DrJamesAch
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If the will is always bound by nature, and even Christians were by nature children of wrath, then nobody would ever be saved because the believer would have always been bound to his sinful nature.
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free will vs. election???????
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If the will is always bound by nature, and even Christians were by nature children of wrath, then nobody would ever be saved because the believer would have always been bound to his sinful nature.
You seem to miss one very important aspect.
Man chooses to do evil not because he has "free" will, but because his will is bound to choose evil.
For instance, when the Scriptures state that evil folks know how to give good gifts, it is not saying that the evil people have the capacity to choose what is righteous. It is merely stating that humankind know right from wrong and that they can discern right giving from wrong giving. The same as one can choose healthy or unhealthy, what is wrong with a car or right with a car, what is appropriate and what is inappropriate, what is modest and immodest... On a side, all that the natural man chooses will eventually decay and be worthless - which speaks clearly that the natural man receives nothing of the Spirit of God (in particular the fruit of the Spirit).
However, the point being made by you is valid, in that one cannot nor do they have the "free will" / "free choice" ability to seek salvation. It must be under the direct and purposed work of God in a person that brings that person to Christ. That is rudimentary to election.
Ah, but for the Grace of God we would all perish!!!!!
You wanted to state a reason to reject the truth of what others have posted and yet have found that within what you just posted a very foundational aspect of election.
Humankind outside of the direct and purposed work of God is totally incapable and unable to come to salvation.
One of the greatest passages of Scriptures teaches this very subject: Romans 8.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Amazed that dr. faux has placed man in such a position that he could never get saved. He skips right past God to accept that it must be impossible if such a state were true.
In other words, looking at his statement he sees no way for MAN to help HIMSELF to get saved because he is so bound in a sinful nature. By this we see the foundation of error within his soteriology!
But praise be to God we have the answer here:
'But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
It is God that saves and frees man. Man is incapable of doing it himself due to his lost state. God does it all.
HisWitness
New Member
his will is not bound--he chooses evil because he is evil and that is what he loves--hes using his free will to choose that that he loves and will do so everytime he is givin the choice to do so.
im sorry but if he is bound to choose evil then it is not his choice at all he has no say so in the matter--and will have an excuse before God to offer up
Truth is he does have a say so just like adam did--and he chooses according to his will to do evil not because hes bound to do so--but because he loves Sin and pleasure of the flesh more than God--PERIOD--
and the only thing to break him free of his own free choosing is the Grace of God--making him willing and causing him to love God instead of evil
sorry friend I can no longer give man an excuse that he might present before God--But I will make man totally responsible for his own actions by his free will choosing.:love2::love2:
HisWitness
New Member
also what you teach is--man is bound to do evil...
what that is really saying is man cant choose God nor can he choose evil--because he is bound to do evil and he has no choice at all--my friends that is kinda like man is a robot and doesn't have a choice at all to do anything he just does evil because hes programmed to do so--utter foolishness!!!
Some consider their natural born "will" as the only "will" and that somehow God in salvation modifies the natural will.
That isn't Scriptural.
The believer's are NEW creatures... and that includes a new will.
The old will wars against the new - as Paul discusses in such passages as the putting off and putting on.
But, the old will is part of the old nature. The old will is not disposed of, nor replaced, nor modified. It will die as part of the discard as we put on eternity.
If it were not so, and the will was modified, replaced, or disposed of, then there would be no struggle in the life of the believer, and every decision would be tuned to God.
We would never truthfully sing "Prone to wander, Lord I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love."
Paul would never have cause to write "Oh, retched man that I am..."
That isn't Scriptural.
The believer's are NEW creatures... and that includes a new will.
The old will wars against the new - as Paul discusses in such passages as the putting off and putting on.
But, the old will is part of the old nature. The old will is not disposed of, nor replaced, nor modified. It will die as part of the discard as we put on eternity.
If it were not so, and the will was modified, replaced, or disposed of, then there would be no struggle in the life of the believer, and every decision would be tuned to God.
We would never truthfully sing "Prone to wander, Lord I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love."
Paul would never have cause to write "Oh, retched man that I am..."
God doesn't need and excuse to send man to hell - he is condemned already (John 3).
Man will always make excuses just as Adam did when confronted by God.
What some want to claim is "free will" / "free choice" natural ability is not freedom at all. God did not leave some generic seed in man.
Man is either of the seed of the devil or the seed of God. There is no middle ground.
What some would desire is to elevate man into the decision making capacity of being able to choose God and righteousness outside of the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit.
Can't be done - even when the people of Israel attempted they ultimately failed. God will redeem all Israel, but it is HIM implanting new natures into the folk, not them making fleshly attempts that historically have been failures and therefore of no real value.
For decades the typical SBC was feed by preachers who were schooled by those who taught that inside each humankind is a God like void. That the person seeks to fill that void with the world, until such a time as they see the real void filler is God.
There are many variations on that theme, but it all comes down to basically a heretical doctrine that man has the innate ability and is capable of willing to choose to be saved, irregardless of the call of God through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Be careful what you call "utter foolishness."
You are not arguing against me in this matter, but the apostle Paul:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwells in you.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwells in you.
Yes! I have heard that many times and I swallowed it because I was new to Bible study and assumed these people knew more than me. I even heard a man at my church say that recently.
Studying the Bible for years now, I know better. :thumbsup:
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HisWitness
New Member
all the scriptures you have given goes right along with what im saying.
even thou man will offer that excuse you are giving him to present to God--it will prevail not for the man--man has no excuse before God--but I am saying you are giving man something else more to try and justify himself before God at the Judgement--where is it taught in scripture that man's will has been bound to evil ?
man has always had a choice between good and evil--and everytime apart from the working of God in his life he chooses evil--he has always had a free will in the matter--but he is evil and uses that will to do evil.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Man is bound in all his being and enslaved to sin, including his will -- see John 8:30ff.
Then there is this, we are described as under this condition spiritually; 'the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint, from the sole of the foot even to the head there is no soundness in it but bruises and sores and raw wounds, they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.' Isaih 1:5-6
This was not written of the physical body, but of the whole spirit and being of lost man. Yet now we have one (and others) coming along and saying we aren't altogether in such a state.
There is where the fallacy comes from -- disagreeing with Gods testimony concerning the state of lost man.
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HisWitness
New Member
yes those scriptures are true friend--describing man as totally evil--no where does that scripture say of man being bound--but saying man is totally evil and corrupt in his ways--because man loves sin and evil and chooses with his will do go in that direction and will do so unless God intervenes.
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:applause::thumbsup:
I like this, from here the response was "Gods Grace changes that" paraphrasing obviously
The question then is why doesn't God move His 'Irresistable Grace' On all? Does God love everyone or some people? If you are to say that God loves only those whom He has predestined to love. The nature of God is now tarnished imho.
preacher4truth
Active Member
And thus you have it. God in a box and He must succomb to your desires, and fit your mold, or He is not God.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes, you must keep a part of man good in order to come to your conclusions when God says the whole man is dead. That means all of him which includes his will.
Leave your ad hominems at the door. Saying God is tarnished by the Idea that God only loves some, does not make any mold, it is what scripture reveals to me and many scholars. So unless you have a proper response... 2 words... puh lease.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Not at all. You've been found out, it's up to you to face it or not. I couldn't care less about your hypothetical scholars who remain unquoted. Nothing in what I said was ad hominen, it was merely a reflection of what you've done with the Godhead. If He happens to be other than what you make Him out to be or desire Him to be, to you He is tarnished.
In fact, what you said is actually the ad hominem, and projected at God if not fitting into your box.
Thankfully you are not God.
God word says,
That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
God word says,
so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.
God's word says,
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
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what i have said is ad hominem? I dont think you know what that word means.
regardless. I have not done anything with the Godhead. I disagree with the idea that God will only save who he predestined to save from the beginning as the Calvinist suggest. I feel it tarnishes the beauty of the Gospel. Yes.
You can check out:
http://sbctoday.com/wp-content/uplo...al-Southern-Baptist-Soteriology-SBC-Today.pdf
Norman Geisler
Adrian Rogers
for people whom I agree with.
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