:1, Jeremiah 9:24, Micah 7:18, 1 Corinthians 1:31, 2 Corinthians 10:17, Galatians 6:14 ).

Again, what you're proposing makes it into a reward...whether you are aware of it or not.
If eternal life were by man's choice, this would make God a debtor ( Romans 4:4 ) to mankind.
Man is in debt to God, not the other way around.



God's "plan of salvation" does not include cooperating with Him.
It's His plan, and He planned it according to His perfect will, not our corrupt ones.