Featured free will vs. election???????

you mis-understand what I have stated again friend--Man cannot save himself PERIOD.Adam could have chosen to not eat of the tree--but he is like all other men--he loved that which was forbidden--Man chooses evil over God and the pleasures of this life over Christ--man does this because he loves sin and not God--all you are doing is giving man a excuse to have before God by saying he is bound and can do nothing--he can do something and he wills to do evil.

Yes God does the choosing--because man will never choose God --not because he has no free will--but because he uses his free will to choose evil
And its totally by Grace anyone is saved--but man is to blame and not God--man chooses Sin--BUT God chooses man.:love2::love2:

 

They proof text John 1:13 and skip over John 1:12 where RECEIVING Christ came before getting the POWER TO BECOME the sons of God. In Calvnism, you get the POWER to RECEIVE. They got it backwards.

And then there's the matter of them constantly refering to faith as a gift which is NO WHERE in the Bible, based on ONE VERSE (EPH 2:8) that is misquoted where salvation is the gift, not faith.

And of course the timely missue of Romans 9 where the entire context is related to CORPORATE ISRAEL and not individual salvation. Paul makes it clear who he's talking about in Romans 9:3 "my KINSMEN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH". Calvinists rip 3 texts out of Romans 9 and build a false doctrine around it, and completely leave Israel out of the future (which is why most Calvinists do not believe in the Rev 20:4 thousand year reign-amellenialism).

 

We only believe by the power of God, Eph. 1:19. Faith comes from His Word Romans 10:17, not from within, it is not inherent, it is supernatural and outside of our person. I've heard illustrations like yours for years -- similar to this: 'Faith is simply like sitting in a chair and believing it will support you, that is all you have to do with Jesus' and disregards faith as a gift and that it is supernatural and it is by Gods power we are able to believe, again Eph. 1:19. If you sincerely believe all they have to do is decide, well, get on a PA system and have them all vote 'yes'.

In context they say (with some word study on your part) that it is not by mans determinitive choice, or mans will. But you say it is mans will. God rejects that. It's thus all by Him and not us.

All elect were predestined. Elect and saved are synonymous terms.

Kosmos does not mean every single person -- it means an age. None can believe without God's power and belief isn't mental assent. Many persons have been deceived with this 'all you have to do is choose' and they are still as lost as ever -- no fruit.

'Whosoever' refers to the elect whom He calls and saves, 1 Peter 1:1ff, and it is He that makes us willing, not us. We were enemies and hostile toward Him ...then 'but God' and He gets ALL the glory.

It is God's means and because we are commanded to do so. Read carefully Paul's attitude on this in 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

 

webdog

 

Where did I say that?

J? Is that you? Say it ain't so!

 

Not at all -- for you cannot see what you are really saying yourself.

 

Why are you so suspicious? I have no agenda. Faith is listed as a fruit of the spirit along with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, Meekness, temperance:........

I have said NOTHING of saving faith that God gives. This spiritual gift is something else because it is listed along with other gifts that are only present in a spiritually indwelt man.

Why start an argument where there is none?

 

So you would ascend verse 12 above verse 13 of John 1?

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

It is not good that I have to correct your interpretation of this passage.

Look to how John sequences the narrative.

He first states an action and then a qualifier or more information about that subject (see bold).

He does the very same thing in that latter part of the paragraph. He states an action and then he states the steps taken for that action.

Are you so hung up in trying to prove your point of view that you missed the actual rendering of the Scriptures?

 

yes my friend I do see what im saying--the ONLY difference in what you and I are saying here is that you are giving man an excuse to present before God if he is never saved in this life and I am not giving man that excuse but holding man himself FULLY accountable before God.:love2::love2:

 

Brother Herald, thanks for the encouraging words.I agree that 2tim2
comes into play on this:
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

In order to grow and practice this....opposition must come in what ever form it takes...
Sometimes there are hostile persons who get frustrated when called to account.The frustration leads to the hostility. The hostility let's me know that most likely I am doing what i should be ,although I need to improve how to communicate,and sharpen my discernment as to where the defective theology manifests.
Away from the keyboard the Lord is providing daily opportunities to address gospel issues with those who are outside the Kingdom. the friction and interaction here ,and hearing the errors expressed...sharpens us for gospel presentations in face to face encounters.
When the level of discourse sinks to a base level as it does on here ,more than it should we all lose in that no one makes progress....
There are a core of persons that are coming just to resist.
There are honest inquirers
There are those who are graceful and encourage
There are some who impart good knowledge

With my current job...I have time that many others do not have to participate.
Others who are more qualified do not make time for it...because of the base nature of the resistance. In time as error is exposed it will change.

 

He 'switched gears " when the poster began to deviate from a mainstream biblical path....as he should have.

 

Straw man (i.e. you assumptively misrepresent me).

'So that they are without excuse' (Romans 1:20) indictment comes from general revelation and is an indictment upon all of mankind. In other words, all are already guilty before God -- prior to the general and effectual call to salvation.

 

We should be on PA systems proclaiming Gods promise to those who believe. Thats why open air preaching was and should still be a very big thing we are doing. As for "people say they believe but they act the same", we can make a discussion on what, a heart felt decision looks like. Furthermore our Gospel presentation should represent that. Ephesians 1:19, doesnt speak at all towards this.. not sure why your using it. Actually Ephesians 1 is a great passage as it talks of the Predestined life of the new believer. I have no doubt that God has a predestined path for those who believe. I call it Heaven

Not sure what this even means. However it is clear that we need to believe in Jesus and His redemptive work, refer back to John 3:16

Yes ok.. but this is bad logic.

1) Elect were predestined
2) elected are saved people
3) all saved people were predestined

Your first premise I disagree with thus the rest crumbles.

you will need to talk to Strongs about the definitions as that's who you are disagreeing with.

False converts are a problem, we need to preach the full coin of Faith, which includes repentance.

Thats a Great passage to get into the trenches to save people.... this doesn't work for you. If God Predestines and Elects them, it is not as if we have some midas touch to awaken them to their inner self. We shake people violently to the truth of the Gospel that they might humble themselves to Christ. I agree that in the fullness of time, God knows who the elect will be, but he makes no such mention of forcing their hands in making them such.

 

So God argues with Himself? God decreed for us to believe as we do...and then for us to try to convince each other different than what He decreed

I've never once said Adam was only 'wounded'.

No, Awaked has done what God wants us to do...'let US reason TOGETHER says the Lord.'

...and this is not a carnal, philosophical term? :laugh:

Thanks for the offer.

 

I see that we agree not to agree its alright

but im not teaching free will like your mindset has it to be set in stone--by no means do I hold to the way the mainstream teaches free will--they make man able to save himself--I do no such thing--but I do not neglect that man is totally responsible for his actions either.

 

Ach

:applause:Yes....Herald is also a sinner saved by grace,and an encouragement and has a greater degree of gift than I do. Herald has a more gracious spirit than I do...and quite honestly could shred you and your ideas like childs play.
He does not desire to 'waste time' with someone who cannot let His yes ,be yes and his no, no.
You do not feel you need to change...you do what you want. Others do also.
from what you are posting there are several areas {other than the Obvious incident} there are other areas where you post extreme error...such as
hebrews is written for Jewish tribulation saints...not gentile christians???
That is what happens when you set yourself apart from the mainstream confessions of faith...you wind up with all manner of error,as you, Van, and Winman demonstrate in virtually every post.

Your boasting of no creed....is a creed in and of itself.You by your own testimony are not accountable to anyone....but you are;
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit

 

Cool. Now, I ask kindly, please don't misrepresent my position in the future.

I'll reiterate -- you clearly do not see what you are really saying. I've been where you are, when you understand this side you will then see clearly this error and not until then.

 

webdog

hello WD

No....that is a strange idea.....let's think about that again...

As it has already come to pass it is ordained.the interaction we have is for a reason. That reason belongs to God.Sometimes i believe it is used by God to make us seek Him in his word that much more ...and to be approved

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

.

Of course not! You would not say that in the way I have written it because you know that would be WRONG:thumbsup:
And yet,as I observe your posts....what you post ....the content of it , can only be posted if you have a wounded Adam. That is how i see your posts and others in here. If you saw it the same way...we would not be at odd's as often as we are.

If my guess is right...Awakened is somewhat startled as he should be, that there are many branches of theology inter twined to sort these things out.
His head is probably swimming right now ...as he is trying to take in much data in a short amount of time. he is going with an emotional base for now, but that will change in time.

No..it is a biblical term and biblical teaching and philosophy as Jesus opened it up in Jn 8:type:

Anytime WD....

 

I have been on your side--your not seeing what im saying because you are putting it in the mold of what others teach about free will--I am not doing so.

your mindset is already set in stone and you cant see but 1 meaning of free will and truly that is the wrong meaning --but that's not the meaning I am bringing forth friend--if what you say is correct--then man is not responsible for his actions because he is bound and can do nothing--but the fact of the matter is man chooses with his will to do evil because he is evil--that is using his free will to choose--and he will choose evil everytime--my friend it is man's fault and not God's for man's condition--man has the ability to choose but he chooses evil--therefore God has to intervene on man's account or he will NEVER be saved in this life. I think its clear as mud myself--sorry you cant see it yet.:love2::love2:

 

I can't see but one meaning of free will? lol...

What I said was, and what this was about is that the lost do not have free will.

You're having serious trouble staying on topic.

That and yet again you bring in another straw man, and top it with a red herring as you continue to misrepresent my position.